Bundled Firewood Business

[SwampDonkey]

It's all pine, but that's the common firewood in these parts anyway, and burns with a nice cheery fire, even if it doesn't last as long as a denser hardwood. That fast cheerful fire is what the bundled firewood buyers are looking for.

Ian

I know I'm getting away for the spirit of the thread here but....

The snap, crackle and pop ejecting embers on the floor is one of the reasons softwood isn't used when you have hardwood on hand. I know of more than one house that burned down because of embers that popped out of the fire onto a unprotected floor when left unattended and possibly asleep in bed. And yes, the sparks have been known to exit old stoves with no screen over the draft plate. Not so bad if the fireplace is screened or glassed.

[gunman63]

I briefly looked into kiln drying firewood.  

A big advantage is that a firewood manufacturer can dry 4 to 7 cords in 3 to 5 days depending on species and initial moisture content.  Those figures were provided by the vendor I talked to.  I didn't crunch any numbers, but I'm sure for a larger scale firewood producer that's a whole lot better than waiting months or a whole year for cords and cords of firewood to season.  The other advantage that's already been mentioned is that laws are becoming more restrictive about how far firewood can be shipped if its not heat treated or kiln dried.

The reason I stopped thinking about kiln drying was the vendor gave me a quote of about $40,000 for a system (including all equipment, installation and setup, and freight) so basically a turnkey cost.  

I'm just getting started in the firewood business, so I am no where close to being ready to make that kind of
investment.  Still, the day might come where a dry kiln is what's needed in order to be more than just a
"hobby" firewood business.

I got a 20 ft container and built one for under $4000.00 dollars

what and how do u dry firewood, how many cords at a time, length of time to  dry, cost per cord?

[rcanderson1968]

Gunman,

Check out this website:

http://www.mountainfirewoodkilns.com/firewood_kiln.php

[CRThomas]

If you can sell it, it is still better than delivering and stacking by the cord....

My wife and me have worked with selling F/W. We live in a area of low income people let's say. We tried different types of selling. We have ended up taking our wood to the area where they got money to buy our wood. We do not sell in bulk we only sell bundled. people come by and want to buy bundles we say no. We do not have to have the volume of wood by bundling it. It's easier split,size,wrap and bag deliver. It is almost 0100 and I am ready to start my day I be loaded will take 8 bags with 30 in each bag eat breakfast at 0700 be at farmers market at 0900 should be sold out at 1500 this after noon at $2.50 a bundle. This system work after along time of different ways. I had employs before now just me and my wife for got my grand daughter help when she can. I have got customers that trust me they leave there house un locked and tell me to set two bundles on there fireplace. My equipment is always spotless. I only sell the inside of the log where the bundles look good and the out side to park. If you do wood try bundling one person can make a good income.

[CRThomas]

Hi,

I live in Portland, OR.  I'm thinking of starting a small, part-time firewood bundling business so that my sons can earn some spending cash and save some money for college.

I think there's a pretty good market for bundled firewood among all the suburbanites that can't make their own firewood, but still occasionally use firewood in a fireplace, backyard fire pit, or for camping.

I was wondering if anyone has experience in how to develop a market for bundled firewood?

Thanks,
I am in the wrapping firewood business. It has been very good to me after I got all the bugs out and the way it works for my area and me. I make a good living year round selling bundled firewood only.
When you do get in the business your fly by nighters will be a pain in the behind. Most fly by nights can't afford to do wrapped wood. Because they go out of business when the grass gets green. They will tell you they going to put you out of business. I have about $150,000.00 dollars invested in my wood wrapping business and that not counting my buildings 3 trucks, 2 front end loaders, 2 wrappers, 2 splitters, 2 chop saws, 100 of bag that hold a rank of wood, thousands of sand bags for chips, 1000 to 1500 tons of logs, my dryer, 3 trailers, saws and all the other tool to complete the jobs. Figure which way you want to go have back up money if you do not have a extra income. Stick you fing in the tub to see if it to hot don't jump in. Gooood luuuuck
Roy

[CRThomas]

Chuck does have a very well thought out and well built system.

just a change I made in my wrappers to please my customer to bring the weight down in the bottom of the box I put 2 half circles in bottom of each box cut it to a .65 my customers are elderly a full  12 x 12 was to heavy. It helps hold that circle to make the bundle look good. If wrapping for the park it doesn't make any difference I don't sell to the park any more it was more than I could handle. I love dealing with people personally. The fellow that takes care of the parks and camp ground call me for wood to keep up. The park bundles are even a load for me. I sell him the ugly wood that people don't want in there homes. My wood is the heart of the log I split off the bark.

[Buck]

CRT. I have read many of your post elsewhere and am glad to hear you are doing well with business. I couldnt figure if you were actually "making it" or not from what I had read. I knew you had good ideas. I would like to know more about your container kiln if you would share. Welcome to the Forestry Forum...I find this is a much better place to spend my down time.

[gunman63]

Gunman,

Check out this website:

http://www.mountainfirewoodkilns.com/firewood_kiln.php

nothign on there about cost per cord to  dry wood, looking for info  from  a person that has kilned dryed it, yes i know it varies.

[CRThomas]

Thanks for the info guys.  There really is a lot of good information on that thread.  By the way, I took the plunge and ordered a bundling machine today!

when you start wrapping be sure and look at your future customers. Campers want big bundles. Little old lady's down the street want what they can handle. Make a bundle and have your wife take it out of the bundler. Women spend money on stuff like this men spend there money on toys to play in the shop with. Always make your bundles pretty for the lady. If it looks and smell nice when burning and not messy. They be back for more. And women like to be waited on. Class your self as a catering service. Not a dime guy with a load of nastey wood mess up her house and scare her dog or cat. Chase later. Got two customers.

[CRThomas]

CRT. I have read many of your post elsewhere and am glad to hear you are doing well with business. I couldnt figure if you were actually "making it" or not from what I had read. I knew you had good ideas. I would like to know more about your container kiln if you would share. Welcome to the Forestry Forum...I find this is a much better place to spend my down time.

hey Buck since I tried all angles and ended up where I am at and spent a lot of money in the learning process this year has been very successful my work load has been cut to under half of what it was. Two couples come in and finish buying the rest of my bundles make my gross $600.00 to day at the farmers market it is now 1315 and I am going home. I am tired it's been a long day later Buck

[rcanderson1968]

Gunman,

I don't have any experience operating a firewood dry kiln, but I thought it would be interesting to try to estimate what drying would cost per cord.  So I did some figuring and came up with an estimate of about $40 per cord.

My estimate is based on the following assumptions:

- the kiln can hold 6 cords
- the drying time is 120 hours
- there's two, 2.5 HP of fans in the kiln that operate continuously and circulate the air at 500 cubic feet per minute.  Assuming power costs $0.10/kwh that works out to about $45 in power costs.  I'm no electrical engineer so I might be way off here.
- about 10,000 pounds of water need to be removed from the 6 cords of firewood and it takes about 1700 BTU per pound of water removed plus about 2.4 million btu's to initially heat the wood after it enters the kiln.  That works out to a heat need of about 165,000 BTU/hour.  
- Assuming you can deliver 4,500 btu per pound of wood burned you would need a little less than 1 cord of fuel wood to dry 6 cords of firewood.  I charged the operation $75/cord of wood for fueling the heating system.
- I also assumed $50 in labor cost for loading/unloading the kiln and tending the heating system while drying.
- finally I included a depreciation cost of $85/charge.  This is based on an all inclusive kiln capital cost of $30,000 (includes kiln box, fans, heating system, rolling stock for loading/unloading, and bins for storing firewood while drying).  A 5 year depreciation schedule and reducing the annual depreciation cost by the portion of the year needed to dry 1 charge (6 cords).

So the total cost is $240 to dry 6 cords or $40 per cord ($50 for labor, $63 for fuel, $45 for power, and $82 for depreciation).  

Like I said earlier, I have no experience operating a kiln, so this is just an estimate based on rough assumptions.  I'd welcome comments from anyone with figures based on actual experience, or with more refined numbers to use in the assumptions.

[John Mc]

rcanderson -

Shold some of the costs you listed as "per cord" actually be "per kiln load" (which is 6 cords)?

[rcanderson1968]

John Mc,

The costs I estimated were all per kiln charge.  They included $50 for labor, $63 for fuel, $45 for power, and $82 for depreciation.  They add up to $240 in total cost per charge.  I then divided $240 by the 6 cords per charge to arrive at an estimated kiln drying cost for firewood of $40 per cord.

I tried to explain how I developed all the estimates, but maybe too much explanation made it more confusing!

[John Mc]

John Mc,

The costs I estimated were all per kiln charge.  They included $50 for labor, $63 for fuel, $45 for power, and $82 for depreciation.  They add up to $240 in total cost per charge.  I then divided $240 by the 6 cords per charge to arrive at an estimated kiln drying cost for firewood of $40 per cord.

I tried to explain how I developed all the estimates, but maybe too much explanation made it more confusing!

I figured that out. The part I was commenting on was up in the middle of your post, you referred to some of these charges as being per cord, not per kiln charge (for example: "$75/cord of wood for fueling the heating system" and "I included a depreciation cost of $85/cord"). If those really were "per cord" charges, the cost of kiln drying would be higher than the selling price of a cord of seasoned hardwood around here.

I did not mean to sound critical. I think it's great that you went to the effort of figuring out these numbers and posting them. I understood what you meant after I did some figuring. Having these numbers is a great conversation starter for anyone thinking of getting in to kiln drying firewood.

Like you, I have no experience operating a kiln. However, I've often wondered if kiln-drying firewood would be "worth it" in my area.
___________________________

One assumption I would really like to hear feedback on from anyone with experience kiln-drying firewood:

You mentioned 120 hours to dry a charge of firewood. Does it really take 5 days for firewood, or can you speed things along since you are not concerned about warpage, checking, and all those other things you have to worry about when drying lumber? I don't know if it's possible, but if you could cut that time significantly that might change the equation a bit... both in cost per cord, and in overall through-put of a kiln.

John Mc

[CRThomas]

We bought a twister about a month ago. Electric model. We stockpile the pieces off the mill that we can't use, cut them to length, then toss them in a dumpster. We have a bay set up to put it in. Then when guys have time, or want a little overtime, they haul it over in the bucket of the skid steer and run it through. We also are attaching the handles to the bundles. I suppose we got half a dozen good sized pallets of it ready. I hope the wood can dry out in the bundles. This wood is the smaller stuff off the edgings of the mill.

keep it in a dry place and air flow. I have a wood burner with a fan in the tack to blow air it works I burn my trash wood in it solve two problems. Get red of my waste and dry the good stuff. My customers don't like bark it makes a mess. Later

[CRThomas]

rcanderson -

Shold some of the costs you listed as "per cord" actually be "per kiln load" (which is 6 cords)?

My kiln drier is a 20 ft container. I built a wood burner on the back of it with 2 tanks. It is set so I just throw my scrap in there. Fill it when I am away and close it up. I have 4 foot fan at the other end that pulls the air threw the wood. I can get 3 loads a week gross receivables from there loads is $1500 a week. But my wood is air dried for 1 to 3 years. be for it goes in the drier. Cost to build it is all that I spent. My big sellers are fruit woods and ash and poplar. So times people ask for hickory but I give them some fruit wood I get them out of the ditch that there is more than one way to skin a cat. I have customers for certain wood the way the want it. I can dry one rank in my shop down to 2 to 3 percent. For big barbecue shows they go to. One of my customers has been a top contender at Memphis in May 3 years in a row. When he comes to get it out of the drier and sealed in air tight bags. He pays me and says our little secret right yes.he pays me $2.50 a bag and a $100.00 tip. I am building on a 20 x 20 building now for my drier.
So this why I left the bulk firewood to the beer drinkers. I am just as busy in somer as winter. Later

[CRThomas]

CRT. I have read many of your post elsewhere and am glad to hear you are doing well with business. I couldnt figure if you were actually "making it" or not from what I had read. I knew you had good ideas. I would like to know more about your container kiln if you would share. Welcome to the Forestry Forum...I find this is a much better place to spend my down time.

I am 70 so I take break more than I use to on my breaks I am on here looking for ideas than make me a better firewood sales person. I dislike most bulk firewood sells they rip there customers off you see them unloading at somebody's house and drinking beer.  They get mad if the people pay them by check. They come in the cafe I go to the talk. Enough of that there many good ones to but we have to pay for the bad ones to. You have to love what ever you do or get out. Later

[Buck]

I too find that my customers come back to me year after year because they like being treated right. Many times I have gone in the late hours with just enough wood to keep an elderly couple through the night until I could return for a regular delivery. Word travels fast when you provide good product and service.  It sure leaves a lot of money on the table if you dont cash in on the bundled craze.  I still will have many bulk customers calling. First mild cool front came through yesterday here.  Nothing to really mention but over the last three days I have taken orders for about 10 cords. 

[CRThomas]

I too find that my customers come back to me year after year because they like being treated right. Many times I have gone in the late hours with just enough wood to keep an elderly couple through the night until I could return for a regular delivery. Word travels fast when you provide good product and service.  It sure leaves a lot of money on the table if you dont cash in on the bundled craze.  I still will have many bulk customers calling. First mild cool front came through yesterday here.  Nothing to really mention but over the last three days I have taken orders for about 10 cords. 

Good deal buck I like to see a fellow firewood man have to work to. My wife and some of her friends were down at the park some guy had gathered up stick and tied them in a bundle with bailing twin $1.00 a bundle got me worried might be out of business tomorrow. Got to bag some kindling. It's waste I was going to burn guy said he would give me $40.00 for the bag delivered it has every thing in it but all hard wood and fruit. Basically he's getting a good deal. He puts in in sandwich bags and sells it for a dollar a bag. Later Buck

[CRThomas]

rcanderson -

Shold some of the costs you listed as "per cord" actually be "per kiln load" (which is 6 cords)?

I have a friend puts his wood in his breeze way of his barn and drys his wood very good he always has a draft one way or the other later

[beenthere]

CR
Lots of ways to dry wood.

[CRThomas]

Hi rcanderson1968,

I live in Portland, OR.  I'm thinking of starting a small, part-time firewood bundling business so that my sons can earn some spending cash and save some money for college.

I think there's a pretty good market for bundled firewood among all the suburbanites that can't make their own firewood, but still occasionally use firewood in a fireplace, backyard fire pit, or for camping.

I was wondering if anyone has experience in how to develop a market for bundled firewood?

Thanks,I sell bundled firewood only I do very well but that is all I is bundled firewood. If you are the only one selling bundled firewood in your area that's your plus. Always keep some in your truck. Go to your local stores and see what they sell it at. If they pay $2.85 whole sale and sell for $5.00 then you can sell retail for $2.85. I sell for $2.50  chips in a bag for $1.50 a bag. This time of year is the best time to get started. A little ad in the paper. Park in a high traffic area with easy to get to your spot. When I go set up now I have to take around 10 rank of wrapped wood and my wrapper so I can make bundles like people like lots of news papers. My generator for my staple gun. My big fan when it's hot. I stand by my gen when it cold. You got to make mistakes to get good. I feel go with my self people tell me I am good at what I do. I made some very costly mistakes. So don't feel bad just write it of at tax time. You have to get out and shake the bushes. I got a good customer line but I have to stay with it or I lose them. Later
Roy

[CRThomas]

use the search engine and type in bundled firewood. There is a member doing very well in the Indy area.

I had a lady for me to take out the garbage. No problem p/u garbage bag walk by the trash can drop it get in my truck go to next customer. I been ask to mail letters. I set a bag of 30 in her spot and $75.00 to next customer. Been ask to set two by the fire place. Been ask to hold the dog while they put flea and tick medicine on them. Just makes good customers. Later

[CRThomas]

use the search engine and type in bundled firewood. There is a member doing very well in the Indy area.

I had a lady for me to take out the garbage. No problem p/u garbage bag walk by the trash can drop it get in my truck go to next customer. I been ask to mail letters. I set a bag of 30 in her spot and $75.00 to next customer. Been ask to set two by the fire place. Been ask to hold the dog while they put flea and tick medicine on them. Just makes good customers. Later My wife finally got the numbers after labor fuel equipment wrapper all extras we clear $1.23 a bundle. When you see it sell for $5.00 dollars it has to many people needing profit. I don't drive ten miles for 1 bundle. I have about finish a bundler off and my old log splitter is showing it time to replace it. I have a $150,000,00 worth of equipment and firewood and tax write off has pay for it. Never forget that tax write off.

[D4ster]

This may be hepful for those who are looking into kiln dried firewood bundling.  not perfect, but a good template.