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Texas Flood and loss of Camp Mystic Children and Staff.

Started by doc henderson, July 07, 2025, 08:31:27 AM

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doc henderson

This hits so close to home as I have attended so many of these camps, as a scout and counselor, parent and scoutmaster.  When we went to Philmont, they had a briefing and we heard of kids attacked by bears, and a kid that died in flash flood with a tent next to the river and others from falling off cliffs.  Breaks my heart for these families and other survivors.  Camps are good for a safe place for kids to be kids and get ready to grow up.  I was a camp Doctor while in NY, Kids came for 2 months with a parent weekend in the middle.  Most were wealthy families from NYC.  Very Sad.
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gspren

I agree seeing this happen to kids in what was expected to be a safe environment is especially hard. I was also a scout leader for quite a few years and am happy to have never had a serious incident or accident happen. We took many canoe trips on local streams and rivers plus 3 trips to some wild areas in Quebec. 
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Dan_Shade

I'm at scout camp this week with our troop.  It's very sad what occured in Texas.  It must have happened very fast.

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JD Guy

It's very tragic and I suspect that there's nothing that can predict such a catastrophic weather event..maybe an early warning system could be engineered to prevent this from ever happening again. Prayers for all of the families.

Ianab

Quote from: JD Guy on July 08, 2025, 11:38:31 AMmaybe an early warning system could be engineered to prevent this from ever happening again
There were warnings issued, but they only went to mobile phones. The kids would likely have handed their phones in to the camp office. Also not sure if it was an emergency alert system, or just a txt message that you wouldn't bother looking at at 4:03 am.  I know the local Civil Defense phone alert goes off like a siren and would wake you up, but it still relies on you having your phone. 

There had previously been a push to get warning sirens set up along the river as flash floods aren't unknown in the area. Like tornado warnings that some areas have, or the tsunami alarms we have in coastal areas towns here. But the powers that be said it was too expensive. Can't even blame Elon for the cost cutting, some locals have been trying to get warning sirens installed since 2017.

I guess they will get them now, but that's a bit late. 

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beenthere

My suspicion is that the warnings were there, but not interpreted as they should have been. Maybe ignored as the "Crying wolf" or "flash flood" warning wasn't a big deal over the course of time. Unfortunately it happens.

I spent time in western New Mexico in the 60's and heard about "flash floods" bringing walls of water from heavy rains in the hills wiping out most of what was in the path at lower levels, turning a dry wash into a raging torrent.   As time went on, here in Wisconsin the weather predictors adopted the "flash flood" terminology when the expected results of a heavy rain only meant some street flooding with standing water because the storm drains couldn't remove the water fast enough. Not much "flash" or sudden about it. 

I've not heard what message the weather reports were sending out, nor who might have been listening or interpreting such warnings that were issued. Whatever or whomever was involved, need now to hone these warnings and alert all responsible for their piece of the pie that failed here (and there were many, not the least the campground leaders in the path of the flash flood/ wall of water) to be more responsive to the warnings.

We get tornado warnings issued, but I don't head to the basement or shelter every time I hear them. Maybe if I was responsible for 300 or 350 campers, I would act differently.

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Bert

Great Point Beenthere. Weather warnings are kind of a joke. Tornado warnings and it doesnt even rain. Same with flood warnings and watches. Some of the worst snow storms we've had that I can remember around here besides nor'easters werent even predicted. Mother Natures gonna do what she does.
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Ianab

Thing is there were warnings, just they didn't reach the folks that needed to know, probably because they were asleep. This sort of event IS hard to predict ahead of time, but once it starts the info is there with rain radar, remote rain gauges and river flow measurement. Folks would have been watching the disaster unfold on their screen, but had no way to get the message out to everyone. An extra 15 mins might have saved a LOT of lives, rather than waking up when their cabin started to float away. 

I get what you say about the tornado warning, it's a "general area" sort of thing, that conditions are ripe for a tornado to form. 99% of the time it's not going to hit you. But at least you might go outside and look around. It gives you that heads up, and if there is a big ugly cloud heading your way, you know to take cover. 
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scsmith42

Doc,

Back in the mid 1980's I lived for two years on a 2500 acre ranch located on the headwaters of the Nueces River in Real County, Texas. The headwaters of four major Texas rivers are all in Real County (pronounced Ray-all), including the Nueces, the Sabinal, the Guadalupe and the Frio Rivers. On our ranch, there were around 4 million gallons of water per day that flowed out of the springs on the ranch and they formed the bulk of the headwaters of the river.

The telephone system was a "party line" that served nine different ranches. Each ranch had their own distinctive ring so you knew when to pick up the phone and when to ignore the incoming call. The phone wires were two bare steel wires on insulators attached to the fence on the 9 mile dirt road coming into the ranch. The background hum was so bad that you would have thought that you were in a 3rd world country. The rumor was that the locally owned telephone company had purchased their equipment in 1960 - when Southwestern Bell had obsoleted it!

In the photo below, the main lodge and cabins are situated in the pecan grove on the right bank of the river in the center of the photo.

Lodge and River V.jpg


My brother Jeff using the "swinging rope" that hung from a pecan limb over the river.

Jeff swinging rope C.jpg


A pic of a 640 acre pasture that we called "The Section."

Back of Section C.jpg

The buildings on the ranch were all built in the 1920's to be a boy's camp. It operated for one year, then the depression hit and the family that built it lost it in foreclosure. They were able to buy it back around 5 years later but never re-opened it as a camp. The main lodge was the old kitchen and dining hall; we used it as a large guest house.

Back "in the day", in Texas a lot of folks did not sleep in bedrooms during the hot summer. Instead they slept on a screened in "sleeping porch" where the breeze would keep them cooler. This was how the lodge was set up, with a large screened in porch surrounding the main building on two sides. There were a dozen or so beds situated on the sleeping porch and that's where you slept when visiting the ranch.

The photo below shows my parents on the sleeping porch. My collie Sabrina had just jumped up on the bed to wake Mom up. The river was around 100' away to the right side of the photo. Many days I awoke as sun up to see herds of deer, wild turkey, etc all grazing in the pecan grove between the lodge and the river.

Mom and Dad sleeping porch C.jpg


On that same visit I brought out a rifle that my grandfather gave to my Dad in 1930 on Dad's 10th birthday. It's an old octagonal Winchester 22 WRF (early version of the .22 magnum) that Grandfather Smith had purchased used. Dad hadn't fired the gun in probably 40 years, and had a big smile on his face after shooting it off of the hood of the Jimmy.

Dad shooting.jpg


The ranch was a special place where things just seemed to slow down. My time there was at a very formulative time in my life, and I was blessed to have lived there. 

I bring all of this up because the ranch was around 30 miles as the crow flies from the Christian youth camp that was wiped out by the floods this week.

Real County is very isolated; back when I lived there the population of the entire county was only around 2,500 people. The closest town to us (Barksdale) only had 49 inhabitants, the second closest (Camp Wood) had 179. I think that there might have been 450 people in Leakey, the county seat. Kerrville was around 75 miles away as the crow flies, but took about an hour and a half to drive to due to the lack of direct roads. Uvalde was about the same, but a closer drive.

In 1987 I personally saw 20' tall flood waters coming down the canyon's on the ranch, with boulders, old driftwood and debris at the front of the flood. This was at a time where no rain fell on the ranch itself - the flood was caused by a downpour several miles upstream. The waters came up quickly - and then receded within a few hours. 

Flooding all depends upon what watershed that the rain falls in and how quickly it comes down. The soil is very rocky in that part of the Hill Country, so most rain is not going to get absorbed.

The camp that was wiped out this week was further down from the headwaters on the Guadalupe River than we were on the Nueces, so there was more watershed land feeding the river that could cause a larger flood. 

It is a fallacy to think that people could have been saved due to warnings from NOAA. Nowadays, it seems as if pubic warnings from government agencies are so prevalent that it's like the boy who called wolf - 99.999% of the time people ignore them because of the plethora of times that warnings were sent for events that did not come to pass.

My heart goes out to the family's who have endured a tragic loss. The politization - under false pretenses - of this event is heart breaking too.
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doc henderson

SC you point out well how important experiences like this in nature are to help develop our young people.  There is risk, and I believe raising up a child involves giving a little more rope as they develop and are ready for it.  You hope to gain from a series of near misses and not start out with catastrophic consequences.  A kid on a ranch is more likely to be able to shoot and ride, having been around it, and was given some free rein.  So, attending these camp help develop young folks, even city kids, to thrive in a world that is not all protected.  Those are some great photos and memories.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

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