Quad-Lock ICFs

[tomboysawyer]

(Here's hoping I have the right forum for this thread)

A couple months ago someone was asking about experience with ICF and when I offered we were doing three structures - one being a classic timber frame and two being modern post and beams, all with ICF for the foundations, I was asked to share when I was able.

We shopped around for a long time to determine what we were going to do for forming at all. The only thing we did NOT consider was paying someone else to form and pour our foundations. I went to auctions and looked on eBay to own my own wooden forming system. The cost was prohibitive AND all those systems are proprietary. If you need to supplement what you have you'll pay a premium. Our last project we built our own forms out of plywood and 2x4's, drilled holes and used small pieces of conduit to hold ties in the forms. It generally worked pretty well for our 4 wall pours and we reused the sheets of plywood for our roof sheathing. We did have one blowout which we recovered from. Having done that we looked into purchasing hardware to make a more conventional plywood and whaler system. People sell pieces of these on eBay as well. I think we were looking at a Dayton SureLok system. I ran some cost analysis comparing that to ICFs and found that if we could consistently reuse 90% of the material in subsequent pours (ie lose only 10% of our material to use or odd cutting), the plywood/whaler forming system would be about $2000 cheaper (also considering we would reuse the plywood sheathing for the roof) than an ICF system.

There are benefits beyond the initial investment of ICFs. Now I'm finding out that my chosen system is approved for getting up to a $500 tax credit (that's credit not deduction) in the US for energy efficiency installations! ICFs create a virtually finished space (two of the three structures have basements - the barn only frost wall). There are certainly energy saving features. But the real seller at the time we made our decision is you can actually pour concrete and have the temperature go below freezing during the cure time. Of course, due to unforeseen circumstances, we are not pouring in the late fall or early spring - yet. There's also the incredible ease of installation. I formed my entire first wall all by myself while hubby was off digging or stumping or something.

We chose Quad-Lock for a couple reasons. First, we liked the simplicity of the components - not preassembled AND the panels come in simple 1' by 4' sizes. Second, a dealer was in our home state (Vermont). The walls for the house and studio will be 8" and the frost walls for the barn 6" but we could reuse excess and leftover materials between the jobs since the ties are not a permanent part of the panels and everything comes in case quantities.

Here's some photos taken for our first wall and pour. We DID NOT follow all the manufacturer's guidelines and are very happy with the results. Quad-Lock really allowed us to be experimental. Turns out our site selection for the studio was on ledge and our two 12' frost walls below the walk-out part of the basement just weren't going to go down 4' without explosives. Our frost wall is formed AROUND the ledge.



Here's my footing with the metal track nailed in to hold the bottom of the forms. The manufacturer wanted us to frame the steps in 1' increments over the ledge. I decided to mold the panels around the ledge instead.

To have a better understanding of the product, I made myself a mock-up section of panels.



While these are sold as 8" ties, that is 8" NOMINAL. The actual distance between the two panels is 7 5/8". Which is fine when you are using store bought lumber. It's not an issue for this structure because our timber frame has only two 8" posts. Our barn, on the other hand, has fourteen 6" posts on a nominal 6" wall. But we've decided that's an easy fix. I'll screw plywood to the ties on either side of where the posts will be and eliminate the foam there. That way, in the post areas, there will be an extra 2 1/4" of concrete. For the studio, the two 8" posts will sit on 9 7/8" of concrete.



The Quad-Lock system has 5 components - 1' x 4' x 2 1/4" panels (they have thicker panels AND panels for clapboard siding too), plastic ties, corner bracing, metal track, and top metal ties. Here I am putting the metal corner bracing in and inserting tabs from a cut up tie.



Installing full panels and building out from the corner was quick and easy. But then came the ledge.



Initially I started these using knives, then quickly realized my Rotozip (though smelly and making my work site look like winter) was faster and more precise. Knives are fine for straight cuts you can break over your leg. These curved cuts didn't like doing that. Getting the cuts was easy. I just built up over the odd lines and measured down from every two inch (pre-scored) mark on the panels and marked on the panel how far down it was to the ledge. Then I connected those dots and cut it with my Rotozip.



It took me an afternoon to make this wall with two 12' legs on a footing that was 4' in one direction and less than 8' in the other.



Initially I thought I'd try to frame all along those bottom pieces because there is nothing but the nubs on the top of the panels and the tabs of the form ties on top holding them together. That was going to be a lot of cutting of lumber, crawling in the dirt and a huge unknown. Having our own concrete mixer...



...we knew we could do a slow, controlled pour and opted to skip any additional bracing along those free floating bottom edges.

I made bulkheads for the ends with scrap.



Another thing I did different was my choice of protection for walls which will continue up after these pours.

Quad-Lock recommends making L-shaped things out of two 2x4s to set over the top nubs and move along the top of the wall as you pour. That, again, seemed like a lot of waste of wood and I had all those empty plastic bags from the panels. So I sliced the bags into plastic strips and tucked them under the ladder bracing.



That idea worked really well. Concrete slides off plastic very well and while I kept the supply of concrete going in the mixer, hubby ran a 3 or 4 bag load to the wall in our skid steer, and a friend helped guide it into the wall. They said the plastic was perfect.



There was some seepage and some bulging at the bottom of the walls - but no blow outs. I think if you were concerned about blowouts, possibly the best thing do do would not be framing the bottom of the wall, but screwing in pieces of plywood like the bulkheads to stiffen it up.



One last picture of the pour. All we did with this pour was fill in around all that ledge work. That process had to be slow and our team had to be ready to handle any failures. But nothing failed. This wall is now ready to get filled with the footings for the rest of the basement. Its been really wet and this ledge likes to hold water, but the water level is pretty stable and we'll put plenty of drainage around the other walls. In the background you can see some of the panels, the tie box, my waste oil container (which we used to coat the forms for the footings) and the wood block spacers I used in setting the track. The track is used again on the top of all finished walls with metal top ties(as you can see on the right-hand wall) for screeding and providing structure at the top of the wall. Quad-Lock claimed bracing is not required for walls less than 4' but we added bracing to keep the wall plumb anyway.

I have more photos for subsequent pours and I'll try to get them up some time.

[Stephen1]

Very nice write-up, and good pictures to boot.

[Thehardway]

Excellent post!  I am currently bracing up my ICF walls to get ready for a pour.  They went up quick without any problems with mostly just my own manpower.  My wife assisted me on lifting the pre-made wood window bucks into position and my Father in law assisted me on two occasions helping to level the first row of blocks and then cutting in around windows.  I have about 25hrs. total in the stacking process working a few hours after work and on weekends.  I am working with Reward Walls 6/11 iForm system.

[tomboysawyer]

Love to see your pictures and a thread on Reward Walls. It is hard - because there just are not many blogs and photos of real experiences of DIYers out there yet for these ICFs. Thought my ledge solution was worthy of sharing because I wasn't actually sure it would work - and you can't do something like that with traditional forming at all. It seems to me the difference between brands is probably minimal. Except the pre-assembled ones wouldn't work for me because I haven't built a road that will take a tractor trailer yet. How do the Reward Walls come? URL?

[Thehardway]

My project is small (25X33 footprint) so I did not need a whole ttl of ICF's.  They were delivered to the end of my driveway via a 35' 5th wheel trailer and then I delivered them up to the jobsite on a small trailer a few at a time behind my truckwith the help of my brother in-law.  The Reward ICF's come assembled (ties molded into the block) and in "buns" of 12 forms that are shrink wrapped together.  Two men can easily lift a bun.  I did similar to what you did.  I had a small blowout when I poured the footer and therefore it was not perfectly level.  It was high in one corner.  I trimmed the first row to the contour of the footer to get it level. From there on out everything went smoothly.  In my research all brands seem similar but there are differences is strength, amount of waste (some are not reversable) and ease of assembly.   I don't think there is a more superior method of constuction out there.  The exception might be in building buildings that will be continuously modified or remodeled.  I have lots of pictures but have had trouble trying to get them down to size for the website.  Yours look great.

[tomboysawyer]

Thanks for the description. I picked up all the supplies for my barn (30' x 50' print with 6' walls all the way around - 4' below grade) on my car hauler (16' x 8') with my F150. Being unassembled, the bales of panels come 10 or 12 to a bale and I can throw them around all by myself. They probably weigh about 15 to 20 lbs. I move them from where I store them to the site on the trailer for my wheeler 3 or 4 bales at a time. The ties come in boxes of 50 and those weigh 22 lbs. So moving the stuff is easy.

The structure in the picture is 16' x 20'. What you see in the picture will all be below grade. Then there will be 8' walls except this north wall, which was supposed to have 9' walkout - the same ledge that kept me from putting in a full frost wall brought our septic tank up a foot. So no we'll be going up about 3' along the north wall under where the window will be. Then the house... I forget the exact dimensions of the house and garage. Garage will have 6" frost walls, but the house has an 1100 sq. ft. footprint and there will be a poured breezeway too. Glad I'm doing the simple stuff first!!

With the difference in brands you are saying there's a difference in foam strength? Any place people can see comparisons of that?

As for resizing, I build web sites for a living and I blog. I have to make my pictures this size pixel-wise to fit my blog, but I run them through Fireworks compression to get them to the file size limits of FF. A couple extra steps, but its worth it.

[scgargoyle]

How hard is it to find a concrete pumper that knows his stuff when it comes to pouring ICF? I might consider a DIY basement, but I'm afraid of blowouts if the guy filling it has no experience. And do the manufacturers provide engineering for the product, or would I have to have engineering done?

[tomboysawyer]

Concrete pumpers come for whatever they charge. I find all contracted services are pretty much the same - if you know what you want, you insist on it, and you are willing to pay for it, you will get what you want. If you let them tell you you are wrong, you'll get a mess.

In our case, we are doing what we can to not hire a pump truck. We didn't get one for our addition. For the 8' walls there was one pour where we filled the foundation back in with dirt so the truck could drive in. The other pour we used our skid steer - had the truck fill its bucket, it lifted it to the wall, and three people pulled the concrete out of the bucket and into the wall.

We actually plan our job sites so we don't have to pay the $800 a day for the truck. For this site, the footings and this frost wall will be done with the mixer. You can find those for about $1500 used on eBay. Ours we got free with a motor that needed a rebuilt and a coil and some of the dump gears and handle. Portland cement, sand, stone, and water runs about $75 a yard with delivered mix at $100 a yard.

However, there is a convenience (and less labor) to concrete truck delivery. We'll control the pour. We will tell the driver what to do and he will listen. We believe we can get the truck driven so the chute can reach about half the forms - and then we'll work the skid steer with plywood and shovels around the rest of the forms.

Do NOT let the driver add water on site.

Yes, the ICF manufacturers provide plenty of engineering details to order the right stuff - but if you don't understand it, your might want to consult an engineer.

My hubby is an engineer, and I know how to manage contracted construction folk - so we make a good team.

[TexasTimbers]

Excellent post tomboy. I didn't read it word for word i need to get back to framing pulling an all-nighter but did someone mention you should have several 1" all threads with washers and nuts, and some 20" - 24" square plywood patches with 2 - 3 predrilled matching (for each side; just drill them in pairs) already to go for blowouts? You need an impact wrench ready go too.

Of course you are not going to have any blowouts but if you do you are already ready to deal with it immediatly.

Gonna read this ppost in detail when I get time. Will add to it whenever I get our safe room started.

Edit: Never mind I just took another quick peek you aren't booming it in with a truck.  Your mixing it yourself and doing little-by-little. Good for you.

I am gonna blast mine in all at once. A monolithic pour from the cieling all at once. But your way is just fine really with proper steel and attention to detail.

[Thehardway]

Tomboy,
What are you doing for consolidation?  Do you internally vibrate, externally vibrate, rod, tap or combination of these. Are you taking your walls all the way up in the gable? what kind of roof/insulation system are you using for the ceiling?

I will be using a pumper truck for my main pour.  My walls are 10'8".  After the main pour I will be stacking the gable ends and then pouring them as you are with a mixer on site and a bucket at a time. The pumper truck in our area is $400-500 for setup and then $3 per yard of pumped concrete.  I am looking at hiring a crew that the dealer uses on a regular basis for my first pour to gain some experience.  They will charge $1500 to brace and do the pour.   If I do the bracing it will be less. I still pay for the pump truck.

As for the strength of the forms there are different thicknesses of EPS used.  Reward uses 2.5" , Quad -Lock 2.25" (standard panel), Fold Form is 2" etc.  Different manufacturers also may use different density EPS which varies in strength.  With 2.5" of foam you can get standard 1.25" or 1.5" PVC pipe in the wall, including fittings, without having to box out.  It gives you the proper depth for electrical boxes as well when using 1/2" sheetrock.

Reward spaces their ties at 6" intervals. This adds to the strength of the panel and makes it less likely to blow-out.  It does make it a little more complex to pour/consolidate. It also means there are more anchor points for fastening pictures, cabinets, siding etc.  Many panel maufacturers use a 12" spacing.

This is my first project so I am learning as I go.

I was really surprised when I read the smoke/flame reports for EPS.  It actually has a higher flash point and generates less toxic gas when burning than Pine does.

[tomboysawyer]

Excellent post tomboy. I didn't read it word for word i need to get back to framing pulling an all-nighter but did someone mention you should have several 1" all threads with washers and nuts, and some 20" - 24" square plywood patches with 2 - 3 predrilled matching (for each side; just drill them in pairs) already to go for blowouts? You need an impact wrench ready go too.

Of course you are not going to have any blowouts but if you do you are already ready to deal with it immediatly.

Gonna read this ppost in detail when I get time. Will add to it whenever I get our safe room started.

Edit: Never mind I just took another quick peek you aren't booming it in with a truck.  Your mixing it yourself and doing little-by-little. Good for you.

I am gonna blast mine in all at once. A monolithic pour from the cieling all at once. But your way is just fine really with proper steel and attention to detail.

Hmm. Impact wrench? I have one but I don't have anything to power it on the job site. Are blowouts that hard to manage? I know when our plywood form blew out (back when we did our addition in '99), we grabbed what we could to hold it where it was, the truck dumped the rest of his load in our cobbed together mess, and hubby chucked wet concrete up to the top of the form with the shovel and I did my best at the top of the form to guide it where we wanted it.

I do plan, when we have the truck come, to have plywood patches ready with screws - kinda hoping sheet rock screws and and electric drill would work. If not, we're creative on the fly. I'll drive the dozer in there to hold the wall up if I have to. I've read and heard the warnings from other users - twice as much bracing as the manufacturer calls for. I also plan to have as many people on hand. I hope that half the people I have will be sitting on their DanG behinds the whole time. When we suffered our blow out 8 years ago there was just two of us - and we managed - but since time if of the essence, people seem to be a good solution.

I'm a cheapskate and I didn't rent the steel scaffolding support stuff. I do own regular scaffolding. So I will have scaffolding for people to stand and work on and I'll have braced everything with lots of wood framing. There's lots of dimensional lumber kicking around here. It does help I've been through other concrete pours (with different forms). So we both have experience with how they go. That's a big plus. We also both know how to manage people and we'll only have people on hand we know will listen. Too many chiefs will also ruin a pour!

Also, my engineer is saying 'no steel'. These walls aren't really holding anything back. Steel is very easy to put in, but I'm not arguing with the engineer I have to sleep with every night over that. He says no steel, we don't put in steel. There'll be steel in the floor. There are no codes where we live, so his word is final.

What are you doing for consolidation?  Do you internally vibrate, externally vibrate, rod, tap or combination of these. Are you taking your walls all the way up in the gable? what kind of roof/insulation system are you using for the ceiling?

For this pour it just got rodded with a wooden stick. The concrete here wasn't more than 18" deep anywhere. With the big wall pour we're renting a pencil vibrator.

This is a basement. Over top of this basement will be a timber frame deck and above that a crown post timber frame structure. I can't explain why I love ICFs but I'm wary of SIPs, so the roof is getting some kind of designed treatment of conventional purlins and insulation with an air gap over the collar ties of the crown post structure. Hubby has something figured out, although he's not happy with me about the cathedral part of the crown post structure. He keeps whining something about 'I designed you a very nice cape and you have to have all this timber frame stuff...'  ;D I've just seen what small woodland critters (roof rats, birds, etc) do to foam, and I can just see roof SIPs getting chewed to nothing.

Good points, too, on finish stuff. Officially all our concrete pours will be in 'unfinished' areas of the structures. Admittedly, this particular structure is a virtual utilities structure - water and power coming in and also going out to the other two structures as well as sewer out of this one. How we are going to run all that piping has been something we've been scratching our heads over some. A lot of the stuff is just headed right back out through the walls. Some needs to run inside. The shower heads right out to the septic tank (nothing in the wall just through below the footing) and the toilet will be about 3' away. The piping may show for that for decades. I can see how 'finishability' would be a key aspect of choosing an ICF company. It wasn't a key consideration for us. I want our Town to believe these areas are unfinished.  :

I hope, someday, to put a small video studio in this space and, as such, I'll put the lighting grid and power all up in my timber frame floor/ceiling. I'm doing a lot of video production in my web development company and I need a place to film stuff on a green screen where I can control the lighting and sound. From what I read, this space surrounded by concrete and foam will block out all the extraneous noises like twittering birds (which I normally love) and my barky dog. 8)

[Jim_Rogers]

I went to a Quad-lock demo which is required to purchase and install their system.
As I remember it, you pour only 2' in height at a time, when using a pumper truck. Start at one spot, pour 2' and work your way around the foundation. When you get back to the start usually you can continue and pour the next 2' (of course this all depends on the size of the total foundation).
The dealer who sells these to you, will help you with understanding how to do your first pour.
My friend who went with me to the demo, has gone to many different companies demos and likes the Quad-lok system.
They seem to be best system.
Easy to install, and modify to the needs of the foundation or site.
Jim Rogers

[tomboysawyer]

I went to a Quad-lock demo which is required to purchase and install their system.
As I remember it, you pour only 2' in height at a time, when using a pumper truck. Start at one spot, pour 2' and work your way around the foundation. When you get back to the start usually you can continue and pour the next 2' (of course this all depends on the size of the total foundation).

Right, they want you to do short lifts. When you're mixing .1 yards at a time, that's not a problem!! We're also going to manage small lifts when we get a truck by not having it pumped. The farthest our concrete will fall is 9' - a 1' gap between the top of the wall and the truck chute or the loader bucket and the bottom of the form. I think that will really help reduce issues. I have yet to see anyone do an ICF foundation without a pump truck. When I think about it, I think that those pump truck instructions are because it is faster with a paid crew - and in commercial applications, time is money. I know we have to empty the truck in an hour - but 9 yards an hour is slow. Without paying for a pumper, I won't have to be worried about how many trucks I can empty for my pumper truck fee!

Interestingly enough, my dealer did not require us to attend a demo. I've watched the video a couple dozen times and I read my manual faithfully. I wonder if demos are a state-by-state thing. My dealer has been very generous in offering any kind of technical support by phone I'd like. In Vermont there are no statewide building codes (only water waste water codes) and most towns, mine included, do not require a CO or a building inspection (if I wanted, I could set up permanent residence in a tent - and there are many straw bale homes in this state). I bet where there are building inspections companies like Quad-Lock need you to be officially trained. The only thing that got inspected was our septic system and we DID attend the training course on installing that.

[Engineer]

I used Reward on my house.  The forms were delivered in a 53' trailer attached to one of the biggest semi-tractors I'd ever seen, and he had all kinds of fun getting to my house site and maneuvering around.   The forms were very easy to install, the manufacturer's recommended bracing was about half of what should be used, but no blowouts.  I hired a pump truck from New Hampshire to come in - for $750 the whole foundation was poured in a day.  I ran the hose myself and did my best to control the pump operator (who was NOT skilled) and the mixer operators (who were sneaky and tried to water down my concrete).  I spec'd 4000 psi mix, air-entrained and water reducer to make it more flowable.  I also used a 3/8" stone "small stone" mix.  Vibration was done with a board against the form and a rubber hammer on the outside of each form. 

As for steel - there is no way that I would skip steel in an ICF wall, especially a full height basement.  My foundation has #4 bar (1/2") horizontally every course (16") and vertically every four feet.  There's triple reinforcing at door and window openings.  On my north wall, which is full-height backfill, I have #5 bars every two feet vertically and two #4's every 16" horizontally. 

I would also be very concerned about cold joints in a large pour, using a small portable mixer.  One of the major reasons for pumping is accessibility, but you can very easily pour an ICF wall with a mixer chute if you have the height.  I have seen at least one ICF wall done with a mixer.  The other reason, though, is the speed at which you can lay in 2' lifts of concrete with a pump truck or line pump.  If I had it to do all over again, I would absolutely use a pump truck.  No question.  But if you can get the mixer around the building without damaging something, and get enough height on the chute, you don't need a pump.

The other big advantage to the pump is not killing yourself.  When I poured my basement slab I skipped the pump truck, and it's no fun (and certainly nothing I'd repeat) hand-wheelbarrowing 28 cubic yards of concrete.  I got no help with that one - nobody else wanted to run the wheelbarrow.

[TexasTimbers]

I can't imagine no steel in it. Maybe if you used fiber mesh but even then i can't wrap my little tiny brain around not having steel in my concrete - engineers be danged.

I am not talking about blowouts in plywood forms I mean blowouts in the EPS. It happens. You want to be ready when tat happens because you can fix it right there in a matter of minutes and move on - not have to come back. I am speaking from experience on this one on several occasions on a humungous ICF project I cut my teeth on. I was not the contractor my buddy was the local PolySteel dealer (now retired). Reward looks good though.

[tomboysawyer]

I am not talking about blowouts in plywood forms I mean blowouts in the EPS. It happens. You want to be ready when tat happens because you can fix it right there in a matter of minutes and move on - not have to come back. I am speaking from experience on this one on several occasions on a humungous ICF project I cut my teeth on. I was not the contractor my buddy was the local PolySteel dealer (now retired). Reward looks good though.

I knew you meant blowouts in ICFs. I was just saying, I've had an experience with blowouts in plywood. I'll be ready for them with the ICFs too. You can't wait to deal with any kind of concrete blow-out.

There won't be cold joints in any critical walls. This is just the frost wall. At the top of this wall, where it joins up with the footing for everything else, there'll be steel connecting them. We'll have as much of a continuous pour as the truck deliveries allow us. One more hand mixed pour for footings and finishing the frost wall then the rest of this is a single pour. Problem is, I can't see getting a pump truck for 10 yards of concrete. No wheelbarrows! Yuck. That's what they make skid steers for!



Slower than a pump truck, faster than a wheel barrow. I don't remember the last time I moved concrete in a wheel barrow.

My last concrete work was before I had a digital camera, so the picture isn't so good.



The wall on the left (with one person lying and another sitting) is the one that blew out - fortunately to the outside of the structure. Hubby planned the pours so we could meet minimum truck deliveries. The PREVIOUS pour we had done some walls and the back half of the garage floor. The skid steer is sitting on the floor finished the week before.

This pour, you can see the plywood forms on the back walls. We had the truck parked in the foreground with its chute over the front half of the garage filling the bucket of the loader over the steel mesh and dirt. The loader turned around, lifted its bucket and three people with shovels emptied the bucket (because it has an 8' lift - but that's flat - a 10' lift and it could dump). Then it would turn around for another 1/3 of a yard until the back wall was full. THEN we had the truck fill the front half of the floor. So the skid steer is kinda stuck there until the concrete dries (now we have a back hoe that could literally lift it out of there).

I think if I couldn't get hands, I'd probably consider the pump truck. But I'll be DanGed to spend another $75 a yard for concrete for such a small pour (Yankee that I am)! That makes the concrete more expensive than bags! Even bags at the big orange box only run $160 a yard. Maybe for the house - which will be a much bigger, more complicated pour. Guess I married a Yankee too. He doesn't want to spent the $$$ on the pumper. I think we had said if we could do studio AND barn at the same time we'd consider the pumper.

As for steel, can't tell you one way or another. I just buy whatever I'm told. Our garage has T-Wall bulkheads built into it on the long side. No steel. It holds up a pretty good sized addition too.



When hubby gives me the specs to order the concrete, the yard always says "what - do you work for the State or something?" No, not me. Him.

Engineer's north wall holds up a really big hill and a road. I'd have steel in that too! I've asked about steel. Keep getting told - nope, don't need it. All our walls are short. Garage hasn't had any settling or cracking in 8 years. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff we pile above it. Built to hold pool tables and a library. I'm sure Engineer will dispute that. I'll just stay out of the way. He knows my hubby. I think it would be fun to work the steel in and buy more toys to work with.

kevjay - what's with the impact wrench? Can you use other power tools to throw in your patch?

[Engineer]

Hey, your walls, your call.   ;D  Just passing on what I know.

Funny you mention the reaction from the concrete yard.  You should have seen the look on the guy's face when I walked into the concrete batch plant and told him what I wanted.   Apparently all the local concrete guys just call up and say "I want ten yards of 'crete." and a delivery place and date.   No specs at all.    I went right into detail, gave him the full mix design, additives and everything, on my own letterhead, and told him that I was taking six random samples for test cylinders and the slump from each truck better be right on spec or they can find a new home for nine yards of wet concrete.    My basement floor slab is 32' x 58' (approx.) and there are NO cracks in it.  Hooray for water reducer, short fiber and wet curing.

[tomboysawyer]

Hey, your walls, your call.   ;D  Just passing on what I know.

Funny you mention the reaction from the concrete yard.  You should have seen the look on the guy's face when I walked into the concrete batch plant and told him what I wanted.   Apparently all the local concrete guys just call up and say "I want ten yards of 'crete." and a delivery place and date.   No specs at all.    I went right into detail, gave him the full mix design, additives and everything, on my own letterhead, and told him that I was taking six random samples for test cylinders and the slump from each truck better be right on spec or they can find a new home for nine yards of wet concrete.    My basement floor slab is 32' x 58' (approx.) and there are NO cracks in it.  Hooray for water reducer, short fiber and wet curing.

Thanks for passing on! I have great value in your opinion and you've never steered us wrong. But just like the guys who can only get so far with some wives convincing them about what kind of equipment to buy, far be it from me to question the professional knowledge of the guy I live with!  I'll be sure to bring steel up again some time when it's not threatening.

Hubby's threatened to threaten the yards with taking samples but he never follows through. We did get a bad batch for that back garage floor that did not finish well. And one driver was heading up to the top of his truck once to add water and I thought Hubby was gonna climb up there and rip the water tank right off the machine! Guess the driver wanted to finish faster. We get an hour - we'll take all of it if we need to!

Who did you get the 'crete with additives from? Big D's?

[Engineer]

Yeah.  Nobody else around within range.

[Thehardway]

Great info in this post.  I have 2- #4 bars  4" p from the bottom of my footer which is 20"w X 24" d.  The ICF walls are 6" concrete and I have 2- # 4 bars horizontal in the first course and 1-#4 horizontal every 16" on staggered center so as to create a weave with the #4 verticals which are placed every 4' OC except for where my timber bearing points are I doubled the verticals.  Over the windows (2' wide) I have 4- #4 bars.  I am placing 4- #5 bars over the door opening which is 7' wide.  I figure you can't over do the steel and it is cheap insurance.  My walls will probably withstand a terrorist attack and it only cost me about $100 more.  Good tips on the concrete spec.  Water is why my footer blew out.  Truck driver added too much and poured too fast despite my objections.

From what I have read blowouts with Reward ICF's are rare if it is put together and braced right.  I will still have threaded rod and plywood cut and ready.  They have a reccommended lift of 4'.  I braced all the walls last night.  It took about 3 hrs. to place stake and adjust 22 braces with 2 men working.  The walls needed little adjustment to reach plumb.

[TexasTimbers]

ZTomboy,

Whenever I have dealt with a blowout in the forms, PolySteel being my only experience, there is always concrete sloughed out at the hole and the forms themselve have bulged a bit. While you can get the nuts started good with a deep socket, you will have to finsih it off with a hand wrench because the all threads have to be long enough to allow for the width of the form, the bulge, the plywood, the washers . . . .
In theory you could use the impact all the way down to compress theforms even with the rest of the wall but in reality you need the allthreads longer than all the components they must penetrate "plus a little" or else you just won't get both nuts on. Remember you are working fast, with the pump truck idling and the hose hanging static and everyone watching. You want plenty of rod to be able to get all that stuff hung without having to try and have one guy, or gal push it all on, on one side and you trying to do the same on the other with "just enough to work with."
No ya don't have to have an impact but in my experience it saves a few valuable seconds.
Then again, I don't have a whole lot of experience with ICF compared to people who do it for a living. Just passing on what little I do have - it sure ain't the Gospel. YMMV.

[iffy]

We used Logix icf's for our walk-out basement. Are building a 9" swedish cope home over 9' tall walk out basement. Logix forms are 16" x 48"and the foam thickness is 2 3/4". They come preassembled, but are easy to handle. They have a web every 8".I hauled them all on a 20' bumper hitch, but I built 2 x 4 skeleton sides to keep it all in place. Hauled them about 100 miles and I wouldn't have wanted to go a mile further. Lot of wind resistance.
On the walkout side we have a 2' deep frostwall. I formed that with icf's on top of a spread footing. Had to rip the starter form to get the height right. Wanted the top of the form to be flush with the top of my footings for basement walls. Took the piece I ripped off the bottom and ripped it to 1 1/2" high and put it on top of the formed wall. This protected the top of the form so I could drive in with my skid loader and work on the floor. Also had to back a drill rig in and drill 4 geothermal heat exchange wells under the floor. When I was ready to proceed with the walls and floor, I pulled the protective cap off the frost wall forms, and the 1 1/2" of concrete sticking up kept the bottom of the wall forms in place. Placed one row of forms, glued them down with min expanding foam, screwed down a 2x4 around the outside perimeter, and poured the floor, I know, it's backwards to normal construction. The floor gave me a a good work surface and made it easy to anchor the angle braces for the wall bracing/scaffold system. I rented it from the form supplier.
I put #4 rebar in each 16" course horizontally, and I also staggered it to hold the vertical rebar. Vertical rebar was 4' centers on walkout side and 2' centers on backfilled side. Extra rebar above and beside door and window bucks. No way would I ever pour concrete without steel. Inspector wouldn't allow it anyway. We poured 164 linear feet of wall (37 yards) in about 3 hours with a pumper. Pumper was a little over $500 total. I paid the form supplier to pour the wall with his crew (another $500). Pretty cheap peace of mind, as these guys have done it enough they don't have any wasted motion. They sent a couple of guys around the inside and outside banging the wall with wood blocks while they poured 3' lifts. No problems whatsoever. The turnbuckle bracing allowed them to string line the top of the wall when they were done and it is literally staight as a string. Logix has a brickledge form also, and I used that around 3 sides to make a brick ledge 32" down from the top. They also have a "taper top" form that can be used for the top form. It allows the concrete to go out to within 3/4" of the outside in the top form.

[Tom]

Welcome to The Forestry Forum, iffy.

[Thehardway]

Welcome ditto's  to IFFY.   Let's hear some more details on your project especially the Geo-Thermal system.  What kind of geo Heat pump are you installing and will it supply all HVAC needs as well as domestic hot water?  Are you using a ducted air exchange system or radiant?  I have heard good things about Logix as well.
Nice idea on the floor pour.

[iffy]

Thanks. Glad to be here. This forum doesn't seem as vicious as some others I visit. In some of the others, you feel like you are running with a pack of wolves and they are just waiting for a sign of weakness so they can pile on.

Welcome ditto's  to IFFY.   Let's hear some more details on your project especially the Geo-Thermal system.  What kind of geo Heat pump are you installing and will it supply all HVAC needs as well as domestic hot water?  Are you using a ducted air exchange system or radiant?  I have heard good things about Logix as well.
Nice idea on the floor pour.

Details? Ok, you asked for it. The heat pump is  a Geo Comfort 4 ton unit. We are using a ducted air exchange system because in Kansas, air conditioning is just as important as heating. We put down 4 wells (couldn't use trenches because of the rock) and they are spaced about 20' apart under my basement floor. The rule of thumb our HVAC guy used was 1 well per ton. The wells vary from 190 to 170 feet deep, depending on how far they are from where they penetrate the floor in the mechanical room. The theory is that you vary the well depth to keep the total length of each loop the same. This way you don't need to have flow valves to equalize flow through the loops, as the loops are all the same length. They punched a 5" hole, inserted the pipe loop, and then filled it with a bentonite slurry.
As to whether it will serve all our needs, the literature says they are good down to about +20 outside air, and below that they will need supplemental heat. They have a built in heating coil to automatically do this, but I may unhook it, as we will have a gas fireplace in the great room. I know, it's not as real as a woodburner, but I've been heating with wood for 30 yrs and my chain saw is just as tired as I am. On rare occasions we see -20 in Kansas, but not for extended periods. I talked to several other people in the area, and they said they had never used supplemental heat. I think it has more to do with house efficiency than outside air temp.
We are on rural electric and they sell their customers an electic water heater with lifetime fiberglass tank for about half of retail, so we bought one. They also reimburse me for part of the well cost and part of the heat pump cost. Direct payments in my case will be $1200. They also give us a better electric rate. We are using the preheat loop on the heat pump to supply our water heater.
As to the floor pour, this idea came from the form supplier. It gives you a nice surface to work from, the forms make a nice perimeter form to pour to, and anchoring braces to the floor with tapcons is much more secure than stakes that wiggle loose. It was suggested that we place two courses of forms, then pour, but I chose to do just one course. The theory of two courses was it assures that the tops of the first course stay straighter during the floor pour. I chose to use zip ties to anchor the forms together and tie them down to the rebar stubs, as well as gluing them down with spots of min expanding foam and a 2 x 4 on the outside. I figured with just one course, my flat work guys could step over the form any time they needed to, and could reach over the form from the outside to do edge work. The flat work guys loved me. Maybe it was the case of beer I had in the cooler. They also liked the concrete pump I rented. I could have done this all myself with borrowed labor, but these guys have all the neat toys such as rotary power screed, power trowels, etc. It cost me wages for a crew for a half day and a case of beer.
Other things we did before the floor pour - I used form-a-drain to form the footings. It is a vinyl rectangular hollow form with slots on one side. It is meant to stay in place. The slots go away from the concrete. We put this on both the inside and outside of the footing, then connected them together with 3" pvc thru the footings in a couple of places. On the outside, we backfilled with washed rock to cover the form-a-drain, which gives us a tile field for draining ground water. When I prepped the floor pour, I roughed in the plumbing, then brought the grade up to 4" from the top of the footings. Then put in a layer of 4" washed rock. I attached a 3" pvc vent to the form-a-drain on the inside and it will eventually extend thru the roof. The rock inside is covered with 6 mil visqueen, then #4 rebar on 2' centers, then poured the floor. There is a 3" drain connected to the outside form-a-drain to get rid of ground water. This creates a passive radon venting system, as the air comes in the gravity drain and vents out thru the roof vent naturally. I put a screen over the gravity drain to keep critters out.
One other thing on the floor, I placed 4 x 8 sheets of 2" foam insulation under the floor along the walk out side of the basement and butted against the wall forms. This gives me a thermal break so the floor doesn't get cold in the winter.
We sold our house, put the money in a money market account, took out a chase credit card that pays back 3% on home improvement purchases, and are pretty much building the house on the credit card. We pay it in full each month. The downside is we moved into a 24 foot camper on site while we build. The upside of the camper deal is that two crotchety people in their 60's living in a 24 ft camper is a really good incentive to get the house dried in so we can move into the basement.
Sorry to be so windy, but you asked for details.