Standing mill wood...

[mrcaptainbob]

The neighbor who's building his sawmill stopped by this eve with a question....how about cutting a standing tree similar to girdling it, but maybe deeper than just the bark. Say about two inches. Leave it stand for a year. It's off the ground, dries out from the sides with probably less cracking. When it's time, cut it down and run it through the saw mill. Good idea? Bad idea? Any  opinions?

[tyb525]

It's is best to cut a log as green as possible. Older logs can be harder to saw, plus they will never dry in the middle, and there will still be cracks. I don't think there is much to gain.

[Jeff]

Bad Idea.  Ty is right on the money.

[tyb525]

I've heard many people (mostly old-timers) mention "seasoning" logs a year or two before cutting them when I am talking with them about sawing, and then I have to tell them the bad news. I wonder where this idea came from that is so wide spread?

[Chris Burchfield]

There may be motive in the madness for some applications.  I've not been around any of the operations but I've read where log home builders will dry their logs before milling for up to a couple of years.

[bandmiller2]

To each his own.Soft woods are best cut freash,hardwoods I prefer to let them sit off the ground up to a year harder to cut yes but a better more stable product.Was common practice up here in the northeast to save really fine oak logs in the mill pond sometimes for many years.Of course I'am old and mayby not believable.Frank C.

[tyb525]

Bandmiller I believe you I just wanna know why they did that

[Jeff]

Now how in tarnation is a log to season while in a pond? I have to think the only reason you would save logs for many years in a pond was to keep them from drying until you found a use or a market, certainly not to season them.

I don't believe for a second that drying hardwood logs before sawing reduces stress in the lumber, in fact after years and years of sawing it, I know that's not so.  I've sawn everything from trees that were standing only minutes before they were on the mill on a portable mill, to logs that had been stored in a barn for a dozen years "Curing" by an old farmer that believed such fallacy.  That log was the worst log I ever sawed. I'm talking hundreds of logs a day over 25 years, so I got to see a long term sampling of results. Lumber from older dried logs is no better then that from green, and probably worse because of the difficulty increased in sawing a quality product.


Log home logs is a different animal.

[bandmiller2]

Oak logs are put in water to hold them in good condition,in Maine I've seen piles of logs kept wet with sprinklers,I would guess to keep insects out of them.I don't like milling hard dry oak but logs stored for several months off the ground don't move around as much when you mill them.As with everthing in this trade outhers mileage may vary.I have tried girdling oak with leaves,in theory it will reduce the moisture but I've found it not worth the effort.Not trying to dissagree with you Jeff just my experiance.Frank C.

[Jeff]

 Its a theory based on your past experience yes. I understand. My experience is far different and all we ever sawed at the mill was hardwoods. I suggest the logs you dried were not going to move around green either then. Red Oak is inherently stable to begin with compared to a lot of other species.  The question that this brings to bare, how do you know they did not move around as much? You can't unless you sawed them green, reassembled them, and then sawed them again.

I love a debate.

[Ron Wenrich]

Am I the only guy that's sawed standing dead wood?  Well, it wasn't standing when I sawed it.  But, I've gone through gobs of wood that has been dead, some for years.  Red oak, white oak, ash, hickory and tulip poplar.  A lot of this has had the bark fall off.

The sapwood is the first to go.  It either turns to punk or it gets brittle and is discolored.  The remaining wood, if the bugs don't get to it, is dry and dusty.  Sometimes you'll find pockets of dote.  But, the color doesn't seem to be as good as the fresh logs.

In theory, curing the log would mean that you could use the lumber right away.  The only problem is that you're also curing the sawdust, and it takes a whole lot longer to cure a log than it does to cure boards. 

A board that comes from a log with twist, will yield twisted lumber.  It might not be evident right away, but as the moisture content changes, so will the board.  Stability is the reason they take big boards and rip into smaller strips, then glue them back together.  Do away with twisted logs, and you get straight lumber.

Ponds were used to keep logs fresh.  The water blocked the drying process, kept the bugs off and kept out the blue stain.  Sprinklers are used to keep logs fresh, but mainly to keep out the bugs.  I've seen them mainly on ash logs to keep out powder post beetle. 

[terrifictimbersllc]

Here's the opposite of drying out.  These logs floated up onto the beach from Long Island Sound.  Owner went over with his backhoe, brought them home and called me.  Sawed out some pretty decent boards had some unusual green and blue streaks in them. We thought they were maple.  Terrificwoman said they looked shriveled. 

[Jeff]

I've sawn more then a little standing dead wood. We were a ground zero area in this part of Michigan for Gypsy moths.

[Magicman]

Probably 75%+ of the logs that I saw are beetle killed SYP.  I find that they are much more stable than fresh cut.  Maybe the rosin has set or something?  The lumber from beetle killed SYP is much lighter and will dry quicker than fresh.

I just finished a job with over 100 SYP beetle killed logs.  Of that, I encountered only one "suck butt" cant that had to be flipped.  In March, I sawed a SYP job with all fresh cut trees.  I flipped several cants every day.

Looking at the OP,  I would never girdle a tree to speed up anything.  I would saw it green first.

[paul case]

saw it green gets my vote.
of the dead stuff i have sawn some is no good at all and all of it looses some wood. like everybody else says the sapwood is the first to go. take the sapwood off a 20'' post oak and you get almost as much slabs as good wood. drying a log by leaving it standing dead is no way to go. if you are concerned about some boards not drying well consider this the waste of the sapwood rotting off the log and having to be discarded is far more than a few boards that may twist or cup.  they probably will still be those few twists and cups even after the loss.pc

[Ernie]

These logs floated up onto the beach from Long Island Sound. 

How did you get the sand out?  ??? Any driftwood I have milled sure dulled my carbide teeth real quick. :(

[Jeff]

mrcaptainbob  odds on, is referring to hardwoods considering what part of Michigan he is from.

[terrifictimbersllc]

These logs floated up onto the beach from Long Island Sound. 

How did you get the sand out?  ??? Any driftwood I have milled sure dulled my carbide teeth real quick. :(

I don't remember any issue.  I think he powerwashed them.  There were only a few and 7-8' I think.  It's possible the blade was dulled faster but nothing I remember.

[bandmiller2]

Jeff,glad you consider it a debate and not a mutany.Of course its hard for me to prove,I'am not talking about letting the log dry out that takes forever and makes them difficult  to mill.My first circular mill had limited clamping ability,would take a slab cut flip it down and a 2" bow ,mostly white some red oak.Tried letting the logs sit  3 or4 months and had few problems.Probibly wouldn't have had trouble with hydraulic dogs.Frank C.

[tyb525]

My biggest sawing job was all walnut that had been dead standing for many years. >1000 bf. The sapwood might as well been sponge. The heart wood was very tough to saw. My cuts were wavy much more than normal, and I had to slow feed way down for knots. Not to mention that unless I really poured the water on, the sawdust refused to stay on the ground, or even land there. Whenever there was the slightest breeze, it sent the dust flying, usually into my eyes (even with safety glasses on). I never have that problem with green logs.

I think the reason for log ponds, sprinklers, etc., is to keep the logs fresh and bugs off until they get the chance to mill them. I don't think they do it for any other reason.

[mrcaptainbob]

Good info and great dialogue. Sure appreciate the high plane you people are on. No snarky, no petty, just great discussion. Thanks.

[bandmiller2]

Ty,get yourself a pair of goggles,the clear plastic ones for those dusty logs.If you have power at the mill site a big fan can help.Walnut sawdust can be toxic to some folks and even plants.My old buddy Spike grew up in Maine, in his youth worked in a mill,the sawyer showed him a huge white oak log in the bottom of the mill pond said his granddad put it there 100 yrs. ago,said he was saving it for a special job.Frank C.

[ladylake]

 I sawed some of those nice old white oak, red oak and elm logs the other morning. On quite a few the boards came off like banannas, white oak was worst then red oak. The elm came off straight, I think it was dry all the way through.  Steve

[barbender]

I am sawing some red oak that was dead standing for around 5 years, all the sapwood is punk and some of the heartwood too. On top of that, it is still WET. I'd much rather have some green logs right of the stump.

[Magicman]

all the sapwood is punk ...... heartwood.....is still WET  

As tyb said at the beginning.  You can rot it but you can't dry it standing.   ;)