Wanting to be fair, don’t want to be taken advantage of - I am landowner

[Jeff]

80ft tall White Cedar? That's pretty huge. Did you core sample to show they are not rotten?

[jonesy_007]

Yes. There is some rot on about 1 in 20 up to about 18" - 2ft at most. 1 in about 100 trees are totalled by woodpeckers. Of the 160 trees ready for pickup there is no more rot than mentioned. Now, that will be cut off of course. If you looked at a map of Canada or Ontario cedar areas and I am literally in the darkest green of the area. Never, ever been cut. The picture I just tried to upload (it was over the 1000kb limit so it didn't work) showed a pile. The pile is literally 18" diameter cedars about 40 to 60 feet tall. Now, those are being sold. But that's just the trail from South to North to get to the actual cedar trees that I am focussed on. Where 2' diameter is low end of average and 60 ft is small. So yeah, it's a pretty absurd amount and size of cedar. I started this with the intent on creating better whitetail habitat because the entire forest floor is barren due to cedar canopy cover. Also, the deer can no longer reach the branches on the mature trees for food even on their hind legs.

[Jeff]

Use the gallery to post your photo. It resizes. 

[Jeff]

I think your screwing yourself by not using a forester that may have a multiple market knowledge that Joe Logger may not have access to. Cedar logs that large and long are probably highly desirable highend cabin logs.  A good forester working with you can make you far more than you may ever realize trying to market yourself to a given mill.

[jonesy_007]

I am not very old, but old enough to not be able to find the gallery lol! Sorry for such a hassle today!
I have videos of the skidder pulling some trees down etc... I am so thankful for everyone's opinion today.

[Jeff]

Link is in the menu

[leeroyjd]

Is the landing not on your property? I've worked bigger jobs and can't recall moving wood much more than a mile from furthest point and those usually involved crossing another property, with permission of course.

[ehp]

where is this ?, you talked in Kms so I'm guessing Canada, 6 kms haul to a landing a truck can pick up from is very hard , way to far for any skidder to do so maybe a big forwarder if you lane way is good enough to handle the weight or wait till its froze up and put the landing back at your bush where the trees are . I have seen us do over 40 kms to where the hwy trucks can pick up , 

[chep]

A 4+ mile skid. That's where you lose me. Oh the fuel oh the misery. Couldn't listen to enough podcast lol
Get trucks closer to the wood everyone makes more money in less time. In fact I've never even heard of a 4 mile skid.
I'd say the logger is spot on 70:30 for that length skid. He prob tried it at 50:50 and say no way. I can't imagine production is high enough 
 Wait? Did you say a 4 mile + skid? No way

[Magicman]

There was no Licensed Forester and written and recorded contract? 

[Ron Scott]

Have a professional consulting forester serving your area exam and appraise your timber and then set up the most effective and efficient logging plan for your ecosystem.

Have the consulting forester determine the volume and minimum value of the timber to be put out on bids to the respectable loggers serving your area. Then have the consulting forester administer the harvest on through to completion so the harvest meets your objectives as planned in accordance with the terms of the timber harvest contract prepared by the consultant.

The 4-mile skid trail may have to be planned out over a muti-year timber harvest with cutting/payment units allowing for the
development of a seasonal truck haul road as a minimum. A 4-mile skid is not efficient and effective.

The other choices may be a hel1copter or ballon operation if the timber values are as high as stated.

[SwampDonkey]

I'm just curious of $1000 white cedar. Like Jeff mentioned, they must be selling at a log home cedar market. I can't imagine anyone attempting a job with a 4 mile skid though. That's a bit wild. I live in cedar country here and we do get 36" white cedar, 60-70 feet tall, but mainly if they grow in with maple and ash on upland sites. Down in pure cedar ground the diameter is smaller and the stems thicker and the ground a bit wetter, usually winter logging and hauling on winter roads. The bigger cedar here is pretty scarce these days as mostly those stands get clearcut. If you try to leave cedar trees behind they most certainly blow down due to their growth habit and soil type. And what a mess. Don't be surprised if the realized revenues don't come close to that figure. There can be a lot of rot in old growth cedar. It might be good stuff in one area, then worst in another. Mostly our cedar markets pay around $160 a cord. I've always felt white cedar was undervalued, now good cedar is lot more scarce. Most cedar mills here are closed down. There is one small mill near here, but he is sawing mostly fence boards or raised bed gardening stuff, you could make bird houses, but it's pretty low quality lumber due to knots and defect. 

 Log homes here by comparison are mainly spruce or pine logs. I have only been to one cedar log cabin here, which was a fishing camp. And was newly built at the time. This was 35 years ago. The cedar was sawed square. Even the floor and the door was cedar. Smells nice to. 

I'd suggest getting a road in there, is this 'lane' a crown reserved right of way?

If you have a lot of deer there, they will be hard on the cedar regen. Not many deer up here, maybe 3-6 hang together in groups over large areas. A lot of coyotes around here.  Cedar regenerates well here because of low browse pressure.

Your split on logger/landowner may work in your area, but 80/20 is closer to the split here. Often a land survey is needed. Line evidence, if it was ever marked at all, is usually long gone in these parts. In my area, private woodlot owners rarely hire foresters to administer logging and such. It just has never been practiced. We have woodlot owner groups here, and most, if any consulting, is done through those associations. They might account for 5%. But pretty much all the wood scale passes through their doors, as the truckers usually get a cheque off the scale bill and all wood is tracked through them because of chain of custody laws.

Well, I've rambled on enough. 

[jonesy_007]

I will try to answer everything from the last posts in this one.
1 - Trail is already cut to property. No logging truck will ever make it back to this property. The skidder has already been in and out many times. It's a 30 minute drive in with the skidder empty and 1 hour drive out with 16 logs near 40 ft long being hauled (very large skidder makes it no problem). Skidder was $30,000 ready to work (used of course).
2 - The logger had been in many times and knew the trail when he agreed to the 50/50 as he lost his mind on the amount of timber (you can stand anywhere on my properties and look in all four directions and count 50-100 20" diameter plus cedars on dry land on bedrock). I was offering not only 50/50 on the cedar but everything. I have untouched sugar maples 36" diameter as well and 80 ft plus tall and veneer quality. So, I felt that simplifying things rather than negotiating separate rates for everything made more logistical sense.
3 - The trail in, spring, late fall and early winter is muddy in about 5 spots. The rest is bedrock (limestone actually).
4 - And a final note, I pulled out with my ATV and utility trailer enough wood last summer in a weekend to build a 8x12 cedar log sauna at my cottage 30 minutes away. That's me, alone with a chainsaw cutting small stuff (8" diameter to those specific lengths). Cedar is light. Can haul three times as much based on weight vs hardwood. So, I cut and hauled 20 8ft pieces, and 20 12ft pieces on my own (being old and with a herniated disc in my back) with an ATV and ATV utility trailer in about 8 hours total work felling, limbing and hauling without proper tools.
4 - Yes, it's north central Ontario on the largest freshwater island in the world. The trail in is deeded legal right of way. No permission required.
5 - I had a licensed forestry plan done on the property previously. Species breakdown etc... I have a large logging company that also owns a mill ready to write a cheque. But as mentioned I was hoping to help a guy start a logging company as he has always worked for others. I figured him netting $2M after any reasonable expenses over two years would have done that. Maybe I misunderstood the logging market or dollar signs for pupils I am feeling now.
6 - I may outsource some university kids, lend them my ATVs, trailer and a truck and have them do it because if I could make those hauls on my own the way I did knowing the drive is 45 minutes to the mill and I have 3/4 ton diesel trucks and big trailers I could give these guys $100,000 for a summers worth of work and put $300,000 in my pocket doing it piece work and Red Greening it.
Ultimately I think the logger got greedy at this point. I was a golden goose as a friend of mine reached out today who has done this before and in his words waiting 2 years for full payment comes with the logger making concessions. Up front payment, land owner makes concessions. Either I sell to the big firm and stop a guy from building an enterprise, give him a chance to redeem himself or hire some of my younger family friends who have some experience do it. I negotiated all the buyers and trucking and all he had to do was cut and haul... I feel good that 50/50 was more than fair at this point.
Restaurants clear 10-15% at best after all expenses, Renovation companies (I know, I owned one) are happy at 20-30% after expenses, Commercial Glass companies are 10% - 30% after expenses (I know, I owned one), Real Estate Rentals carry an 8% on average income return after expenses (I owned many), Realotrs make about 2% after expenses (I know, I am related to many). At 50% any foreseeable expense with an estimated sale of $5,000,000 worth of timber would have given this logger $2.5M... at the highest possible rate of 30% after expenses would be $750,000 net. That's assuming he had $1.75M in expenses over those two years... I don't know, I am pretty sure that's super reasonable on my part. I don't see anything over $250,000 in expenses over two years even hiring a crew.
It's safe to say, I don't feel like a jerk anymore 🙂

[leeroyjd]

Who bought the Skidder and what make/model is it?

[jonesy_007]

Timberjack 450b - I found that too and negotiated a deal then he decided to buy it on his own. Needed one new main line cable for the winch, a fuel filter change and had to unfreeze the diesel as it arrived in March up north.
He to his credit he did all that work on his own time and dime but that was about $3,000 in parts and calculating his time. Took about 3 days of work.
That was end of March, it's been running and working perfectly hauling since then and still no revenue to me 🤔

[TreefarmerNN]

Timberjack 450b - I found that too and negotiated a deal then he decided to buy it on his own. Needed one new main line cable for the winch, a fuel filter change and had to unfreeze the diesel as it arrived in March up north.
He to his credit he did all that work on his own time and dime but that was about $3,000 in parts and calculating his time. Took about 3 days of work.
That was end of March, it's been running and working perfectly hauling since then and still no revenue to me 🤔

You can only be taken advantage of if you allow it.  No money for a month of cutting?  Kick him off the site today.

[PJS]

As a newer landowner, there was a logger here every winter, he got 60 I got 40 because it was a long skid. He got injured on another job and is on the recovery.

I ended up buying a timberjack processor and a forwarder to do some of the work myself because I'm didn't grow up chainsawing much. The work is a lot, and there's still places where he will have to log cause I can't get in with machines, breakdowns are real, what you think might be easy isn't as easy as you start out think. I've learned a lot in the last year of owning equipment, it is not for the faint of heart as many have already mentioned but I also didn't want to deal with the headache of other loggers after stories like this.

Right now, I call the mill when I've got wood out and they send the truck and direct deposit the money, so far anyways lol.

If the wood is still sitting on the landing, call the trucking you've arranged and send it to the mill and get the cheque in your name. Pay him his 50% and let him decide if he wants to continue doing business at the agreed upon rate.

If not, hire the big guy but be careful, it's not about what you take out, it's about what you're leaving behind that makes the best deer habitat. A select cut is probably a better option if you don't need all the money. I've got lots of wildlife back in where the dense bush I've thinned out immensely. They love the tops, especially the cedar in the winter months, and they bed down under in the dense young spruce/balsam patches

[fluidpowerpro]

In my past life my experience has been that whenever a customer explained to me my cost structure, it never ended well.
My costs were my business and his costs were his.
Each party is responsible for their own bottom line.

[Mooseherder]

I don't think that's the case here. He is trying to help someone prosper. Found him a skidder. Then the guy wants to renegotiate on the opinion of another logger who hasn't seen the lot.  I'd have to really like this guy for him to stay.  He isn't going to find the best market, novice and all anyway.

[YellowHammer]

I've been reading this thread, and have to say, I am a little stunned if I read this right.  I am having trouble believing this is a real situation.   

Let me summarize and see if I have this correct:  You have millions of dollars of timber, a guaranteed check of several million from a big company who most likely is trying to put the screws to you (that's why they are a big company), and yet you want to work the deal yourself, a non professional landowner, and do business with a non professional small time logger who is erratic at best and already has shown his incompetence if not outright dishonesty?  Or work with a local university so their kids can get killed on your property and sue you for everything you own?  Those are your options for a multi million dollar, multi year deal?     

You don't have a pro timber broker, or a pro law firm, or any professional in the business to protect you and your land, whether dealing with either the big company or the small time guy already playing you like a fish?  Or the local university which would be a joke?  Oh, plus the timber market is a commodity market and the values of timber changes weekly? And you are worried about reimbursement of $3K of skidder line?  And asking for advice on a multi million dollar deal on a Forum you just joined two days ago?    Hmmmm.....

Am I missing something? 

I actually have trouble believing this is a true situation, it seems too farfetched to me, especially considering the magnitude of the money involved, and the lack of legal and professional counsel and protection.

The short answer is YES, you are being taken advantage of by everyone or soon will be.  Simple as that, from my viewpoint.  A hunk of meat in an ocean full of hungry sharks best describes your situation, and you are already bleeding from the leg with no life preserver on.  What's to keep the guy you have already employed from filing a lien against you and shut you down?  Or a made up or real, workplace injury claim?  Do you have insurance for such? 

Anyway, in an earlier post you said to be honest with you, and this is my opinion. 

[LeftFinger]

Just to add t0 YHs post  Make sure the man has Paid up Workers Comp before you let him on the property or you could be stuck with a bill from the government later

[Andries]

Good advice for an unbelievable situation LeftFinger.
It's Saskatchewan advice for a story in Ontario, but I'm having trouble believing it's anything but a story.
There's been plenty of good advice given and three pages of it is plenty enough for an issue that is unbelievable.
Credibility is missing and so is common sense. 

[Plankton]

All very good points yellowhammer. If I had a landowner approach me with 2 million$ worth of timber but wanted me to skid 4 miles I would walk it and first thing flag out a truck road, get necesarry permits and move the excavator over and punch in a truck road to the middle or best spot of the lot. Seems like the timber value and or volume is exxagerated and this whole situation is a little far fetched.

Did you buy a skidder for this guy or just find a listing? If you just found it which is what it sounds like and he bought it and paid for the repairs why would you be expecting money for that? My good friend found the listing for the skidder im currently running never once has either of us considered i owe him money...

[Freedy201]

One thing I've seen work well with shared harvests is using a third-party scaler or forester to document and track loads. Takes the guessing and trust issues out of the mix. Some co-ops or extension offices offer help with this too

[TreefarmerNN]

Hmm- moderator please move to the thread "Wanting to be fair".

Thank you.