Whatcha Sawin' 2025 ??

[WV Sawmiller]

    I drove a little over 38 miles today to saw the logs in the first picture. The customer had the second stack but he was uncertain if they would make decent lumber. I told them they would all make good lumber but some on the second stack might be a little small but that they were better than many I end up sawing.

    I sawed half a dozen or so and my forward/reverse frum switch failed so I replaced it. Then the up down quit and I kept checking and troubleshooting and finally wiggled the right connection I guess because it resumed work just fine. Sawed a log or two after that and one of (Middle one of course) the fingers on the drum switch pupped out of the plastic block it is pressed in so I manually edged the last 2 2X6s on the loading arms and packed it in with only 431 bf of 8/4 poplar and 6/4 Red oak. (Oops - no final picture)

   I came home and ordered a replacement switch which will ship from Atlanta tomorrow. On the way home I stopped to refuel the mill and a couple of cans 25 miles from home and a former customer pulled in behind me and started talking and I mentioned the switch and he asked if it could be repaired. I had never thought about it but could not see why not so I mixed up a little epoxy and pressed it back in place. We had a thunderstorm imminent so I'll let it set overnight and see if that works. If not there is nothing really lost.

   Have any of you ever had the drum switch finger pop out like that? I have had it happen a couple of times and wonder if I have installed it with too much stress on it?

[Magicman]

I continue to be mystified with your drum switch failures.  As I have mentioned before, both of the drum switches on my 1998 sawmill are original even though some of the contacts are completely worn off.  Hopefully they will continue to hold together because it appears that today's switches are poor quality.  It doesn't make sense.  

BTW, nice whack of logs.    I am scheduled to saw next week but the weather forecast does not look favorable.  We shall see.

[Old Greenhorn]

I share Lynn's mystification. Those are, or were Square-D drum switches (which are not cheap and come in more than a few pole configurations), perhaps they found another vendor that copied them, but I have worked with those switches on dozens of machines since the late 60's and they are rated for many thousands of cycles, but usually used for on/off. They are very high quality. When I first opened up a WM control box I recognized them right away, but they remove the covers when they install them in the box. The feed switch and the up/down switch, as I recall have two different pole configurations. Although I believe they get a lot of cycles in a WM machine compared to the usual 'on/off' of more conventional machines like lathes, mills, and drill presses I have never seen the failure rates or the failure types you are experiencing, The most common, and if fact the only failure type I have fixed is worn contacts points, high resistance, and rarely contact overheating. I have never seen contacts falling out
 Hate to say it, but I just have a gut feel something else is going on here.

[WV Sawmiller]

   Yes, they are Square D switches. 

Here is a picture of the first one that failed yesterday. You can see the hole in the plastic black on the switch in the middle where finger came out. There is evidence of heat but I don't know at what stage that occurred. Both switches did the same thing with the middle finger pulling out of the switch. The plastic is gone off the end of this finger but was still on the other one I tried to repair last night.

Here is a picture of the repaired switch after I reattached the clip on the end of the middle green wire. I don't see any movement of the wires as I toggle switch on and off so I don't see where that should loosen anything.



Here is the view before I buttoned up the control panel so you can see the handle and switch placement in the box.

   The repairs seem to be working and the mill head moves properly fore and aft so I will make the same repair to the switch shown in the first picture. I have a new one en route but will keep an extra spare if a dab of epoxy (Super glue should work just as well I bet) will repair it.

    My concern is I still don't know what caused the problem. I don't really see any other way to attach the wires or mount the switch and handle to the box.

    If you spot something please let me know.

[Magicman]

I would only use JBWeld.  

While it's not a problem, that surely is a lot of copper showing outside of those spade connectors.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well I am not there and can't feel anything to see what other clues there might be. But I do see some things that perhaps you could look closer at. First, if that terminal pulled out of the bakelite switch block, it was likely due to excessive heat. Can you smell any residual heat odor?
 Second, that middle green wire looks like it has seen some heat. I see some discoloration near the terminal and also, that terminal crimp appears to be incomplete. Now all this can just be the way the photo appears and not an issue at all, but it's worth checking. I am not too thrilled with how those crimp connections look with all that bare wire exposed and you might consider cutting them back an inch and re-doing them properly with good crimps and good terminals. Any compromise in the physical electrical connection is going to raise the current draw and therefore heat beyond design limits.
 Just a guess from 700 miles away, but I suspect if you find the issue, it will turn out to be a very small detail that has been getting overlooked.

[WV Sawmiller]

  Thanks Tom & Lynn.

  Yes there has been some heat. As to the copper showing yes there is but they are just like I received them from WM. I am not sure I could get the clip to bend to fit under the screw if they were shorter.

  I would not be surprised if the heat helped it pull away from the bakelite in the switch. But why is there excess heat?

  Why JB weld instead of Gorilla Glue brand epoxy? Is it more heat resistant or stronger?

[doc henderson]

you could shrink some heat tubing over the bare copper and at least make it look better.  unlikely to cause trouble buttoned up, but it looks poor with the cover off.  No reason to get angry or frustrated.  I see you twice talked about "pulling your middle finger out" in the thread.  

[Old Greenhorn]

The folks who build these machines and make the wire harnesses are doing thousands and thousands of connections. Every once in a while there is a new person, or somebody having an off day, who will mess one up. All I'm implying is that it is suspect. If the connection is not 100% tight it will increase the current draw which causes heat. An easy way to get a basic check is to give that wire a yank and if it comes out, there is your sign. I have seen a wide variety of failures at connection points, including wires being crimped on the insulation rather than the wire itself or being crimped past the end of the wire and just barely holding on. It happens and is hard to find unless you start yanking on things (within reason).
 Just trying to help.

[Magicman]

a dab of epoxy (Super glue should work just as well I bet)

Why JB weld instead of Gorilla Glue brand epoxy?

Maybe it would but I am not familiar with Gorilla epoxy.  You mentioned "Super glue" which alarmed me.  

My opinion is that JBWeld is the gold standard so that is only what I use.  The 30 minute is quick but not as strong as the 24 hour, so I have both.

Those spade tip connections being "factory" is disappointing at best.  Someone in Indy needs to see those pictures but sadly I have lost all of my reliable contacts except Bob.

[WV Sawmiller]

    Well, cyberspace ate another reply as Lynn posted about the same time I did and I can't find it in a draft anywhere.

     I'll tape up those bare wires good with electrical tape just so Lynn doesn't have to look at them again if I post more pictures of them.

    My small engine guy says check all the grounds as that would cause excess heat so I'll do that. 

Tom,

   I'll give them the "pull/yank" test but I am confident all the connections are tight. 

[Magicman]

I went back and looked and as Tom mentioned, I am seeing evidence of excess heat on that center conductor with the discoloration on the wire as well as the insulation.  Heat means a bad connection (resistance) in either the spade tip crimp connection or the drum switch contacts.  This must be located to prevent further such problems. 

Quite frankly I do not like that center spade tip crimp connection at all.  Once copper wires are overheated, they are compromised and will never be satisfactory again.  I would remove it, cut it back, and butt splice a short wire and new spade tip.  That bad factory connection could very well be the cause of all of your problems.  It overheating and taking out the drum switches.  Replace the drum switch and use the same spade tip and take out another drum switch.

[Old Greenhorn]

Yes, Lynn, agreed. You found a more direct way to say what I was trying to imply. Howard, seeing the bare wire is not the issue that bothers Lynn and I. The issue (and I don't want to put words in Lynn's mouth) is that as veterans of tens of thousands of 'clip and crimp' connections both Lynn and I see what might nicely be called sloppy work, and that makes the whole connection suspect. Lynn has probably done a million more than I have over his many years in Telcom. Yes, it's a pain to redo them if you have to splice in wire or whatever, but for me, it would be a no brainer just on principal. If I did it over properly then I KNOW it is done right and can move on with troubleshooting. Additionally, I also notice some light oxidation on that middle wire or discoloration on the copper. This also means heat and as Lynn p[pointed out that copper has begun to break down and is not longer a good conductor, so it needs to be cut back to clean wire.
Lastly, those drum switches are made with non-replicable contacts. So if that contact got hot enough to melt out the Bakelite then there is a very slim chance that you can replace the contact with any kind of glue and still have the low resistance conduction through the switch contacts, at least, not reliably. Those contacts need a fair amount of contact force.
Last idea: do you have a infrared digital thermometer? They are cheap at HF and if you run the mill for a bit and keep checking the temp rise on those contacts and see jut what you are dealing with. You may even be able to tell if it is the contact points, the terminal, or the finger where the sharpest heat rise is. Those thermometers can be a handy tool for pinpointing issues. One thing I can say for both MM and I is that we both want to see you get this 'forever fixed' correctly.

[Magicman]

Bakelite does not melt.  

With excessive heat, it will get brittle and char, but it will not soften nor melt.  This brittleness is what Howard is experiencing when the contact pulled out.

[Old Greenhorn]

Yes, you are absolutely correct. I used to know that, but had forgotten and now stand corrected. It also has a distinctive odor when it gets that hot.
 But in any event, getting that finger to hold well enough to maintain good contact under pressure is something I think is tough to do once the base material is compromised.

[Magicman]

It also has a distinctive odor when it gets that hot.

distinctive odor he says.  It stinks and you will never forget that smell.  

[Old Greenhorn]

Well yes, that too is more accurate. I can't get that smell out of my head for hours when I'm in it. You post reminds me of that Eastwood Movie quote: "This is an AK-47, it is the preferred weapon of your enemy, it makes a distinctive sound when fired at you" (Hearbreak Ridge).

[WV Sawmiller]

Okay, okay. I am convinced I need to go trim that wire and put a new connector on. I don't know if I have an open end connector like that or would have to use a ring connector. That center wire has definitely been hot.

I am still at a little bit of a loss on that end of the finger as it looks to me like it is just pressed into the block. There is no current or such going out that end. The wire connects to the screw and runs through the finger to the bar when it is moved up or down. 

That was why I said I could not see why supper glue looks like it would hold it in place. The terminal butt end in the picture has bare metal showing but the one I repaired with epoxy was still coated in plastic/bakelite.

Does the "stink" smell like a wearing belt? If so I may have missed it during operation.

I don't have an IR heat gun/gauge but may have to look at them the next time I am in HF.

I guess I will head out to the mill now. If nothing else I will make this thunderstorm go ahead and break free.

Thanks again guys.

I don't care what Doc said about you both I think you are okay.

[Old Greenhorn]

[Old Greenhorn]

Howard it might initially have that smell like a burned belt, but it quickly increases to a pungent smell that will burn you sinuses. Keep in mind that switch is inside a sealed box, so the chance of the odor escaping is low. BUT when you open that box to have a look I bet it will pop right out at you, even as much as a day later there should be a residual smell.
 I know, for me, when I get the smallest whiff of that odor it's like a very loud alarm bell going off in my head. There is no mistaking what it means, and it ain't good.

[GRANITEstateMP]

It's all Tom's Fault!

I was sitting here eating my dinner listening to the thunder storm dump more rain while reading the forum...Then I see it!  A quote from Heartbreak Ridge and now I gotta finish dinner and then find that movie on the free download machine! 

I really do like that movie.  I told my wife that the Big Swede character is based on me   She responded with "You were 5 when that movie came out!"

I told her I was a tough kid, me and the Swede are like two peas in a pod.  Her head shakes so much sometimes, I'm surprised it ain't fallen off!

[barbender]

My wife doesn't have that issue. Her eyes just roll😊

[Old Greenhorn]

Well I should probably say I'm sorry, but I am not. That's a good movie and I can watch it over and over. Just watched it again a couple of weeks ago. Swede, Swede, Swede!. That gives me a new picture of you in my head now.

[GRANITEstateMP]

My wife informed me that I have an active imagination, and should probably schedule an appointment at the optometrist (says what I'm seeing in the mirror ain't no movie star).

Howard,

As someone else pointed out earlier, if your starting to see excess heat, or heat related issues, it might be a good time to check / clean your grounds.  Sometimes adding an extra / new ground helps too.  Hope you get to the source of your gremlins.

[Magicman]

Here you go: