Brush piles vs wood chips

[JUNEBUG 88]

As we cut the dead trees down and clean up the dead falls on property we are left with just the tiny branches. My wife & I make piles a few feet high combining several tree tops at once thus allowing animals a shelter. However, my brothers want to rent a chipper and chip all the branches they can ad just let chips fly on the forest floor, we own 120 acres of land with much of it hardwoods.  We also have 2 fireplaces in the family that can use some small kindling. IT is cost prohibitive for us to rent this machine.

A stupid neighbor also burned some of of our  property (5 acres) when he started a fire with some hot ashes he thought were cold. It just burned the dead fall leaves and no dead branches on the ground though. County Forest Fire Dept. put out the blaze. My brother believes that if branches were turned into chips instead of brush piles the forest would be better protected from a forest fire. I do not believe this is the case . Would not the chips be easier to start to burn than a stick, thus spread quicker? Besides if a fire involved the wood or trees a few brush piles would not make a bit of difference?

[thecfarm]

I do think branches,or a brush pile would burn easier than chips.Chips are in contact with the ground more  keeping them damp,harder to catch on fire.Where brush or a brush pile is up off the ground,drying out,making it easier to catch on fire.There was a fire on the lot next to mine.The only thing that kept the fire going was the slash,branches,that was cut years before.The fire got to mine lot,where no cutting had been done and the fire went out.I myself would not chip the brush,even after I saw what happened.Time and money is the factor for me.I would have to spend a chunk of change to chip the brush.Takes alot of time too.On my lot there would be no way to get a chipper to some places.Most chippers I've seen are made for the road not for the woods.Axle would get hung up.

[Phorester]

I agree with your brother that wood chips would be more difficult to burn in a forest fire for the reasons that THECFARM stated.  But I also feel that this is a small part of a bigger picture.

First, what are the chances of a forest fire in your area?  How many forest fires have been on this property in your memory, and how big did they get?  I'd venture to say there have been very few if any, and they didn't get very big.  Check with your State Forestry agency that covers this county and see how many forest fires occur in the county each year and how big they get.  I suspect it will be a low number and a small size.  The point being that the chance of a forest fire occuring again on your property is pretty low.

Brush piles are great for wildlife, and instead of chipping, I'd recommend that you continue using the limbs from your tree removals as you are doing.  But actually most people make them too small.  Wildlife use brush piles to hide from predators.  One wildlife biologist told me that his rule of thumb is that if the pile is small enough that a dog could work his way through it, it's too small.  The bigger the better.  I'd say anything smaller than 20 feet diameter and 5 feet tall is too small.

Chipping brush in a forest for fire control purposes such as your brother wants to do just isn't necessary in eastern woodlands, where the limbs and even tree trunks rot pretty quickly.  I'd say, keep building those brush piles.  ;D

[beenthere]

Junebug
Seems that either practice, piles or chips, will not last very long due to the work involved. For that acerage, piling brush or renting a chipper to chip will grow too old too fast to last very long.     So, I'd guess their are underlying management problems that either need to be solved with your brothers, or just not allowed to cause you grief. 

Try to enjoy your woods and am sure the animals will enjoy it regardless of mini brush piles or not. 

[Ron Scott]

Ditto! to what Phorester said.

It may also depend upon what your objectives are for management of the property. If it's for wildlife, then brush piles are recommended. If it's for aesthetics, then chipping may be recommended. If it's for both wildlife and aesthetics, then maybe a combination of both practices may be appropriate.

If fire prevention is a concern, piling the brush should be adequate in the general forest area unless your are in a high risk area around structures etc. Piling and burning the brush is also another option if done with a local burning permit during a safe time and safe conditions such as during the snow season.

[Piston]

Merging with similar thread: admin

I just read another thread on brush piles vs. chipping, but didn't want to 'hijack' the thread so figured I would ask a quick question here. 

As far as brush after limbing (de-limbing?) a tree, (on my own property not a customer) is it better to pile it all up in a bunch of different piles, or just leave it where it lays? 

I know the obvious like if you pile it up you don't have a mess in the woods, its safer because you won't trip on it, probably better for wildlife and all that. 
But as far as letting it rot and improve the forest floor with decomposing nutrients, is it better to just leave it where you cut? 

[Tom]

The advice I was given was to get it in contact with the ground as best as I could. Driving equipment over it breaks it down and gets it in touch with the ground.  You can't do that with it piled. 

Even the piling of the tailings here are mixed with a lot of dirt.  It helps it to rot.

[Jeff]

I just read another thread on brush piles vs. chipping, but didn't want to 'hijack' the thread so figured I would ask a quick question here. 

No such thing as hijacking a thread on the forestry forum. Your thread is so similar in question to the other so I am merging the topics in order to avoid confusion for members thinking they just read something somewhere else. 

[Gary_C]

Besides if a fire involved the wood or trees a few brush piles would not make a bit of difference?

If those brush piles are in the woods, then yes, they will make a difference. Any concentrated pile of brush is fuel to create a hotter fire that may move up into the tree tops. If the piles are in clear areas, then not so much of a hazard.

[Jeff]

Junebug's area in Michigan is not known for being a high risk area for forest fires. Being northern hardwoods, I think any work done in the name of fire suppression purposes for a potential wildfire is really a mute point.  If they are living in the piney woods, or some sort of pine plantation, that would be another story. 


Woods chips on the ground would be next to impossible to get to burn.

[thecfarm]

Piston,I cut my brush up in short pieces.When I cut softwood I cut the branches into 3-4 foot pieces so they will lay on the ground and rot.I only have a tractor so I can not drive through the brush to break it up.But in a few years I can drive over my brush and it will break into small pieces.Even what I leave for hardwood branches I cut up so that it will touch the ground.Rots pretty quick this way.I have alot of fir that will just tip over and die.The branches will keep the tree up in the air and keep it from rotting.I run the saw up and down the trunk to get the tree on to the ground.

[Ed]

I'm currently just making brush piles. Chipping would be nice, time and cost rule it out. Leaving it lay isn't an option (right now) either, I'm not going to waller through it all the time.
Current areas on the property being cut are EAB killed Ash in high concentrations. First pass through, I cut all the small stuff, only trees that can be burned with out splitting. Second pass I'll take out trees up to 14"-16" diameter. Third pass, all the larger ones and finially the pull trees are the last to go.
Cutting this way gives me more room for equipment to manuver and a better felling zone to minimize damage to the remaining (few) trees.

Ed

[Magicman]

Good or bad....right or wrong, I've noticed that the National Park Service is making piles in clearings.  I've seen this in the Smokies, Rocky Mountain NP and  Yosemite NP. 

[SwampDonkey]

My personal preference is to disperse the slash, as in let it lay where the tree was felled and limbed. Not a fan of huge brush piles. It's fine if you want porkies. They are a magnet for them. No kidding. In 10 years the brush is fertilizer in our climate. If you leave a big top from cutting softwoods it will be longer to break down, but most tops are taken down to 2.5" now. It's amazing how clean the ground is under hardwood when we go back in, in 10-12 years to space saplings. Every time we had large piles of slash around the porkies had a great time stripping out the tree tops for hardwood bark and fir limbs. I've never seen too many fox around piles, they make dens in ground pig holes around here. Otherwise piles of slash takes out acres of forest production and will grow wild raspberries as high as 8' tall and pin (fire) cherry if you burn the piles, making it just as hard to get trees started. Lots of bird habitat in adjacent stands, a thicket of saplings is alive with birds during the mating season in these parts.

[spencerhenry]

i build piles, it is free except for my labor. but i burn most of the piles to get rid of the material. here slash doesnt rot very fast. an aspen tree on the ground is still solid even 2 to 3 years later. i have built a few large slash piles for wildlife, but as of yet (several years) i have never seen any animal tracks going into the piles. i even built little dens out of logs and then piled the slash on top. i would love to chip my slash, just cant justify the cost of a chipper.

[Tom]

I'll bet that your slash piles are utilized by birds and small game, like rabbit.  I have had sparrows, wrens and other small birds examining my slab piles for bugs even while I saw.  Then come back a week later and find nests being built in them.  Snakes like them too.  ;D

[woodtroll]

Different conditions across the country. Here in the west the slash is a fuel problem. Piling it reduces the light fuel in the woods. The piles then are burned after a few years of curing. Fuel breaks may have the slash chipped, but it still can burn, it is not a light fluffy fuel like slash can be. Takes a little more to get them going. They also reduce the amount of undergrowth. These fuel breaks with chipping are not cheep. Piling (by hand) is not cheep either. We have con crews do it.  Most thinnings on private is cut and bucked up to no higher then 18".

As to wildlife using piles, we were told of a collared mama lion using a pile for a den. Plus we have found deer carcass under and next them.

[ErikC]

 I burn all my piles, and broadcast burn the area around them as well if weather allows it to be safe. Just too much fire danger from any small debris. I trim up the trees as high as I can reach also. Even in dry weather chips seem to just smolder along, not much of a problem. It is the cost that is hard to swallow. If things would rot faster and we had less fire danger I would probably view it differently.
   Sarah was just reading this thread over my shoulder and said  "What wildlife? Rats?" :D That or ground squirrels is what it would be around here. No piles for me, thanks.

[Jeff]

That's what you might get if close to an urban area. Rats. And Mice. And Skunks. Our property here in Harrison I have a brush pile that has had a skunk in it more then once.   On our property in the U.P. I create brush piles and within them I have observed Varying Hares (snowshoe rabbits), weasels, that I presume are hunting and grouse along with many little song birds that flit in and out of them.  My brush piles consist of any species that grow within the Boreal Forest type.

[Magicman]

Rats/mice occupy our brush piles and they are rattlesnake/copperhead/cottonmouth magnets.

[Jeff]

I'm glad we got weasels instead of snakes. Much cuter. :D

[beenthere]

Dat weasel guy hasn't moved much since the last time we see him.  8)

[John Mc]

Here in Vermont, our forests are made of asbestos, so fire is not much of an issue. I've seen an intentional field fire that got away from someone and made it to the woods. It just died out about a foot into the treeline. Same thing with lightning strikes. They may burn for a bit, but they don't spread.

I leave most of my slash right where the tree fell. I just drag it a ways back off any trails so it doesn't get in the way. If I have the time and energy, I'll cut it up a bit so it has more ground contact and rots faster. I do tend to make some brush piles here and there for wildlife... and they get used by a wide variety of critters (most of which I like having around).

[Ron Scott]

You have the right idea for the use of brush piles as a land management activity for wildlife habitat improvement of desired species. I also wouldn't recommend them in areas where snakes aren't desired. ;)

[SwampDonkey]

Most woodlot owners I have dealt with only look at a brush pile as a coincidence for wildlife habitat. They don't go out of their way to provide it in neat piles.   :D