Wanting to be fair, don’t want to be taken advantage of - I am landowner

[Jeff]

How many times is this topic going to pop up somewhere else? The moderator has other things to do!!

[barbender]

Maybe I did something wrong when I tried to merge the three original posts, Jeff.

[customsawyer]

[Jeff]

Maybe I did something wrong when I tried to merge the three original posts, Jeff.

Nah

[cutterboy]

Well if nothing else it's certainly been an interesting read.

[jonesy_007]

Just to be clear, the numbers are real. We are in Canada and our prices are at Canadian dollar (so, value being the same, $2M Canadian at this moment is worth about $1.35M US).

Regarldess, this is not fiction.

You can't cut a road for a transport to this property, ever.

And yes, I really did want to help this guy. I am a long time business person who was reasonably fortunate so I don't really need the money but didn't want to be taken for a ride either.

In Northern Ontario as far as I can tell, there aren't many situations other than bringing in a big mill that landowners or loggers get consultants involved in but I have now due to recommendations.

I never mentioned I bought the skidder. I was going to, but then after seeing all the value I had he bought it, fixed it and as I mentioned in my post about the skidder "to his credit he paid for and fixed".

I guess, trying to be a nice guy I got kicked in the you know what.

I didn't want the big logging company in there because I wanted some control on the cuts, the mess and leaving all the limbs there for a burn to increase soil quality.

I have learned a lot in this process listening to most of you, but to be accused of being a liar by someone (this being a "story") that was unnecessary, unkind and untrue. If you don't have a sincere offer of guidance or something nice to say be like Grandma used to say "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all".

I did say don't hold back, but the implied request was whether I am being taken or if I was taking advantage NOT whether I was lying.

Thank you all for your time and remember kindness goes a lot further than calling someone a liar or a storyteller without any evidence at all...

[Jeff]

You dont understand sir. We have been here for 25 years and our members have 1000's of years of combined experience and knowledge. Some of your statements lead many of us to wonder about this conversatiion. Some of the questioning comes from Canadian members with wide reaching closely related experiences. When you start talking about 100ft white cedar, to me, I scratch my head. I live in a Northern White cedar area within earshot of the Ontario border. A 60ft tree here is a flipping monster. The next town to my west is actually named Cedarville

So, if you can't take the questioning from true experts to get to your answers, that is another big red flag and we wonder why.  We've seen it all here. Stories that lead to cons included. It is our task to help those that come here, and also to find the facts where we have doubts

[jonesy_007]

Jeff, thank you for your guidance and feedback. Again, no "story" here but that doesn't matter.
Appreciate all of you and your time. I won't waste any more.
I currently feel very unwelcome here and will proceed in a different direction.
Almost all of you were thoughtful and considerate while some were just ignorant.
Jeff, if you look at the north American map of Cedar density and size I am in the darkest of dark areas. And within that area my area is one of only maybe 1000 acres that has never, ever been cut.
So, whether you believe me or not, it's neither here nor there.
I don't know how I could "con" any of you by asking a question? I didn't ask anyone for money or to work my land?!?!
I don't get the "con" statement either.
I signed a think saying I wouldn't be hateful etc... accusing someone of being a liar or a con with no evidence is the definition of hateful.
Sorry for the pushback but I am not going to take that and if I am kicked off this forum so be it.
I was dipping my toe into letting people make money on my property and now feel like being a hoarder and keeping it for my kids and grandkids and dying with it

[treemuncher]

Long read but I am compelled to add my $0.02....

The deal is the deal. If you made a contract, unless both parties agree to renegotiate, the contract should stand. You, the landowner, did not force him into the contract - nothing to feel bad about.

As taught by my father, "A man is only as good as his word." I will lose money before I lose my reputation. The latter can not be purchased, only earned. Yep, I have lost money on this principle but I can always make more money. Rebuilding a reputation is nearly impossible. Stand by your word and honor it.

The logger entered into the contract with both eyes open and knew the length of the skid. He agreed to the 50/50 and should abide by his word whether he is making or losing. I do not care what his logger buddies think, they do not have the job nor the opportunity. A long term job like this is worth a lot in itself, especially for a little guy. If the logger was smart, he would be working on methods to increase efficiency to increase his hourly take, not bitching about what he wants for a bigger share.

[teakwood]

You can't cut a road for a transport to this property, ever.

Why? Is there any law against it? I live in Costa Rica so have no idea what you guys can do and what not, but i do own a quarry and heavy equipment and you won't believe where you can built roads with it

[Jeff]

No one called you a con, I said weve had them before. Stories, then offers of deals. You never know where a road may lead. You are absolutely not unwelcome, but when an individual is called out, including me, I'd do every god *DanG thing in the world to prove my point, not bow out. We aint quitters. Prove yourself.

[leeroyjd]

Jonensy just have someone help post a picture or two. Skidder and log pile, some standing trees. This will help you to get some critical advice.
  I'm real curious what this guy did in the forestry field before becoming involved in this harvest project.

[SwampDonkey]

If it's a crown reserved right of way, you get permission from DNR and you must build the road to standards and laws like the clean water act and such. To build a road to start with, the harvest somehow must cover the cost or otherwise it's not feasible. An excavator road can be built pretty fast. However, I've yet to see anyone get rich off northern white cedar harvests. I know many loggers who have had to sort a harvested pile of cedar at least twice on a job, there was just too much defect and rot in the pile to make much money. Piles of wood left road side unhauled. Some wood in the piles 3' across and hollow, like culverts. A cedar tree like that is 400+ years old. Untouched old growth cedar does not mean fortunes to be had. You have cut only a small sample of wood and probably the cream. And don't confuse prices from a primary forest products producer (you) with something being sold retail after all the sorting, sawing, drying, surfacing, finishing, marketing and distribution as been applied. 

[jonesy_007]

Thank you to tree muncher for your context. I have lived my life that way as well.
Jeff, honest and sincere question here. How can I prove myself not a con or a liar on this forum?
I have tried to post pictures but I get a red text box telling me I am not allowed. So, that's been my experience trying to prove my inventory.
Tried in the menu/gallery and it didn't work. Then, tried creating a folder and putting pictures in and I get the same message.

[Jeff]

I built this entire website as I was sitting in a sawbooth. I never took typing in school and only got a computer because my kids needed one. Never has a class or a mentor in the field. I knew nothing about nothing. I think you can figure out how to post pictures as it has been done over 300,000 times before you.

[leeroyjd]

Jonensy it looks like you have two pictures in the gallery,  one looks like a game camera shot. Try loading more in your gallery. Even if you can't post them in a thread we can view in your gallery.  Don't forget to display today's newspaper in one of the pictures.(Joking!)

[Jeff]

There are several pictures in there, but the only one sort of relatable to this topic might be this one. But it only tells me that cedar depicted isn't worth messing with.

[jonesy_007]

Lots of pictures now. I had to change format

[Jeff]

And this one really adds to the clarity of the excuse the word, story. I said story because it is. Stories can be true or false.

[Jeff]

Read the rules again. Post ONLY photos to be placed in a post and once in a post never delete.. I'm not in the photo storage biz.

[Jeff]

And this one really adds to the clarity of the excuse the word, story. I said story because it is. Stories can be true or false.

By the way, you forgot to ink yourself out in the thumbnails. And why screenshots? Post the picture. Screenshots are also flags.

[jonesy_007]

You know what, I don't know why I am trying to prove myself to a bunch of people I don't know.
I was asked to post pictures and I posted some I thought would be helpful in the discussion and get ridiculed.
Some people in the forum were incredibly helpful and I appreciate all of you for that. Please don't let this next part affect how incredibly appreciative I am for you.
For those of you ridiculing me, calling me a liar, a story teller, making fun of me for not being able to post a picture in an archaic platform take a long walk off a short dock.
Some good info - Involve a consultant (took advice and check), I know the value of timber as a large firm made me an offer (used that after realizing an acquaintance needed to be home closer to his kids rather than travelling the province cutting hydro lines) to help him out and in this forum I got torn apart (not being a logger or anyone who has ever logged) by a bunch of experts. Experts who know they are experts and are well respected don't talk to people the way some of you talked to me.
Maybe I should take my grandfathers advice from 30 years ago when I was 21 starting to buy up property to "Never trust a logger..." He got raked over the coals once and every time a logger approached him to log his properties after he showed them the door. Many of his friends had similar stories. Maybe that's why a lot of us large land owners are sceptical.
I was incredibly willing to be helpful to someone, but now, screw it, big guy gets the job. And will forever with me. They have legal obligations to honour a contract, when apparently loggers can walk away anytime.
Signing off.. I'm out!

[ehp]

Jeff I know where he is talking about , we looked at buying a couple smaller islands just off the big one . We could not come to a real price so we passed on it but the guys that bought the islands went broke in less than a year . You will not skid 4 miles with a skidder , I donot care how big it is cause we have been down that road , even a big forwarder which makes more sense still is going to be hard to produce enough to make any coin or make sense . Your lane way looks good to you right now , put a skidder over it for a solid week and see what it looks like , it will be pure mud and rock and rougher than you could ever think , remember this is not our first rodeo , been there done that , Log it in the winter and send a bulldozer down the lane way and make it wide enough for the log trucks to get back to the trees and freeze the road in. $1,000 a 1000 is at the mill, you still got to pay trucking and which mill are you going to send to cause most mills in that area are shut down now or only running at a very slow pace cause no lumber sales, I think this land owner is missing the big point , first I would like to see the $1,000 a 1000 in my hand , next it looks like you want $500/1000 for the timber so that leaves the logger if you can get $500/1000, He has to pay trucking and that depends on what mill your trucking to so $150 to $200/1000 is normal , so now he is down to $300/1000. Going rate around here for lots of loggers is $250/1000 to cut and skid and thats 10 feet up to maybe 1/4 of a mile at the longest . Logging cost is way to high in Canada, You put a big skidder at a 4 mile skid and just see what the fuel cost is cause the skidder is pulling as big of loads as it can, We use to fill up every 4 hours cause machines would not go 6 hours on a full tank . And last thing is the cedar on those other islands was not that good, lot of rot on the stump on the big trees , I'm more than happy on how it turned out that we did not get it cause that was going to be a hard job to deal with

[ehp]

and the islands were full of rattle snakes and I mean full , you seen lots everyday 

[jonesy_007]

As I was logging out for the final time I caught EHP note.
No, I offering 50/50 AFTER logging costs (in my first post and others answering the same question over and over). The logger was responsible for cutting and hauling to landing cut to size.
No rattle snakes on this island. Like, none. Ever. I have walked this island for 40 years and never seen or heard one.
Just for context