I just bought a whack of logs

[gator gar]

I scaled these logs on a Doyle log rule and bought them by the board foot. It came out to about .27 a bft. When I got home, I figured I would have been better off using the log weight calculator and bought them by the ton. What is the best way to buy logs??? Can you help a brother out?? Maybe i just answered my own question, which is using the log weight calculator.

[boman1]

We are paying 52 per ton for 11" topped hardwood . Selling price for most 8 - 10' lumber is .300 to .450 per thousand in this area.

[Bro. Noble]

Bowman,  What is SYP selling for there?

[gator gar]

We are paying 52 per ton for 11"topped hardwood . Selling price for most 8 - 10' lumber is .300 to .450 per thousand in this area.

Well, I deffinately need to sell some, cause i went in thinking I was buying 300 bft and wound up buying 1170 bft and I need to recover my money, or my wife is gonna have a fit.  It ain't alot, but it's enough to have her in a tizzy. I went in buying at 40 a ton, which is .32 a bft, but he cut me a deal and gave it to me at what I had in my wallet, which was 324.00.

[gator gar]

Okay, I feel better now. Boman1 said he would buy my lumber.  I just got off the phone with him. I figured he would, just wanted to make sure. Now I need to get to cutting it.

[boman1]

Pine is .250 - .300  Seem to be going up......SLOWLY!

[ladylake]

Straighten me out, there doesn't seem to be much difference per bf between buying and selling. I know we all like sawing but don't want to do it for free.   Steve

[paul case]

my own experience, if the logs are good, straight,and clean i can make 1/3 more bd.ft than the doyle scale.

i wouldnt want to bank on it but it helps. i bought a truckload from a neighbor logger friday before leaving for a vacation. i pay $.25 bd ft for oak. the pallet sock  i cut pays the least of what i cut at $.36. so if a log scales 100 , itcosts $25 and sawn it produces 135 bd.ftand thats worth$48.60 at the worst. if it makes a tieit pays more. if someone orders something i charge $.60 bd.ft. the same log  could be worth as much as $81. i can cut 2 to 4 of these an hour on my manual mill.

yep i buy by the board foot using the doyle scale. i dont have a big truck scale. what if you were buying by the ton and 2 logs on a load were bad or had nails sticking out of them? how do you kick them out? the bottom line for me is i do my own scaling.
be careful what you buy and make a good product.   pc

[Magicman]

When logs start approaching 30" you won't overcut that 1/3.  It's going to be about even.  16" and smaller, you can really get some overcut using Doyle.

[Larry]

What MM said. 

Keep records of how much you yeild on Doyle by length and diameter.  It will put money in your pocket.  When I was sawing walnut, I found I could make money sawing a 13" veneer log instead of selling it.

[WDH]

If you do not have the means to weigh logs, then it is difficult to buy by the ton.  In the South, hardwood is purchased by the ton at sawmills with scales or by the board foot using the Doyle Scale.  Here, the most commonly used  conversion from weight to BF is 8 tons/MBF Doyle.  So, if you paid $50/ton for logs, that would be $400/MBF Doyle.  However, this conversion is not based on any real cut lumber data, it is just convention that has been in place.

I, too, have found that I cut about 130 BF for every 100 feet of Doyle scale, but it has been as high as 150 and as low as 125 based on log size.  Small logs yield lots of overrun because Doyle does not allow for side boards from slabbing and squaring the log.  Doyle basically draws a square on the small end of the log and figures the BF.  On really big logs, the sideboards are not as much a percentage of the BF as on smaller logs, thus the bias of overrun on small logs and less on large logs.

[gator gar]

Instead of using the Doyle log rule, I say use the log weight calculator in the tool box and you will really come out ahead. I've got a log out there that is 20 inches on the small end and it says it weighs a little over 1000 pounds. Thats a 20 dollar log at 40 a ton.  If you cut just one tie out of that log, you have your money back. The rest is pure profit. Scaling on a Doyle log rule has that log at 304bft and at .27 a bft, it comes out to 82.00.  That is a big difference in the purchasing price. Convincing the logger to use the log weight calculator, will be the challenge.

[WDH]

If you scaled 304 BF doyle, and using the conversion of 8tons/MBF Doyle, then the price for the log using conventional methodology in these parts is $38.  Still higher than your $20.

[gator gar]

Instead of using the Doyle log rule, I say use the log weight calculator in the tool box and you will really come out ahead. I've got a log out there that is 20 inches on the small end and it says it weighs a little over 1000 pounds. Thats a 20 dollar log at 40 a ton.  If you cut just one tie out of that log, you have your money back. The rest is pure profit. Scaling on a Doyle log rule has that log at 304bft and at .27 a bft, it comes out to 82.00.  That is a big difference in the purchasing price. Convincing the logger to use the log weight calculator, will be the challenge.

Guys.....I had my figures all messed up. 20 inches on the small end on a 9 foot log is 144 board feet on the Doyle log rule. That is 38.88 for that log. I just cut some cants, some 4/4 and some 6/4 and cut 226bft out of that log, if my figures are right. It had very little taper to it.

[Jeff]

Convincing the logger to use the log weight calculator, will be the challenge.

If I was the logger, it would be impossible. If I was the seller, It would be impossible.  The Forestry Forum weight calcs are a useful tool for rough estimations. It you use them for buying and selling, you may either be giving or getting a raw deal.

Disclaimer from the Log and Lumber weight Calc:

     This calculator is useful in providing approximate weights for species, but the user should be careful in how the product is used. Wood varies considerably in weight per constant volume (density) on a regional level and at the local level. That is, the weight of a piece of wood from one area or tree will differ from the same species in the another area. The growth rate is the most significant factor in determining density, with slower growing trees having a higher density (therefore greater weight), than faster growing trees. This is due to the late wood cells (the dark ring seen when a tree is cut) having thicker walls and being closer together than the early wood (lighter wood between the rings).

     Where the board is cut from the tree is another factor, the heartwood portion of the tree (the center portion, often characterized by a change in colour) is composed of dead cells and will be lighter than the sap wood, where the cells are still living. Wood that is cut from the portion of the stem that still has live branches on it will be lighter due to hormones produced by the foliage.

     In different areas, genetics will play a factor in wood density, along with the growing site (moisture and nutrient characteristics of the soil). Where the tree grows on the hillside, eg south facing versus north facing slope, high elevation versus low elevation, areas of heavy snowpack versus light snowpack, constant winds versus sheltered locations all have an influence on the density of wood.

[Kansas]

I am looking at these posts and the spread between prices for logs and prices lumber is sold. It seems like at the very best, that would only work for very large mills. Most of us on here (with the exception of Ron and maybe a few others) don't have that luxury. The type of bandmills most of us use simply cannot work on those kinds of margins and pay the upkeep, depreciation, blades and the person running it. I figure if you can't put 30 cents between what you pay on the doyle scale, and what you are selling it for, you are losing money. At 30, its iffy. And if you are cutting specialty products, you need far better spreads than that.  I hate to say it, but I have a feeling this forum is littered with the ghosts of those who tried for less, and failed. Or simply gave up because they were tired of working for nothing. It just doesn't make sense not to make money on the lumber you cut, unless its strictly for your own enjoyment or use. You can always find someone that is willing to buy cheap lumber. I get regular phone calls from brokers. At times, we have cut some for them, just to keep everyone busy. But thats not a good long term solution.

[gator gar]

This is the first time that i have ever bought any logs to cut and sell. I've got a good man out there helping me today and we are working on it slowly but surely, in this heat. Those big logs are tough. We have some good size logs coming up that should run through pretty quick. As far as the spread goes, I have no idea. But i will post as soon as I get paid for what I have and what I paid my help, to give you an idea.

[Ron Wenrich]

If you're going to be selling into the commercial markets, its best to be set up like the commercial mills, or you won't compete.  I can cut the International scale on most logs, and sometimes even best that.  That's taking into consideration the heavier kerf.  

In all mills, there is a bell shaped curve where your profit diminishes over size.  If you saw logs that are too small, you lose money.  If you saw logs that are too big, you lose money.  There is an optimum size, and it varies by species, grade and mill setup.  

You would be able to make more money due to the overrun in the smaller logs.  The big log will kill you if you're not set up to handle them, since there is very little overrun.  Both of them have higher costs for production.    

[red oaks lumber]

im with kansas, you need atleast .30.

[paul case]

the first lumber i ever had sawed, was cut by jr goodnight just 2 miles down the road. he charged me $.10 bd/ft to saw my logs.$.25 for the lumber from his logs. he was running a big blade with detriot diesel power. i dont know how he made any money. he passed away about 2 years before i started sawing. i started at $.30 for custom and $.60 for lumber from my logs. its slow but when i am sawing i am making a little cash. it generally figures out to be that on the pallet stock i can cut as much as i want and it pays $.25 to cut and $.25 for the log.
i do however work alone or with my son so there is no hired hand expense per say. if i saw 2 of those logs per hour thats $46 . minus 1/2 a blade= $12 and $2 for fuel. i made $32 per hour. i realize that dont take into account normal wear and tare and breakdowns, but i have sawn a lot of hours with none of that so it usually isnt too big an expense.
i know what you guys are saying about not making much but in my experience i can see how old jr could cut for $.10 bd.ft but i wont be cutting for that. most of my logs are between 50 and 150 bd.ft on the doyle scale and thats what i usually buy.

[gator gar]

We are down to 1 log and some edging to do. The rain is headed our way quick.

[Magicman]

i realize that dont take into account normal wear and tare and breakdowns, but i have sawn a lot of hours with none of that so it usually isnt too big an expense. 

Normal wear and tear for me is not much.  Oil/filter changes are my biggest expenses.  I doubt if my breakdown expenses have averaged over $200 per year.  Some years, it has been zero.

[Kansas]

You know I would be really curious about this. Maybe someone from Woodmizer or another company can answer this. Or someone who keeps really good records. (And here I go hijacking a thread again.) What is the cost per thousand hours of use for upkeep excluding blades? I assume after the first few thousand hours, it goes up. Be interesting to see what the curve is.

[Magicman]

I could certainly pull all of my invoices since I've been sawing, but the above guestimate is probably accurate.  There is really not much to wear out.

[customsawyer]

I am in the middle and upper end on this. With the one mill it sits in the same place all the time and I have all the extra equipment to help make good production so I can saw cheaper there than I can just custom sawing with the other mill here at the house or at the customers place.
One of the things that took me a while to learn was that when you factor in all of the extra cost like ins., truck, edger, and what ever you move the logs with you have to make enough to cover all of these things or you are backing up. On the other side of that coin is that you can price yourself out of a job. Remember pigs get fatter and hogs get knocked in the head.