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WARNING - ALL ILLINOIS WOODLOT OWNERS- URGENT

Started by Kirk_Allen, October 19, 2005, 09:44:04 AM

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crtreedude

Hi Kirk,

I suspect we would agree with most things. The people down here work and don't expect a hand out - Costa Rica is much different than most if not all the other Latin American countries. I know what some of the others are like.

The government in the USA is broken when less than a majority will even vote. Then of course complain about the state of things. 

Yes, I would agree that a lot of my success is due to things I learned up North. Trust me, I am not knocking it. What concerns me is the errosion of the very values and attitudes that DID shape me.  Did you know according to a poll I read that more than 50% of the people now believe you get rich by winning the lottery?

I think we don't have to think we are the best, but we should seek to be the best. When I have what I want, I tend to stop working so hard. ;-) Back before WWII, we didn't think we were the best, but we did show the world what we were made of. I sure would like to go back to walking softly but carrying a big stick. Arrogance of course is the issue.

The Costa Ricans don't want to go to the USA for a better life - they want to go there for the money. After they make a wad and save it, they move back here. This is the truth. This is probably going to be hard to take but I have been told over and over (very nicely by the way) by Ticos that they don't feel the USA is free. They felt very stifled there compared to living here. There are so many laws in the USA and they sure didn't appreciate being pulled over and treated like criminals because they were Latino. These were people who were perfectly legal in the country too.

This is not to say Costa Rica is better than the USA, it is just different. Trust me, there are things here that everyone would like to change.

By the way, when the Costa Ricans don't like something, they shutdown the government. Believe me, the government of Costa Rica knows who is in charge - it is the people. It seems to me that we forget that in the USA. If we don't like the way things are, it is our fault. The government is supposed to be "For the people and by the people" - if we let the politicians take over, we did let them.

I definitely don't have contempt for the USA and what hit me hard was being away for 15 months and coming back, it was looking without familiarity that did it.

Not trying to cause a ruckess or anything, but believe me, those who are slowly removing your rights would love for you to think everything is still okay and that things are still great in the good ole USA. Perhaps they are, but the trend doesn't look good from here. Even if the USA is one of the greatest nations in the world, I am not sure it is as great as it once was - which I think is more to the point.


So, how did I end up here anyway?

Norwiscutter

I grow skeptical of the value of voting the more I think about it.  I believe that it is a misconception to imply that a nation or entity would be any better off with a higher voter turnout.  I think that modern technology has caused a rapid acceleration in "Group Think" amoungst the masses.  I would argue that most people have a lesser comprehension of today's issues than ever before.  Most people attach themselves to a group or candidate that has an ideology that they think best reflects their own opinions and perceptions.  People do this because of convienience and lazyness. It is easier to let someone elso that they "trust" to essentially make the decision for them rather than actually spend the time to learn about an issue. Common statements I have heard such as " I am a Democrate because I support the environment" or I am a republican because I suport the war" imply to me an unwillingness or inability to rationally think a problem through and reflect on it's consequences.  Add in the instant gratification of the Internet Era and you get people that expect more and want to do less. As technology increases, the lazy will get lazier and the smart will get smarter. 
As far as education is concerned, the student's willingness and motivation to learn is the determining factor in how much a person learns.  Building new schools or hiring new teachers is simply throwing money at something without even understanding what the problem is.  I have friends that are teaching Afgan's to operate complex radio equipment and conduct combat manuvers without the aid of classrooms of the internet. Yet they figure it out right quick! Why? Lots of motivation.

In the end though, our only real hope lies in our faith.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

crtreedude

You know what was one of the biggest shocks when I moved here? Having to deal with people who wanted to learn so bad and have an opportunity that they would tell you they knew how to do something when they had no clue. They figured they would learn on the job if need be.

In more than 20 years in the computer field I was used to too many, when you asked them to do something new, saying, "When do I get sent to class for training?" as though they couldn't learn anything without a teacher. I was giving them the time to learn, but they wanted someone to spoon feed them.

One of the most enjoyable things about living here is the hunger people have for learning. For example, we have another housekeeper now - our first is studying to be a chef - and the new housekeeper was showing interesting in learning English so my wife asked her if she would like to learn from her?

The lady (who is about 40) broke down in tears for about 5 minutes and couldn't speak. Amy was very concerned that perhaps she said something wrong (we do that in Spanish at times) and kept asking what was wrong, and what did she say. Eventually the lady responded that this was a life long dream of hers - to learn English and she couldn't believe it was happening.

This is the competition that the USA is facing - people who are hungry to learn and eager for a better life. I humbly suggest the USA had better not act like it has life by the tail or it is going to be in a heap of trouble. If you didn't know it, Intel makes the Pentium IV here, and it isn't just because wages are cheaper. I just hired a junior programmer - to say I am impressed at his knowledge and skill is an understatement. I hired him about a month ago but he is finishing up his school work. He wanted to build something BEFORE he started to prove to me (he already had the job) that he was a hard worker, and didn't want me to pay him. Oh, and his starting salary is 12,000 USD a year, which includes benefits. That is about double the average wage here by the way. He went to college for 5 years for his degree - I was hiring people in the USA with one year from a technical school. Nothing wrong with that if they can do the work, it is just the requirement here is much, much higher.  His English is not very good - worse than my Spanish - but he is planing on taking more courses in English plus of course will have practice talking with us.

As far as a higher voting percentage - here it is about 70% - it isn't so much that they feel that it makes that much difference - it is just that they value the RIGHT to have a say. I think there is actually a fine associated with not voting - it is considered your civic duty. By the way, it does make a big difference here - the goverment changes it's focus pretty frequently.

If people don't vote, there is no democracy. Modern technology allows people to be educated if they chose - the problem is what we chose to educate ourselves with. I know a lot of people who know every primetime TV show, but have no idea who is their representation in government, or how they vote. I guess you focus on what you value. I am afraid for the USA, the focus has changed from building a great nation to enjoying a great nation.

My whole point is not to say that Costa Rica is better than the USA - in many, many ways, it isn't. Just to point out what the USA is facing in the future. The USA has a great lead over many countries in the world - but it won't keep it if it thinks that it has it made in the shade.

Regarding our hope is our faith - believe me, the Costa Ricans believe that too. They rely on God all the time, and aren't ashamed - and they don't have separation of church and state either. The official church is Catholic - but they don't take that too seriously. The once deported the Catholic Bishop for 10 years and didn't allow a replacement for interfering in their politics!

You see signs of this everywhere - on the back of public buses they ask for God to go with them - of course, given the roads at times and the other drivers, they are sincere. ;) The one I liked the best was one that said "Only God knows if I will pass this way again!" I thought it was pretty funny since it is a regularly scheduled run...

Kirk, I was meaning to comment on your experiences when in Latin American countries. There is something here which we call the "Pobrecito" syndrome - pobrecito means "poor little me". As soon as a person with blue eyes shows up, all the lazy people try to get money from them.  They have their share of deadbeats here too. They realize that your average Gringo has no idea on the prices for anything so they will charge twice the going rate. After about 6 months to a year you weed through them and they head to the next sucker. Thankfully we have a Costa Rican business partner. He was a poor farm worker once who only had his machete and shoes - and not much else. It is pretty hard to give him a hard luck story. He is very generous to those truly in need - after they have gone through an interrigation!

Anyway, just to emphasis, I think that the USA is still a great country, much more so than Costa Rica. But, I don't think we are doing well preparing for the future where a lot of these countries with much less cost of living are competing for our jobs. Just think, we don't need heating and cooling here - and I can build an acceptable home here for 10,000 USD.

just my dos colones - which is worth about 2/5 th of a penny if you are curious.  :D
So, how did I end up here anyway?

Ron Wenrich

When I was in college, I complained that they didn't teach us how to do anything.  We were just given the basics on how to cruise, and a lot on how the forest develops and works. 

The answer was that they taught us why, and figured we were smart enough to figure out how.  That seemed like a lame answer, and one that I didn't like that much.  I felt that the profs had let me down. 

As I started working in the field, I found that the prof was right.  They taught me why something worked, I had to figure out how to measure it and analyze the data.  I've been able to think my way through a lot of the processes before I had to do the work.  Its worked well for me.

As for elections, I hate to go to the voting booth and look at the choices.  I always ask myself if this is the best we can do.  We only have 2 choices - Republican or Democrat.  If you think the 3rd parties have any impact, you would be wrong. 

Who chose those candidates?  A bunch of guys in a backroom where they dish favors back and forth.  In most areas, one party runs the local government.  So where's the choice?
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

farmerdoug

One of the things that bother me most about voting is the straight ticket vote.  Nothing like making it easy for the voters, huh. ;)
I always vote for each individual race even though sometimes I may end up voting all of one ticket anyways.  But I rarely do that and split my ticket for the candidates I like best.  Even thought I may not be fully informed on all of them, I try to follow them.  It would be a full time job to know it all and then one would take a bride and you would be back to square one anyways. :D

Farmerdoug
Doug
Truck Farmer/Greenhouse grower
2001 LT40HDD42 Super with Command Control and AccuSet, 42 hp Kubota diesel
Fargo, MI

Buzz-sawyer

Fred
I have read most every post you have made on this forum........

And one thing stands out to me in your constant reminders that America is TOO high and mighty, and ready for a fall, and too big for her britches etc.........

When called to task , without exception you will reverse motors and say,"Trust me, I am not knocking it"
And that seems quite ambivalent.


My point being, that without exception your re -occurring theme about the surpassing greatness of Costa Rica is the CHEAP LABOR..............

and that you can hire someone to live in a primitive hut on your estate, and work for next to nothing, or hire a worker to do all your honey doos for 2 dollars an hour.

However the next sentence may say,  how terrible it is that these poor peasants have nothing....and yet are happier, better off and generally better that the seemingly greedy capitalist up in the U.S. ...........I don't understand this position.

Would you consider doing something like giving your wealth to these poor folks??

Perhaps start a commune on your farm and share that wealth??

...or pay them 10 dollars and hour to do your work around the house instead of 2???
Certainly it improve the standard of living for the locals.....
You seem quite a dichotomy of opinion in this regard......

    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

SwampDonkey

I have noticed that this thread went to the 'dog house' for awhile, then reappeared.  ;) The thread sure has become a little touchy, I'll say that. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Jeff

It never went to the "doghouse"  Tom moved it to conferencing late last night for our consideration. I moved it back this morning.  With that said, the thread will stay as long as its bounds remain within the spirit of the Forestry Forum.  Remember, this forum's boundries are not those of a country or nationality, or individual philosophies or viewpoints. I am sure I really don't need to tell the members here what those boundries are.
I can change my profile okay. No errors. If you can,t remove all the extra info in other fields and try.

Kirk_Allen

"One of the most enjoyable things about living here is the hunger people have for learning. For example, we have another housekeeper now - our first is studying to be a chef - and the new housekeeper was showing interesting in learning English so my wife asked her if she would like to learn from her?

The lady (who is about 40) broke down in tears for about 5 minutes and couldn't speak. Amy was very concerned that perhaps she said something wrong (we do that in Spanish at times) and kept asking what was wrong, and what did she say. Eventually the lady responded that this was a life long dream of hers - to learn English and she couldn't believe it was happening."


Fred, I believe that the situation you descibed can be found in ANY country and more so in large countries than thirdworld countries.  I cant tell you how many times folks had tears in there eyes becuase someone was willing to offer a hand up, not a hand out, whether it be in CR or the US.  There are plenty of folks willing to learn and progress. 

The problems and challenges each country has are not unique to that country as most every situation can be found around the world. I say that with total confidence as I have been to most countries around the world and not jsut for a gas and go.  I have spent months in many thirdworld countries. Good folks willing to do the right thing! That is what this world needs in my opinion, which may not mean squat but its still mine  ;D 

If you feel that things are so bad or degressing in the US then wouulnt it be a good thing if you helped bring correction to those things for the better?  This thread started over a tax issue on woodlot owners.  I chose to make everyone aware of the situation and am trying to do something about it. That is the American way!.  Some folks would say its an impossible battle.  Well, those are the folks I dont have much to do with as I have a Can-DO attitude and I am making change for the better, although small in comparison of the other problems we face but regardless, I am doing something.  For those that are not willing to do something for the country THEY LIVE IN, then I suggest they either not complain about that country or make sure you doing something to improve it.  Otherwise, MOVE! 

With that said, we are working towards a meeting next week, time permitting to inform our township woodlot owners of what is going on.  I am getting about a call a day on the issue and looks like we may have realy got a grassroots group upset enough that just maybe they will be heard and force some change. 

crtreedude

Actually Kirk, you have my respect because you ARE doing something. And so am I. I do hire a lot of people here, and it is better to give ten people a job at 1 dollar, than give one person 10 dollars and let the others not have work. I was very involved when I was in the USA too. I still am in areas as well.

Yes, I know the world over people are seeking for a better life. My concern, especially having just returned to the USA, is complacency that I see. I was in the business of hiring people there and here. There is a big difference.

Perhaps I point out the response here because people do respond and are not complacent. You would have people in the streets for a stunt like they are trying to pull on you guys.  I hope you do the same.

My point about the cheap labor is simple. If the USA isn't better in what they produce because of better education, etc. they sure aren't going to win on cost.  When someone can do the same job for much less - the jobs leave.  This is simple economics.

Yes, I love living in Costa Rica but I also loved being in the USA. They are very different. The USA is the most powerful nation in the world, both militarily as well as probably economically. I would like that to remain true - I especially would not like to see China catch up with us. Costa Rica is no threat - but China is.

If I get out of line Jeff - let me know. I love a free-flowing dialog and actually like when people don't agree, as long as we can stay agreeable. Free-flowing debate means we all learn something, as long as we are listening.


So, how did I end up here anyway?

SwampDonkey

Who knows Kirk, you might be the founder of a state wide, unified woodlot owners' association. It happened here over 25 years ago. To all the nay sayers, I'll just say this that it has survived alot longer than most businesses. Our local association is about to move into a new office, has an expanded wood yard, new loader and slasher on the yard. All this is to help the little guy market and better utilize the wood resource, to educate ourselves, and to take advantage of situations where going it alone wouldn't be feasible. I own as much a part of that operation as the next woodlot owner.  :)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Kirk_Allen

My point about the cheap labor is simple. If the USA isn't better in what they produce because of better education, etc. they sure aren't going to win on cost.  When someone can do the same job for much less - the jobs leave.  This is simple economics.

Fred, PLEASE tell me you dont realy believe that jobs are leaving the US because of education, or lack of in the US.  IF that is your position then you have been hoodwinked bigtime.

We have competitors in our fire business that have shipped off most everything to third wold countries.  Those folks are doing nothing but paying lower wages for the SAME product they made in the US. Less manufactureing cost means more money for the US business owner and it has NOTHING to do with the peoples education level that are making those products. 

I could ship our product manfucaturing to China and it would reduce my costs by 70%.  That would mean it would put 70% more money in MY POCKET.  BUSINESS EDUCATION says that is the smart thing to do.  I WONT DO IT.  If I did, I would have familys that would no longer have a job.  I would be taking money out of our local econemy and worst of all, I would be helping another country to establish itsefl as competition to the very country I live in. 

The difference you see in hiring people is the number of people.  You have to put things in perspective.  Your going to see more things you dont like in a country that has more people.  Its simple math.  I am confident that if you do a proper analysis based on population you will find that its very common for all countries to have a similar percentage of their population that is less than desireable. 


ronwood

Kirk,

How good is the quality of the competitors product built overseas? It seems to me that quality suffers.

Ron
Sawing part time mostly urban logs -St. Louis/Warrenton, Mo.
LT40HG25 Woodmizer Sawmill
LX885 New Holland Skidsteer

Kirk_Allen

In what I have seen the quality is much better ;)  Wouldnt want anyone to think otherwise.

beenthere

Kirk
I looked into the possibility of Illinois having a Woodland Owners Association, and apparently, as surmised, they don't.
(Even Iowa does, as well as the surrounding states).
Just in case there may be some help or ideas from the National Woodlands Owners Association, here is the URL

NWOA
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Kirk_Allen

Thanks for the link.  I will definatly look into it.  We are working on forming some kind of association and this should provide some great info.  Thanks again.


DragonsBane

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Objrct envinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

Can anyone tell me where this came from?
"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object envinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

De Opresso Liber.

Cedarman

In Indiana, we have the Indiana Forest and Woodland Owners Association.
We are only 850 members. But we helped get the right to practice forestry law passed which makes it illegal for communities to pass laws that interfer with logging and timber management.  This is in response to a county that passed an ordinance that required permits to cut any trees.
We also have the classified forest act.  If you enroll your land in the program, you have the property valued at $1.00 per acre for tax purposes. Of course you must have a management plan, but our district foresters will help you with that for free.  In return we have better timber growing, more of it, so the government makes its money back in increased jobs and more sales of wood products.

We also have a PAC committee that gives money to selected candidates.  This helps us get their ear when we need help with laws passed or squashed.  It doesn't mean they will vote our way, but it does give us access to them.  Also it helps us that they know there is a constituency out there that can help them or hurt them get elected.  We don't favor one party over another.

IFWOA was started many years ago to give landowners a voice.
I highly recommend getting one for Illinois.  You have some beautiful timber in your state.  The Garden of the Gods area is magnificent.

If the state of Illinois wishes to keep their woodland, they are doing the opposite of what is needed.  If I had a 40 acre patch of woodland that was expensive to own, I would clear it for agriculture or divide it for subdivisions.

You might contact Liz Jackson at 765 583 3501.  She is our executive director.

I wish you well in this endeavor.

Cedarman
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Goose79

This is nothing new in my area.  They have been over taxing ground in Madison County for years.  I know several people that have bottom ground that is being taxed as residential. 

Most of everyone I know in Madison County has got into the Illinois Forest Development Act Program so they could get the tax break.  The program for the most part is easy going, just do a small amount of management and you get the tax break.

The DNR is a joke right now, one forester that I know has to cover six counties, they let the techs go, and he lost his secretary this year.  He told me that his waiting list is at least a year before he can get out to meet the landowners.

I will have to tell the private foresters down here that someone has a $300 minimum, I think most of them just charge by the acre with around $125-150 minimum, don't quote me on that figure.


Goose79


Buzz-sawyer

Hey goose.

we are neighbors.......give me a shout and we could get together! 8) 8)
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

SwampDonkey

Goose that $300 isn't out of line considering all the work that has to go into it. A $150 wouldn't get me out of my chair. ;) I don't think management plans should be done free by government foresters. There should be a cost to the owner. It can be written off in taxes as a management expense anyway. Generally, if you work 10 acres of your ground following the plan the cost becomes insignificant. On the other hand if you have a woodlot owner association and everyone contributes some way to a management fund then those dollars can be used to help develop plans. Our marketing board pays a bonus per acre for following the plan, so the owner usually comes ahead. Some mills will even contribute to that fund by making an annual donation. You just have to approach them with the right angle. For example, if you set up some criteria to harvest wood in a sound way and promise to move the harvested volume to their mill you will be well received. ;) One mill here used to contribute $100,000 a year for plans and harvest bonuses following set criteria before it went bankrupt. Paying those contributions didn't cause them to go bankrupt. That mill was bought by another concern and will be resuming operations by the new year.  Now there are a few owners that use those cruises in the plan as a liquidation sale, sad but true. And I can just hear some logger convincing the owner to do just that. The ones that don't, they usually have their own equipment to work their ground. And when your walking over their ground you can tell by it's history if they care to manage timber or are looking for short term gains. I don't discriminate in any way when I do plans, but I can always tell their motives no matter what they tell me to write for their objectives. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Goose79

I am sure that it does take some work to put a plan together.  I think the state pays the landowner $7.00 an acre to have a plan written, not sure on this so don't quote me. 

It seems like most of the timber ownership around here is limited to 20-40 acres.  I am sure there are some bigger tracts, but for the most part it is just small groups.  In my area farming is more important to lanowners than timber.

Goose


SwampDonkey

Timber is part of farming here. ;) Kinda hard to grow potatoes in frozen ground, so when the spuds aren't moving to market, off to the woods we go. Historically, if you shipped potatoes, the market was pretty must slack before Christmas and sometimes into February.

With regards to your rate/acre: Another formula could be so much for the writing and so much for the acreage. For example $350 for writeup and $4/acre for wooded ground. The government pays the owner? I would think the government would pay the compiler and do a review of a percentage of the plans written. Where's the checks and balances? Sometimes the compiler can be the owner to. Our government does give $100 per property ID number, but to the woodlot association to administer the silviculture program.

I would say my average would be between 50 and 75 acres. Most large tracts I've done plans on, 200 plus acres, have been liquidated and they are looking for ways to 'fix' it as a suggestion of the logger that recently flattened it. Then after you explain to the owner that there are incentive bonuses if the plan is followed, some logger comes along and says I never got no bonuses for cutting wood. So then the owner figures he's been duked. Well....why would you be looking for a bonus for clearcutting the woods?  sheesh ::) Besides,if there is thinning to do, it's usually free and if there is tree planting the cost is usually about 20% of the total (which is subsidized by government). Yes, it's a subsidy, but the owner and the logger paid tax on that wood that amounts to alot more than the subsidy recieved to put trees back or space new ones. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Goose79

The state program here is a reimbursement program, the landowner pays the forester or who ever for writing the management plan, and the state has set dollar figures (cost-share) that they will pay to the landowner to help cover some of the cost.  It is 75% cost-share with a maximum of $7.00 an acre for a management plan.

The landowner has to apply to get this money before the plan is written, so he could wait a long time and still never get any help in the from of cost-share.  This money is suppose to come from a 4% tax on timber harvests, but as Kirk stated the state government has basically stolen this money.   

Goose

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Goose79 on November 11, 2005, 09:21:51 AM
This money is suppose to come from a 4% tax on timber harvests, but as Kirk stated the state government has basically stolen this money.   

Is the 4% above and beyond the income tax? And is the timber tax set up as a forest management fund?
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

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