Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?

[flip]

I've got a B-20 and love it's guts but you should run at least one mill before you buy. 

The reason you should not buy any mill.......there are already too many saw dust addicts here, we don't need another :D ;)

[JimBuis]

"Inveniemus viam aut faciemus."  A quote attributed to Hannibal.  In English, We will find a way -- or we will make one!

Hannibal:  the Carthaginian general who led an elephant-riding battalion across the Alps to attack Rome in the 3rd Century B.C.



Jim

[thurlow]

I thought it was, "I came, I saw, I sawed"  ;D

[Greg Cook]

Much appreciation to all of you who took time to knock the dust off your hands and throw in your 2 cents worth.  A special thanks to Mr. Will Johnson for joining in.  I do have to agree that the literature and DVD seem to be a bit heavy on knocking "the other mill". Don't spend so much time telling me what's wrong with another brand, just tell me what's great about yours.  Also, Will, I think you do have reason to be proud or your saws...apparently others think so too!

Y'all's responses have been just what I hoped for-letting me know the real-world capabilities, pitfalls, quirks, etc.  I know most folks are proud of what they own, but want to see  some little things changed on the new models. I get the feeling that these saw companies are actually listening to you, and incorporating your ideas into their new designs. Doesn't matter if it's monorail or four-post (or swingblades, for that matter), if you like it, you'll enjoy running it and be a better sawyer.

Kenrod, fstedy, and treecyclers-good of you to respond, and I think Will oughta send y'all a few blades for being good rep's ;D

I'm still watching the "For Sale" section, as well as Sawmill Exchange and ebay.  I did have to wonder why I was seeing TK's for sale with such low hours on them (one had only 50 hours) Did they find they needed a bigger mill, or didn't like sawing, or haveing some other problems.  This was what prompted my posting on here. I'm glad I asked the right crowd.
Greg Cook

[oldsaw]

I'd like to hear from TimberKing owners (and former owners) any reasons I should NOT buy a TimberKing.  I've been looking at Woodmizers pretty hard, but thought I'd check on the TK's just to be sure of what I wanted in a mill (like dating before you marry! ) I've got the info from TK, seen the DVD, but want to hear from you guys or girls what you don't like or would change about your mills.  If you changed over, what brand did you change to and why?  Looks like a pretty decent mill, but I'd rather hear the voice of EXPERIENCE than a sales video.  Thanks for your help.

Let me give you a list of reasons...



Okay, that about does it.

One of the best out there, and some great people as well.  I've got my eye on a 1600, just too cheap and poor (and noplace to park it) to get one.  Even Bibby has to admit they're nice, and that's really saying something.

Mark

[pigman]

I did have to wonder why I was seeing TK's for sale with such low hours on them (one had only 50 hours) Did they find they needed a bigger mill, or didn't like sawing, or haveing some other problems. 
Greg Cook

I have seen several mills from different manufacturers for sale with only a few hours on them. Besides the reasons you mentioned, people get sick or even die. Sometimes we just have to have a new toy tool and after we get it we change our mind. :

Bob

[jpgreen]

There was a heck of a deal advertised out here for an WM 96 Lt40 hydraulic, edger and resaw, for around 12k but don't know if it's still available.

[footer]

Much appreciation to all of you who took time to knock the dust off your hands and throw in your 2 cents worth.  A special thanks to Mr. Will Johnson for joining in.  I do have to agree that the literature and DVD seem to be a bit heavy on knocking "the other mill". Don't spend so much time telling me what's wrong with another brand, just tell me what's great about yours.  Also, Will, I think you do have reason to be proud or your saws...apparently others think so too!
Greg Cook

I agree.
I have an LT40 manual and plan on upgrading in the future to a super or lt70. I tried to look at all the options out there and sent for the info on the TK. Just the way they go out of their way to try and say how bad the other guys product is inferrior is enough to keep me Orange.
I am also glad to here from Will, even though I am a big WM fan. It shows that this forum can be good for more than just the end user. There is obviously a large enough market out there, and competition is  good for the consumer in the form of better products, prices, and support. After all. With no competition, what would be the motivation in making a better product, and keeping the prices within reason.
Also, If you plan on doing any work for hire, get hydraulics. You won't regret it. You can make money with a manual mill if you
1: Like working your ass off.
2: Are in an area that has no competition
3: Are smart in the way you charge for your services, and deliver a quality product/service.

[jpgreen]

Since the owner of TK has posted, I would want to know if It was my company what his sales man said, earlier this year.

I was looking all mills for a new purchase.  Almost bought a swinger... what was I thinkin'?..  :D

After reviewing the TK sales package, I called and during a long conversation the sales guy tells me when the subject of Wood Mizer came up was...

A. The cantilever head design is not strong, creates makes misscuts, from wobbling, etc.

B. I would need to spend an hour each time I moved the mill to "re-adjust" the mill as moving it would cause miss alignment.  Also trying to rat on WM as being weak or problematic.

As I've stated before, he had to, or felt the need to dog Woodmizer. I'm a salesman, I know when I'm being stroked, and when I'm trying to be closed.

This topic has come up before here on the FF. I would have a sit-down with this guy if it were me, cause he's damaging TK's rep and sales if you ask me.

Sorry I don't remember his name.

[oldsaw]

WoodMizer-

High re-sale, superbly engineered and simple, reasonable parts cost, built like a tank, cuts square lumber.

The only thing I don't like about TK is the sales guys need to blow smoke.. Outright missleading statements..  :

Kind of an unfair statement in the end.  TK talks about the "potential" and their "advantage", things I expect from competitors who do things differently, WM brags about the advantages of their cantilever design.  Both are valid designs, and both work very well.  I've talked to people from both companies when I was closer to pulling the trigger (funny how life gets in the way of things) and have nothing but great things to say about both companies sales staffs with my admittedly limited contact.  Both were incredibly professional and very friendly.

All advertising must be taken with a grain of salt.  It's designed to get attention and then either entertain or entice in a direct sense.  Do you really think that buying some of these men's perfumed body washes that women will crawl all over you?  That buying a sportscar will make you sexier or beautiful women will really want you?  I hope not.  Does TK's ads state that the WM design is a steaming pile of bad engineering?  Not in my mind, it's a "this is how we do it and why" statement.  Exaggerated?  A bit, but to explain their point, not to bag on WM.  Besides, women won't want you any more with a red mill than an orange one...or an orange one than a red one.  Two of the best choices you could make.

Mark

[footer]

Just one more thing to add.
I think some of the reason for some mills coming up for sale with low hrs on them besides the ones mentioned are that
1 Some people just realize that it's not for them.
2 They find out that it's a lot more work than they thought it would be.
3 They can't find a market that is profitable.
4 They bought the mill to do some projects for their self and no longer have a need for it.
Just my 2 more cents

[tcsmpsi]

Will,

I'm not wanting to beat a dead horse, and would not make any mention if I did not sincerely believe that TK may be doing themselves an injustice by specifically targeting a well proven and unique design (obviously, being specific to WM) as being inferior.  I have gotten all the literature from TK.  So, I know what's there.

When I first came to this forum, I was looking for a good manual mill.  The 1220 was in the top of my list.  When I bespoke (being as dumb as I was to the bandmill arena) of the 'weakness' of the cantilever design, I found quickly and beyond any doubt, that was certainly not the case.  Left me pretty much with my britches down and feeling as dumb as I actually was.

Personally, I believe that TK has their own merits, and that they are strong enough to stand on their own, and certainly come from strong stock. 

Though I did not acquire either TK or WM, it certainly had nothing to do with either being in the least bit incapable or inferior.  More a matter of logistics than anything else.

Nah, color didn't even have anything to do with it.   :D

[jpgreen]

I think TK's got a good mill, bad salesman that's all.

I absolutely hate it when a sales person tries to work me over with bull..  :

Many a time (if I have time), I found the owner of the company, and explained what kind of BS is going on, and got a few fired with a good deal in my pocket to boot as a result.

Just the way I am with this.  I'm not the only one that's had this BS from TK's sales.  It's been posted before..  ;) ;D

If a guy's not smart enough to sell a peice of equipment on it's own merits, he autta move on. Of course it's an entirely other matter if the company is based on that kind of sell as policy.

[jpgreen]

I think my first experience with this was back in the 70's.

I had a friend from Kuwait, who's father is an oil Baron.  My friend was going to school at the University of San Francisco. Let me tell you they had money that we cannot comprehend.

I took him out on my boat one day, and he had to have one. We're dressed in T-shirts and jeans, and I take him to an inboard speedboat shop.  The best in town (Sacramento).

We're looking at these $20,000 Eliminators V-drives and a salesman comes up and ask's not to get in the boat. I started asking questions about the craft, and he looks at us like we're rif-raff I guess (maybe we were...  :D ), and walks off.

I grab the first employee I could find, and demanded to speak with the owner. The owner comes out, I tell him we're interested in a boat, and walks us in his office.  All the while the salesman has this goofy, befuddled look on his face.

I tell the owner what when on, and the owner whips out an order invoice. My friend takes over, and proceeds to order a custom Eliminator daycruiser race boat with every imaginable amenity.  Even had EVERY piece of hardware gold anodized. The sale came to thousands of dollars, like double the original price.

The owner, asks how he would like to pay for the boat, and needed a deposit, and my friend busts out a huge wad of cash, and asks if this will work. The salesman was sent packing.

The owner and I became close friends, and still are till this day.

Sorry for the long story, but I had fun reminiscing.. :D

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

As some of you have already noticed,   :P
I work on pianos for the "bread-and-butter" of my living.
The static torture of sitting and pounding pianos all day is
profitable, but you need a contrasting activity for the sake
of your mind and your body.

Back in my early days in the piano trade I was a salesman...
or,  at least I tried.  Of course I went to the training -
fine training designed by IBM, customized for an American piano
manufacturer that some of you would have heard of.
At that time,  two Japanese companies were beginning to
eat American companies' lunch, so to speak.  This was 1976.

To make a long story short,   as a young saleman (before I
was a technician and restorer) I was taught certain things to use
as sales points and to use to overcome objections and to beat what
the sales guys call "perceived drawbacks."  Guess what?
Much of those points were, shall we say,  anything from exaggerations
to downright stupidity.   Guess what again!  Since the sales guys teaching
the other guys to sell were not technical, nor rebuilders and restorers,
THEY PROBABLY BELIEVED IT ALL, TOO!  :-\

Ah, the life and plight of the salesman!   After I firmly convinced myself that I was
not a salesman,  I went into making an honest living. (Couldn't resist.)

:D
Phil L.

[Jeff]

After reading these posts and thinking about it I would have to say Jeff, You cant answer this question. "Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing?"  Unless I had owned one.  I certainly could make several points if the question was posed in a different form like:  "Why SHOULD I buy a TimberKing?" I could come up with lots of reasons without having ever operated one.  The thing is in my mind, If I had posed the first question, for you guys posting on here that have never owned or operated a TimberKing answering the questions, your thoughts, related to the qustion at hand would be irrelevant.  I'm not trying to lambast anyone, just sitting here trying to think logical thoughts.  If you ask me what I think of salesmen in general, you'd probably get a non-positive response from me, but again, that's certainly not the question at hand.

[jpgreen]

Oh, and then there's those pesky forum moderators... :D

As some of you have already noticed,   :P
I work on pianos for the "bread-and-butter" of my living.
The static torture of sitting and pounding pianos all day is
profitable, but you need a contrasting activity for the sake
of your mind and your body.
:D
Phil L.

Hey Phil,

I used to own a Yamaha G5 ebony, voiced and regulated. Man what a gem.  I never should have sold that one..  :

[woodbeard]

I have an old Jesse French upright that is almost, but not quite, a half step flat across the whole board. So, if yer ever in the neigborhood....
;D

[solodan]

I agree with Jeff, I could not answer the  question with out ever owning or operating one. Now in defense of the salesmen at Timber King, well I imagine that they have been trained to answer questions a certain way in regards to  their products.  The engineers at Timber King could argue all day long with the engineers at Wood Mizer. Both designs work, and that is the bottom line, but they both have advantages and disadvantages. Wood Mizer is the first brand everyone thinks about  when portable band saw is mentioned. This industry works like every other industry, where as every one is trying to gang up on the guy in the #1 position and find flaws. If you don't disprove  the guy at #1, then nobody will buy anything but brand #1. I am quite sure Wood Mizer has some flaws, but they have a great reputation and a huge loyal following. If I manufactured bandsaw mills for a living, you better believe I would find some faults with everyother mill out there. ;) I think that all of the saws out there are capable of cutting nice lumber. I have seen nice lumber as a result of the cantilever design, but I have also seen more wavy lumber come from a Wood Mizer than any other saw. ??? Is it that the design is inferior, or is it that just more lumber is produced on Wood Mizers. : It is probably the later of the two, and I would think that the  other companies are going to use  this to their advantage. ;)

[JCam]

I would have bought a TimberKing 1220 if they could have gotten it to me in a reasonable amount of time. After waiting 11 weeks I bought a used WM LT40. My experience with the 1220 was limited to two days of sawing cherry logs with a local owner who was willing to demo it for us. I was sold on it, it cut great lumber and was very easy to setup and run. The only advantage the LT40 has is the power feeds which take a lot of hand cranking out of the work. Four post or cantilever... doesn't matter as long as the engineering and build is to spec. As far as the sales force go, TimberKings salesman was great. He answered all my questions and didn't try to feed me any B.S. Called me back when he said he would and I was happy until the delivery date was stretched out. When I called to cancel the order they refunded my down payment, and apologized for the extended delivery. Now, on the other hand, Wood-Mizer has treated me kind of out of hand. I had no trouble with transfer of ownership, I did have trouble with my first order from them. I ordered a debarker and two boxes of blades, over $2K. The blades and the controls for the debarker arrived OK. The motor and mounting bracket for the debarker came in banged up. They were packed in a cardboard box basicly loose. When I called about it the salesman I talked to blew me off. Sparks, a FF member who works for WM, stepped in and got new parts to me for the ones that were banged up. Their response to my suggestion to use better packing, maybe a wood crate, in the future... they blew me off. They get very few complaints about their packaging, unless the shipping company turns the box over on it's top, imagine that! So, like people say, you pay your money and take your chances.

[LOGDOG]

Greg,

  I hope we're not getting away from the main topic too much. Jeff makes a good point in that most of us have never "owned" a TimberKing specifically. Although, many of us have owned double rail, 4 post cutting head mills. By way of similarity I'd say that enables us to shed light on the matter at hand. Some here have even owned both designs and then some. ;)

   Now as to Solodan's comment about :
"I think that all of the saws out there are capable of cutting nice lumber. I have seen nice lumber as a result of the cantilever design, but I have also seen more wavy lumber come from a Wood Mizer than any other saw.  Is it that the design is inferior, or is it that just more lumber is produced on Wood Mizers. "

   I'll say this: Wavy lumber is STRICTLY an operator issue ( a user problem if you will). It is entirely about the maintenance of the blade and machine (more often the blade than anything else) that leads to either wavy lumber or straight lumber. Blades can be configured to cut steel if they need to - and straight at that. It's a non-issue ...certainly not related to the cantilevered head design.

    And as to JCam's comments about being blown off by a WoodMizer Rep ...well it's kind of like this: I give people the benefit of the doubt that maybe they're having a bad day. First time that is. If it persists, I'll ask them if I've done something to upset them or if they're having a bad day which usually draws them out and either results in an apology from them or them telling me I've been a jerk. I've also found that when it comes to getting what you want - say what's on your mind. Ask for it, short and sweet. If you're not happy with the parts, tell them to overnight new ones and make it snappy (nicely of course) and send a prepaid shipping label for the damaged ones to be returned. I've been dealing with WoodMizer for 14 years now. I can honestly say that NEVER ONCE have they not satisfied a request that I made of them. Now that's saying something. I can also say that of the folks at Peterson. Being respectfully direct in making a request is key to getting what you want in a timely fashion.

   All of this is just details. In these cases influenced by human decision making. To narrow it down to the basics and the main issue, I still say get the two of them in a parking lot and go at it. Or go find an owner of each that's willing to take the time with you and work for a solid day with each of them. Be sure to run the mill yourself and not have them do all of the sawing. You won't benefit in the same way. Work every position on the mill. Saw, tail, turn the logs, load the logs, set the machine up, take it down, etc. At the end decide which has the working function you like best and go for it.

   As to the color issue, well ... when you're driving down the highway at 60 mph and anyone of us spots orange there's not a doubt in our mind what it is usually. For simple visibility and recognition there's no comparison. I may even paint my swinger orange. Would Peterson's flip?!?!?  :D

Best of luck Greg.

LOGDOG

[jpgreen]

I think this is an honest discusion, that has taken a curve here or there, like most forum threads do. Specially when I post..  :D

I have to agree that wavy lumber is operator error, as I was told long time ago, band mils cut wavy lumber, so I bought a chainsaw mill as my first machine.

Now, after sawing about 7,000 bf on my Woodmizer, I would agree on operator error. I had only 2 boards wave on me, and that was because I pushed an used old blade to far, and I had a problem with a Timberwolf blade.

All the rest of the lumber I sawed was done with used rusted 1.5 WM blades that came with the machine, I had set and resharpened. I'm putting up the building now, and I'm amazed at how accurate and square the lumber is.

The band blade mills are great if you learn them...  8)

[solodan]

I, agree about wavy lumber being an operator error, and I hope my statement was taken that way. Since more lumber may be produced on Woodmizers than any other machine, we see more results of operator errors from those mills. I was never implying that Woodmizer mills produced wavy lumber. However , swing mills never produce wavy lumber. ;)

[jpgreen]

Nope wasn't in reference to your post in particular Dan.  That's a common comment.

Thanksgiving at my little bro's in Reno.  He's got to play with "Steel Breeze" in Tahoe that night..  : Hope it doesn't snow, cause we'll be up your way.. 

[LOGDOG]

Right on Solodan. I just wanted to drive the point home so there wasn't any doubt in onlookers minds ...perhaps folks that are new to the forum and milling that might be reading the thread as well. You're right on the swinger comment too though. Think we can sway Greg that way? ??? ;D

LOGDOG