Cougar kills a horse in Michigan...

[Gary_C]

They would have been here had the Government not offered a bounty system to kill them just because they are thought of as "bad", where people went to the extremes of nerve gassing dens.

Nerve gassing?  How did they get any of that very deadly stuff away from tightly guarded government stockpiles. Not sure but maybe all the stockpiles may have been destroyed.

I know of a fairly large cattle producer in the NW part of Wisconsin that was, for many years, being paid from $20-30,000 per year in compensation for livestock that was killed by wolves. He finally got fed up and told the feds not to come around any more because his calves were no longer for sale to them for wolf feed. He told them he would take care of the problem another way and he did. Put loaded rifles in every vehicle and tractor on the farm and they used them frequently. Didn't eliminate the problem but he sure thinned them out.

I heard that even one of the scientists involved in the save the wolves effort said the feds waited about 10-15 years too long to remove them from that endangered species list.

[Reddog]

The western half of Ontonagon (where i reside) and Gogebic have the highest wolf populations in the state, and I don't mind them at all. People complain about them without knowing all the facts IMO.

I agree with you.
But trust me I have had many conversations with Jeff and others on this and they are of a personal mind set that they (wolves and other predators) do no good. That's fine thats their opinion and I can respect that.
But I believe they have a place in this ecosystem. Game and predator populations ebb and flow with the weather here in Michigan.
We humans do not like competition in the top predator category so they get blamed for lots of things, like a heavy winter kill deer.

And really the best predator control measures they every used was DDT. It inadvertently wiped out the aviary population and mammal predators, it was even starting to do a good job on us the top predator.
We are just starting to see the recovery from that in the last 10-15 years.

[stonebroke]

The western half of Ontonagon (where i reside) and Gogebic have the highest wolf populations in the state, and I don't mind them at all. People complain about them without knowing all the facts IMO.

I agree with you.
But trust me I have had many conversations with Jeff and others on this and they are of a personal mind set that they (wolves and other predators) do no good. That's fine thats their opinion and I can respect that.
But I believe they have a place in this ecosystem. Game and predator populations ebb and flow with the weather here in Michigan.
We humans do not like competition in the top predator category so they get blamed for lots of things, like a heavy winter kill deer.

And really the best predator control measures they every used was DDT. It inadvertently wiped out the aviary population and mammal predators, it was even starting to do a good job on us the top predator.
We are just starting to see the recovery from that in the last 10-15 years.

I don't think you would get much agreement on that from livestock farmers

Stonebroke

[chevytaHOE5674]

I'm speaking from the top of the food chain.  These predators reduce our game populations here, and I don't like it one bit. I want to be the one that reduces it.

Do you know what the number one killer of deer fawns is? I'm a hunter, farmer, and outdoorsman. We do get some calve kills by wolves, but you take care of the bad few and for the most part we are trouble free, i mean statewide in 09 there has only been 7 cattle kills. Glad the western UP doesn't have that same "wolves are bad" mentality, you guys can keep it. Not saying that I love them but I also understand that they are part of the ecosystem and haveing some background in wildlife ecology and natural resource management, I understand their importance. I guess if you don't like em you will have to suffer, because they are here to stay.

I don't think you would get much agreement on that from livestock farmers

Stonebroke

Most cattle guys this direction don't have much issue. Take care of the bad apple doing the killing and your generally set. 

[SwampDonkey]

I sure hope it ain't a long winter.  :D :D

[stonebroke]

That is probably verified kills. I think the real number is much higher. I had two on my farm in upstate ny this spring alone.

Stonebroke

[chevytaHOE5674]

O I know its verified kills. In reality that number is higher. But not that much higher, as in the UP of Michigan that aren't that many working farms, and our wolf density is only something like .05 wolves per square mile.

[Tom]

Which piece resides on your property? :D

[chevytaHOE5674]

Haha depends on the day of the week. Sometimes I see the pack (4-5 wolves) everyday for a week, then they are gone for a few weeks, making the rounds.

[stonebroke]

Well at least they solved the problem of people letting their dogs run loose.

Stonebroke

[chevytaHOE5674]

Family dogs have been running loose on the farm here for about 100+ years (that was pre/during/post wolf eradication) and never lost a single one to a wolve. Dogs much more likely to get hit by a car than attacked by a wolf. I think there was 1 reported wolf depredation of a dog this year and zero last year, verse how many get hit by cars?

Only know of one neighbors dog who was killed by a wolf. But the dog was stupid and would challenge everything. It would growl and bark at anything (ie got attacked by a porcupine and a racoon in its life), so it was only a matter of time before it challenged something larger than itself.

[ErikC]

  Wolves are a scourge in most of the west now. The Timber wolf is a different beast than what was naturally ocurring here, the grey wolf. Many game populations have suffered, and lost livestock is an issue. Two houndsman I know from Oregon and Idaho have lost whole packs of hounds to wolves attacking them at the tree, and I read about it happening pretty often.
  In the upper great lakes I am not sure what was native, timber or grey wolves.
  If they were hunted and managed, it would help immensely. I'm afraid eradication is out of the question these days, but they are out of control and need some slowing down.

[chevytaHOE5674]

The upper great lakes has Canis lupus lycaon, more commonly the gray wolf/ timber wolf.

[stonebroke]

You must have very well behaved wolves in Mich.

Stonebroke

[ErikC]

  I see I put gray and timber wolves as different, when they are in fact the same species. It is the subspecies that differ from the big northern wolves, but they are classified the same. Sorry for the mixup

[SwampDonkey]

Those articles in my post are interesting reading on the cougars up this way. There are several there. Some links in the bottom link are gone, since the site was never updated after 2001. The articles involve some investigation not a yes or no it was a cougar and we're done type deal. Although, after awhile some of the DNR staff got tired of chasing after ghostly evidence. It is listed as endangered in NB.

Kinda like listing polar bears for NB, but not really I suppose. My grandfather always had someone calling about coming to hunt polar bears. He replied one time that you can come hunt elephants if you want, doesn't mean your going to shoot one or see one. ;D

[Jeff]

Family dogs have been running loose on the farm here for about 100+ years (that was pre/during/post wolf eradication) and never lost a single one to a wolve.

You missed the point on that. If a dog runs lose and wild and does anything destructive to personal property, animal control can kill it on sight, whereas a wolf enjoys full governmental protection from all indiscretions, outside of perhaps killing a person, and that's not ever been an issue. I don't think there are any documented cases of that ever happening at least in Michigan. If a dog running wild comes on my property and starts killing deer, there are remedies. When one of the DNR's dogs come, there are none

Its not fawns. Here in cedar country where the deer yard heavily, it becomes a fish in a barrel situation.  We've seen on a crystal clear winter night, with the temps below zero, the yarded deer come out on the ice on Lou's pond and bed outside of the thermal protection of the cedars, watching tentatively towards shore. We (a person) can't even get them to do that. There is only one creature that we observe putting that sort of fear into our deer.

The DNR have released far more deer then 4.   Every time they trap one and put a collar on it or a chip in one, and then let go, they are being un-naturally released. The way I see it, the biggest drive for maintaining the wolves is the almighty dollar. Millions are spent on this. The wolves do not fill any integral puzzle piece in the biology of the eastern U.P. The only thing they do is undo the things that as land owners we do to promote the well being of personally desirable species on our property.

I don't hate wolves. I have no problem with wolves as long as they are somewhere outside of my personal domain. What I have a problem with is not being allowed to be any part of the natural selection process within my domain when it comes to wolves.

[stonebroke]

Family dogs have been running loose on the farm here for about 100+ years (that was pre/during/post wolf eradication) and never lost a single one to a wolve.

You missed the point on that. If a dog runs lose and wild and does anything destructive to personal property, animal control can kill it on sight, whereas a wolf enjoys full governmental protection from all indiscretions, outside of perhaps killing a person, and that's not ever been an issue. I don't think there are any documented cases of that ever happening at least in Michigan. If a dog running wild comes on my property and starts killing deer, there are remedies. When one of the DNR's dogs come, there are none

Its not fawns. Here in cedar country where the deer yard heavily, it becomes a fish in a barrel situation.  We've seen on a crystal clear winter night, with the temps below zero, the yarded deer come out on the ice on Lou's pond and bed outside of the thermal protection of the cedars, watching tentatively towards shore. We (a person) can't even get them to do that. There is only one creature that we observe putting that sort of fear into our deer.

The DNR have released far more deer then 4.   Every time they trap one and put a collar on it or a chip in one, and then let go, they are being un-naturally released. The way I see it, the biggest drive for maintaining the wolves is the almighty dollar. Millions are spent on this. The wolves do not fill any integral puzzle piece in the biology of the eastern U.P. The only thing they do is undo the things that as land owners we do to promote the well being of personally desirable species on our property.

I don't hate wolves. I have no problem with wolves as long as they are somewhere outside of my personal domain. What I have a problem with is not being allowed to be any part of the natural selection process within my domain when it comes to wolves.

ditto



Stonebroke

[isawlogs]

   :  helping the natural selection and not tellin' is an option , it also helps with the blood pressure .  ;)   I have good blood pressure  ;D

[Jeff]

Mortality codes in implanted chips create risks I'm not willing to take.

[Jeff]

I figure I better add a little more to my thinkings on the DNR dogs.    I don't feel that wolves are detrimental to the deer herd as a whole throughout the entire U.P.  I think where areas that have good deer populations and good conditions for high reproduction, that wolves don't make a difference.

HOWEVER there are areas like we have here, with little to no farm land, with some past tough winters with high deer mortality, that has caused us to be in a place where we can't get back over the hump to return our once very good deer populations that we enjoyed in the early 90s. I am truly in believe that the predator problem here is the remaining limiting factor. Coyotes, wolves, the now proven existence of cougars, which we already knew, and bears and bobcats to a very limited degree.

[Reddog]

and bears and bobcats to a very limited degree.

That degree may not be as limited as you think.
You also have lynx that move in and out of the area.
All three are very hard on fawns.

[Jeff]

There is only one thing that leaves only the mandibles, shards of the large bones and a pile of hair in the winter, and we are finding these spots in multitudes the last few springs. The big bones are being crunched. That aint bears.  The greatest number of kills come during yarding. I think our fawn predation is probably always high due to the type of country.

You're not going to change my mind.

[Reddog]

You're not going to change my mind.

Already knew that.
Don't worry your next problem in a few years will be the turkeys. ;)

[chevytaHOE5674]

Number one killer of fawns is the bobcat, second is the black bear iirc... Without fawns your deer heard suffers.

And the DNR and USFWS does trap and kill wolves on a limited scale every year.

As for wolves not fitting any part of the ecology. They are the top down predator that starts the trophic cascade. Its been widely studied that without the presence of wolves deer numbers are higher (obviously), which results in much diminished tree and crop production. So if your in the business of growing trees or crops deer are bad, so wolves help keep that number in check. In some forest communities certain tree species will not regenerate because of the high numbers of deer. This limits the amount of total habitat available for other species. If all you care about is the presence of the deer herd then wolves I guess are bad. If you care about the forest as an ecosystem from the trees to the wildlife then wolves help keep things in balance, IMO and the opinion of many scientists.

Its obvious that you are a deer hunter therefor you don't like wolves. I am a forester and hunter and I like the presence of wolves. Areas with a healthy wolf population, cedar and oak actually have a chance of regenerating.