He may be going to Jail!

[Kirk_Allen]

katie,
Kirk- In this training could the trainees have refused to go in since they were not qualified? Did not know if that would have cause problems or not. But I guess of they trusted him (which we now know they should not have) you would do what he told you to do.

The problem would be these guys probably had no idea of what training they were supposed to have so in their eyes, they followed the instructors, who I understand were running the burn training. 

This inciident is now on Radio Firehouse and I know will be mentioned in the next issue of Fire Enginerring. 
http://www.radiofirehouse.com/broadcast/2006/02/10/live-fire-training-getm-in-there-and-do-what

[Kirk_Allen]

This is a quote from the investigation report of a Florida Fire Fighter Death during TRAINING.   >:(

The training ground must be the safest, most controlled environment in any profession.  Trainees reported feeling threatened with termination if they failed an event, or reported injuries. Other personnel that had been previously involved in recruit training verified this.

Conditions were clearly beyond the training level of the trainees, and safety and emergency procedures obviously were not sufficient or not followed.

At the time this report was prepared, the Office of the State Attorney, 17th Judicial Circuit of Florida, had not determined if criminal charges would be filed relative to homicide or culpable negligence.

[WH_Conley]

These guys had the option not to go if it was unsafe, BUT, they were untrained and inexperienced, so the probably didn't know it was unsafe. They trusted the instructor.

In EMS, construction, logging, milling and life in general I have learned from people who came before (Instructor) and have taught the next generation. The greenhorn does not have the experience to make the decision if something is safe or not much of the time. In my opinion that is what makes the instructor liable.

If you are going to teach anyone anything you have to have their trust, to get it you have to earn it. I'm sure word probably got out about him long ago, even if it just someone that got slightly burned and told some buddies about it at the local bar. How many young FF did not go that route because of this?

[woodhick]

I have been a member of an industrial fire brigade for 15 years.  WV Fireman 1&2 certified with countless hours of training certificates from fire to hazmat to confined space and high angle rescue. I competed on a 5 man team in state competition for several years.  I said all that to say that for anyone to get hurt in any way in  training somebody messed up.  That is the whole purpoase of training is to practice for the unexpected.  This is the reason I never joined a local volunteer department.  All of the "volunteer groups around beleive that in a training fire the hotter the better.  I am not saying they don't do a good job just I don't want to be a part of it.

[Faron]

Kirk, The arrogance and foolishness of that chief is unbelievable.                                                                                                   I was one of those guys who became a volunteer fire chief at the age of 28.  My biggest fear was getting someone hurt or killed due to my ignorance.  We concentrated on going outside the department for training, and bringing back the things we learned to the members.  Although we greatly improved, and I think became a very good department, eight years later when I gave up the position we still had a lot to do.  I have to say keeping up with the standards both from a financial and a time standpoint had a lot to do with my decision to resign.  I could see the fire department needed more from me than it was getting, and my own business needed the time and effort I was putting into the department.  Luckily the guy who replaced me didn't have that problem.  He has never been outside the department for training, and is happy as long as the trucks and station are spotless.  After about four years of that, I left for good.

[BW_Williams]

Kirk, thanks for posting this, how big a dept are we talking about? (Not that it matters)  I cannot even comprend this "style" of management, wouldn't fly here!  Jail's too nice a spot for this joker with rank.  Bet he nevers gets out on the fireline where some mishap might burn him.  Stay safe Brothers.

[Kirk_Allen]

Faron, I can relate to the time and money issue. Our local department, as most, are hurting for funds and for all the wrong reasons they only have a meeting one night a month.  You cant TRAIN you people properly by meeting once a month.  AND you cant train them without proper funding to access the proper training. 

Its a vicious circle. 

BW, I am not sure how big the department is but I know they have a dive teem, water rescue and are caim to be High Angle Rescue qaulified. 

I found out they have an OFFICIAL web site for the department and an UNOFFICIAL web site.  The last sentence of their mission statemtent I found bothersome. 

We will continue to work diligently to uphold our probationary oath, sworn to serve and protect our citizens of Marion, at all cost.

I dont know about everyone else but I have never been trained with an "AT ALL COST" attitude. Maybe with the events that have happen I am reading to much into it but I belive its that "ready to die" attitude that is killing our firefighters nation wide.  Sure we need to do all we can but not at the risk of killing more people.   

[tmullen]

 At all cost...... are you kidding we can't even use the can do attitude any more.

After the South Canyon (Storm King) fire were we lost 14 of the finest firefighters in one fail swoop the investigation team said it was the can do attitude that put those folks in the spot they were.
I remember the days of that motto and I know that safty of firefighters and the public was and still remains the highest priority. At all cost does not portray that safety is the highest priority.
I can relate to declining volunteer rosters, my dept. is down to 4 of us responding to an average of 325 calls a year. I believe the answer is to get the states and federal government to give tax breaks to volunteer firefighters, maybe we could have a little more acountability for training and responses, if you don't play you don't get the breaks. The training issue is a hard one. training once a month is not adiquate, we train 3 times a month for a toatle of 12 hours and do a after action review of every call. It is dificult to comit that much time away from family but that is the job like it or not.

Frank I too knew folks on the mountain that day and I think of them often. They taught me to always question the plans and evaluate them for my self and to speak up if I do not agree.

tmullen
Train Like You Fight
Fight Like You Train