Chain/File question

[JohnG28]

I was wondering if someone could point me to the right file for some new chain I purchased.  I just picked up Stihl RSC full chisel chain, 3/8", .050 ga, #3623.  Would I be able to use a regular round file, or need a triangular chisel file? Also, what size file will I want?  Ill be running it on a ms 361, 20" bar...also, any suggestions of other chain that would cut well on this saw, I really didnt care for safety chain that came with the saw.  Thanks for the help

[Rocky_J]

7/32" file for 3/8 Stihl chain. That's all I've used for 20+ years. 

Stihl likes to recommend a 13/64" file for their brand of 3/8" chain but it isn't necessary. The cutter teeth are exactly the same size as other brands of 3/8" chain and a 7/32" file works perfectly. But Stihl likes to tweak the rules just a tiny little bit so that you're more likely to buy Stihl branded accessories (most others don't stock the 13/64" files).

[JohnG28]

Thanks Rocky, Ive heard of their 13/64" and that 7/32" works, just wanted to make sure...and a round file is fine then?  Also, do the rakers get filed to .025" clearance?

[Rocky_J]

That's fine for hardwoods. I'll go a bit deeper for softwoods and my ported 372's like to take a bigger bite anyway. Actually I don't even measure them any more. After about 3-4 filings I'll take a swipe or two off the rakers depending on how it's cutting. Then I'll hit them again as needed as the chain gets filed back.

[windthrown]

RSC you can sharpen with a round or square file. If you file it round, it is a lot easier to sharpen, but you have to file more off the cutters if you dull the chisel tips, or rock the chain at all. A rocked full chisel chain is useless and takes a ton of filing to restore the edges. If you file it square, you get the tip sharp pretty fast, but filing square is a lot harder to do correctly. I would advise you file it round.

I run mostly RM (non safety semi-chisel) chain on my 361, as I cut in crud. They stay sharper a lot longer than full chisel chains, but cut slower. They are way easier to sharpen though, even if they are rocked. Full chisel chains filed round will cut about 10% faster than semi-chisel chains (which are filed round). Full chisel chains filed square will cut about 20% faster than semi-chisel chains, and 10% faster than round filed full chisel chains.

Madsens has a good essay on this:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.madsens1.com/graphics/Chain%2520%26%2520Bar/cutter%2520close5.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.madsens1.com/bnc%2520teeth%2520types.htm&usg=__3d-J9Jt1hUM-qHO1hn5cpKAV7wI=&h=502&w=678&sz=277&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=zatRZHV-CbbhBM:&tbnh=103&tbnw=139&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsquare%2Bchainsaw%2Btooth%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-us%26rlz%3D1I7GGLL_en%26um%3D1

3/8 standard Stihl chain is an odd when it comes to sharpening. Stihl recommends using a 13/64 round file for sharpening. That is an odd size file. I am old school, and was taught to file a Stihl chain with a 7/32 file for the first half of the cutter life, and flip to a 3/16 for the second half of the chain life. That is becaue the cutters are tapered along the cutter head, and they get smaller toward the back of the cutter. I have adapted that to file with 7/32 to start, then a 13/64 in the middle, and a 3/16 at the end. However, a 7/32 or 13/64 file will do the job if you want only one file size.

[JohnG28]

Thanks guys, that should get me where I needed, I appreciate it.  Ive got both 7/32" and 13/64" round files, so I should be all set there, and most of wood Ill cut will be hardwood, so I wont file the rakers too low.  Windthrown, the RM chain is .325 pitch right?  Does this help with cutting better, speed wise, as well as how much the saw is working at it? Or is it just better in crappy wood?

[Rocky_J]

the RM chain is .325 pitch right?

This is sort of incorrect. RM is the style of chain, a rounded chisel compared to the RS square chisel. Both styles of chain are available in 3/8" or .325" pitch.

[JohnG28]

Ok, got ya, thought it was only .325...thanks again guys, appreciate the quick replies. Now I gotta get out soon and try out the new chain, hoping I like this better than the RCS3 that was standard.

[windthrown]

RM is not available in .325, but there are semi-chisel cutter .325 chains out there (like RMC). Maybe you are thinking of RS which is only available in .325 I think. That is full chisel (and one reason I think that people think that .325 is so much better, they are comparing RS to other chains out there). Anyway, I *HATE* .325 chain on Stihls. I no longer have any .325 chains or bars, actually. I have run it on large and small format Stihl saws, and I just do not like that stuff. I run all 3/8 standard chains on all my saws from 026 through 066. Some loops are full chisel, some semi-chisel, some half skip, some full skip. All depends on the bar length, the wood being cut, the conditions of the wood being cut and cut in, and the saw I am using to do the cutting.  

RM (Rapid Micro, in Stihl terms) is a semi-chisel non-safety chain. It is harder to find these days. Stihl used to make and sell RM2 safety chain with the safety rakers between the cutters, but they discontinued that stuff a few years ago. They also have RMF, full skip RM, and they have RMC now (confort) that is a new type of safety chain that I have not tried. Its the shape of the cutter head; semi-chisel cutters are canted off at an angle where full chisel chains come to a point. So semi chisel more naturally follow the curve of the round file. Its the point of the full chisel that makes the difference between the chains, good and bad. They are sharper and tear through wood easier, but they also dull faster with a smaller contact point and they tend to be harder/take longer to sharpen and need to be sharpened more often. In any kind of crud, be it sand in the bark, mud splashed on the logs or base of the tree you are falling, or dirt, the semi-chisel cutter is going to pass through it better with less wear. Full chisel chains rock easy; one rock and you are in for a long time of sharpening.

For cutting in real junk, fence posts and any trees that may have nails in them, I keep my old RM2 loops around. The safety rakers keep them from getting damaged too much, and they are lousy for cutting with anyway, so I do not care if they get rocked. Same with old loops; I never throw an old loop away when they are down to the tell marks. I save them for demo work or cutting crap. If they get rocked, then they get tossed. I rocked a new Stihl RSK chain once. That thing took a long long time to file back to life and I was peeved.  I had to file off 1/4 of the cutter teeth to get that chain to cut again. 

[windthrown]

By the way, I run all Stihl and Carlton chains (and a few Windsor). I guess that Windsor is the same as Carlton now? I have run Oregon, but they tend to be too soft and they stretched on me faster. Stihl chain is pre-stretched from what I have heard. I like running Stihl chain. Hard tips, and they stay sharp. God only knows when all of this stuff will all be stamped out in China though. That bars are going that way, and Forester has gone to complete crap in chains and bars. *sigh*

[JohnG28]

The chain I just bought is razor sharp out of the box, and I can see why it would be harder to keep sharp.  I was looking through Bailey's and only saw the RMC in .325 by Oregon, but I now see that they have 3/8" RMC by WoodlandPro.  The dealer I stopped at today I dont think they had Stihl RM, but Ill have to check again, and theres several dealers in the area I can check with.  Id prefer to stick with Stihl chain for now, have heard that it holds up a little better between sharpening, but I do want to try a few out to see what works best with this saw.  As for rocking, you do mean hitting something in the wood or in the saws path with the chain, such as a rock, right?  This is actually what happened to the chain I had on the saw, piece of slate hidden in the snow tore up the cutters pretty bad

[windthrown]

Yep, that's rocking a chain. Sux... I only know of one dealer here in Oregon that sells Stihl RM chain, so you may have a hard time finding it. If you do, get a few loops made up of the stuff. And do not let them tell you that RM2 is the same stuff. WoodlandPro I think is rebranded Carlton chain? I forget, and maybe its that WP are Carlton bars. But WP is second only to Stihl from what I have heard, and way better than Oregon in semi-chisel. I have yet to run it though. Next time I am in California I may drop by Bailey's and get some loops. WP 30SC is the same as Stihl RM (semi chisel cutter type, full comp, no safety BS).

BTW: I typically run RM on my 361 with a 20 or 25 inch bar for firewood and general falling and bucking/limbing. I use that for gleaning slash piles for firewood as well. Slash piles here from clear cutting Doug fir typically have fir and hemlock tops, and trash species like madrone, maple and oak. Also in clean soft wood (Doug fir and hemlock mostly), RSF (RS full skip) kicks butt on a 361 with a 25 inch bar on it. I also like running RMF (RM full skip) on the same bar and saw dropping softer trees like firs, pines or alders in crappy conditions. If I am racing or want to show off at the GTGs, I run full comp full chisel Windsor chain on my 361 with a 25 inch bar. That is the fastest chain that I have for that setup, round filed.

[JohnG28]

Yep, WP 30sc is exactly what I was looking at, if I cant find any Stihl chain around I think Ill give that a try, plus at $15 for a 20" loop thats not bad, Stihl chain around here is $22 a loop...Ill let ya know how it works if I get ahold of some, thanks.

[JohnG28]

Windthrown, sorry, I didnt see the end of that last post before...I appreciate that additional info, as I was wondering about getting a 25" bar in the near future for bigger trees, esp when I get up north cutting around our camp...Id prefer to cut from one side of the tree when felling, and have a few big trees picked to go.  Does the regular oiler keep up ok, as long as its not getting run for long periods of time?  I have it cranked all the way up and seems fine on the 20".

[windthrown]

A 361 will run and oil a 25 inch bar no problem. I held off buying a 25 inch bar for my first 361 years ago becasue of all the short bar users back east and in Europe who howelled when I said I wanted to run a 25 inch bar on a 361. They were designed for that size bar. So I bought one and never looked back. I have Stihl and GB 25 inch solid bars, and I prefer running them for the reasons you mention. They are fine even in Oregon White Oak (fairly dense wood that grows here). Also they are easier to limb with as they are longer. They are by far my favorite bars to run on a 361. If you want to go to 28 inch with skip chain on a 361, it will drive that B&C but the stock oiler will not keep pace with a 28 inch bar. They used to sell a lot of 361s here in the PNW with 28 inch bars on them, and they often times burned those bars pretty fast. In that case you need to upgrade the oiler parts to the 460R model PN: 1128 640 3250 oil pump assembly or for a lot cheaper, keep the 361 oil pump and just replace the piston and control bolt with the 460R parts. The Stihl 460-R part numbers for these are PN: 1128 647 0602 oil pump piston and PN: 1128 647 4803 oil pump control bolt. The 460 and 361 have fully interchangable oil pumps and parts. 

Note also that some people seem to have lower output oil pumps on their stock 361s for some reason. Maybe they leave them in the E position, or they expect them to gush like a Kuwaiti oil field. For them the 460-R oil pump upgrade works as well too. The standard 460 oil pump is only a tad bigger than the one on the stock 361. You need the 460-R model oil pump parts that I listed above for the high output oiler, and you need both parts to work. I would also recommend the 460-R upgrade if you are cutting only hardwood; in Australia Stihl puts HO oil pumps in their pro saws for that reason. Really hard eucs and other wood down there require more oil on the bars. If they gush too much, you can always turn them down.

[HolmenTree]

I got about 12 dozen Oregon 5 mm round files in my shop. Oregon USA put these out about 25 years ago. A local dealer had a yard sale last summer and was selling off cases of old inventory files for $2 doz, so I had a hay day.
The 5mm is the size between 13/64 and 3/16". So if your a fussy hand filer like me, all corners are covered. :D
If you want a really nice cutting 3/8 full chisel chain try Oregons 76 LG . Or Stihls 33 TS [Topic Super] chain. These are both .050. Oregon did make a 77LG .058 and I believe Stihl made a 36 TS .063.
These chains were dropped from their lineups years ago but if you look hard, old stock can still be found. Bigger then a .325 but smaller then the standard 3/8. These chains were incredibly smooth and fast cutting.
A old trick in the timbersport racing scene we did was to put a full size Oregon 72LP or 72AL cutter on the lightweight 76 LG chassis. Even Stihl's factory got involved in this chain mod in 1989. I field tested a bunch of loops of 33 TS chain with 33 RS cutters. They cut real fast and none of them broke. But thats as far as the test went, they were never marketed.
Willard.

[JohnG28]

Thanks for the info on the oil pump, I think for now Ill be fine with the stock setup, and a 25" wouldnt get used a whole lot.  I havent seen any problems with the 20" keeping up so far, and thats my primary user. I have read about the swap before, and should it come up later Ill definatly swap to better pump. I will be putting it through its paces more as the weather gets better and time permits, and theres a lot of hardwoods to cut, see how it holds up then.  And thanks for the info on those chains, Ill keep an eye out for anything I might come across. I didnt see them in the catalog but maybe can find something floating around online.  Appreciate it guys.

[JohnG28]

Stopped back at the shop today, they didnt have any RM chain, but Im not sure they make it anymore, not shown in Stihls catalog...but they did have the RMC, the "comfort" version, so I picked up a loop of that, will try it soon, thanks for the help again.