Should I accept buggy wood for custom drying?

[LorenB]

My kiln isn't finished yet, so I turned down my potential customer already.  His request got me thinking. 

He wanted me to heat treat some ash that had ppb (powder post beetles) in it. 

Is it wise for me to allow such wood onto my property at all?  How much risk is there in getting that lumber from his truck into my kiln?  Is it likely that I can get a ppb infestation here from the beetles in his lumber? 

Obviously I have an obligation to my other customers to prevent infecting their lumber with ppb as it leaves the kiln.  Is it likely or even possible that this could happen if I allow incoming lumber that is infested? 

Having asked all this, I know that there are ppb's at other places on my property.  I have found evidence of ppb's in my firewood, which is stored about 200-300 yards from the kiln building.  Does this mean that it doesn't matter what I do about accepting infested wood because the ppb's are already here? 

Facts and opinions are both welcome.  Thanks. 

-- Loren

[Al_Smith]

I've had what I thought was gypsy moths get into the oak and of course ants into the hickory firewood .What it is about ants and green hickory I have no idea  ???

In both cases as strange as it might sound I hosed down both the oak lumber plus the hickory firewood with sevin from a water applicater .Dead ants every where and no more sawdust in the oak from what ever was chewing on it.

[Jeff]

Gypsy Moth caterpillars eat leaves not wood fiber. They then turn into moths that don't eat. they lay egg masses almost anywhere including houses and cars, but mostly on the trees upon which they feed. The egg masses look like little tan felt like patches. If you scrape them off, you can see the tiny eggs within. The male moth is a brown color and the females are white. Only the males fly. If their favorite species, oak is not available, they can and will defoliate many other species.

[Al_Smith]

Well I have no idea what was trying to eat my oak lumber .Made me angry though .

On that moth thing one of my big oak trees got covered with something a few years back .One day it looked like thousand greckles invaded the oaks eating the darned things .Nothing happened to the oak and that's the last I saw of that huge flock of birds .They stayed around couple of days going from oak to oak just a chirping and burping .

[beenthere]

The carpenter ants don't eat solid wood either. They only root around in decayed wood so they are good indicators of trouble.  But they do seem to scout a good distance from their nests, so may like the taste/smell/feel of the green hickory.

[Al_Smith]

It wasn't the big black carpenter ants .These things attacked perfectly solid green cut hickory like it was a stick of candy .I mean they chewed right through it .

There was about 5-6 cords in that one pile and 10 million ants until I gave them the treatment .Of course that killed them but you know after that hickory dried nary an ant fooled with it .

Whatever was eating the oak and it might have been that beetle ,once it had air dried no more problems .I'm sure the sevin got a few but I doubt it got all of them so who knows what it was . ???

[LorenB]

Gentlemen,

These are all interesting facts about insects, and I am learning a lot, but that doesn't address my basic question.  Should I refuse to dry lumber that has insects in it, especially powder post beetles? 

Thanks,
-- Loren

[Dan_Shade]

Do you have a good way to determine if you are in fact "sterilizing" the lumber?  Do you have a way to record the actual temperature?

Powderpost beetles are nasty.  I would schedule delivery where you can load it from the truck into the kiln when if I did it.

Do powderpost beetles only emerge during a certain time of year?

[beenthere]

LorenB
I don't see a reason for you to be paranoid about the PBB's, but that is a decision you will need to make for yourself. 
As you said, you already have them on your property, so maybe the question is moot. Or that the customer should worry that his lumber doesn't get infected before he gets it away. ;)

[YellowHammer]

I hate ppbs, and kiln dry/sterilize ppb lumber for sale to customers with confidence.  It's one of the reasons I bought a kiln with sterilization strips.  I have noticed that prior to the sterilization cycle, when the ppb infected wood is in the kiln drying and at higher temps the bugs seem go into overdrive, drilling out of the wood as if in a panic (at least I hope they are) 8), so if there a few holes in the wood going into the kiln, there will be a lot more when it is done.  For that reason, I would not consider mixing loads infected/non infected wood. After the wood is at my desired final EMC, I shut the compressor off and I run the kiln up to 145F for at least a couple days (at the recommendation of my kiln manufacturer) and check the wood every day looking for dead bugs. It will be obvious when you've finally started cooking them, their carcasses will be all over the boards and floor of the kiln.  Once I start seeing dead bugs, I check the wood to make sure I'm not ruining it at the elevated temps, then go for another day at 145, sometimes 150F, just to be sure.  I know the literature says 135F is sufficient, but at 145F I get great killing action.  I've seen bugs cooked with their head poking out of their hole, dead before they could even fully crawl out. 

After I remove the load, I shop vac the kiln real clean, and get ready for the next load.  I'll usually run a few boards through the planer and eyeball them looking for dead beetles still in their tunnels. Only when I'm sure everything has been killed, I'll sell the wood.

Not an overly scientific method, but it works.  As much wood as I have had ruined by the little buggers air drying before I installed my kilns, I really enjoy broiling them and salvaging lumber I would previously have put on the burn pile.

Around here ppbs are everywhere, and I assume every load of wood that I handle has been exposed to them. However, I allow no infested wood to sit around,  including sawdust.  It all goes into the bonfire at the end of the day.

YH

[WDH]

I can't answer your question specifically, but I do know that good hygiene around lumber stacks is a very important preventative measure. 

[Holmes]

YellowHammer   Excellent post.   WDH also.   

[LorenB]

Do you have a good way to determine if you are in fact "sterilizing" the lumber?  Do you have a way to record the actual temperature?

Powderpost beetles are nasty.  I would schedule delivery where you can load it from the truck into the kiln when if I did it.

Do powderpost beetles only emerge during a certain time of year?

Dan,

Actually, I don't have a kiln at all yet, but when I finally finish it I should have a way to monitor temperatures to determine if I am sterilizing the lumber. 

Both my son-in-law (helper) and I thought the same thing about loading it directly from the customer's truck into the kiln.  I thought that would probably be safe, but wanted to get opinions from people who know more about this stuff than I do.  I may go that route when the kiln is finished. 

Thanks,
– Loren

[LorenB]

LorenB
I don't see a reason for you to be paranoid about the PBB's, but that is a decision you will need to make for yourself. 
As you said, you already have them on your property, so maybe the question is moot. Or that the customer should worry that his lumber doesn't get infected before he gets it away. ;)

beenthere,

Touché.  I suspect it's fair that the customer should be concerned for his lumber after it comes out of the kiln as much as I'm concerned about getting them on my own wood. 

I guess that a new part to my question is, how far do powder post beetles roam?  If they are in the firewood shed that's 200-300 yards away, can I expect them to infest lumber coming out of the kiln?  That would be an issue not only for customers' lumber but also for my own lumber. 

Also, is Sevin (as reported by Al with his ant problem) effective against PPB's?  Would I just spray it in water like Al did?  Maybe I could treat the firewood and get rid of them entirely. 

Thanks for reminding me of this point.
– Loren

[LorenB]

YellowHammer,

I like your method.  What you are doing is pretty much what I intend to do after I get the kiln running. 

I don't know if PPB's are everywhere around here in southern Indiana.  I do know that I get them in my firewood.  If I kill them out in the firewood shed, I wonder if I'll just get more next season.  I suspect I would, but I don't know. 

I do have a slab pile that pretty much stays there until I get around to cleaning it up, maybe a few times a year, depending on how much wood I am cutting here (as opposed to on a customer's property).  Naturally I wind up with sawdust too, but that's easier to get rid of.  I usually spread it out around the fruit trees, or rototill it into the garden. 

Thanks for the useful information.
– Loren

[WDH]

I have to spray for them.  I cannot abide them, and I hates them.

[YellowHammer]

I'm with WDH, I hate powder post beetles with a vengeance.  No other bug has cost me so much money and damaged so much of my lumber.  Carpenter ants, termites and other such queen based colonies are not too hard to wipe out, just saw out the colony, get the queens, and the rest will die. Ppbs are completely different, as each beetle lays many eggs and you have to get every one of them, including the almost invisible larvae.  The ones you miss will reinfest the same wood.

Since ppb larvae are burrowed into the wood, surface spraying won't have any immediate effect, but will kill the beetles when they emerge and get exposed, usually in the late spring and early summer.  Of course, when they emerge they drill the hole, so the damage is done, then they die. 

I have a restricted use pesticide license and use Demon EC as my personal choice, but as with any insecticide, you have to be very careful.  Pretty much any commercial termaticide is effective against ppbs.  However, wood that I sell to other folks, I only use the boric acid based chemicals because they are non toxic to humans.

I don't actually spray my lumber with a sprayer anymore because its too slow, I mix the pesticide into the sawmill water lubrication system so the lumber gets treated when it gets sawn.  Just turn the flow up more than normal to get a good coating on the board faces.

Ppbs fly, so they can infest any wood they want, but usually, as per the literature and my experience, once wood has been kiln dried, they don't like it much.  But all lumber still needs to be watched.

A very large percentage of customer's logs that hit my deck have some sort of bug in them, so it's very important to educate the people on the issues with their wood as soon as it is delivered.  I always ask if they have bugs, they almost always say no, then when I show them the critters, they freak out, and after I explain that their wood can be salvaged with proper care they usually become very happy again.  I had a customer recently bring me some oak and hickory that had all three types living in the logs, termites, ants, and ppbs.  The burn pile was lit that day for sure, and they still had a lot of decent wood to take home.

YH

[WDH]

[quote author=YellowHammer link=topic=58972.msg859057#msg859057
I don't actually spray my lumber with a sprayer anymore because its too slow, I mix the pesticide into the sawmill water lubrication system so the lumber gets treated when it gets sawn.  Just turn the flow up more than normal to get a good coating on the board faces.
[/quote]

YH,

I am very interested in this process, so please say more.  Do you have to wash the sawmill down after use?  What is your formulation?  How much is enough?

[YellowHammer]

Sure, I'd be glad to go into more detail.

As part of the process of sawmill lubrication and tank mixing insecticides, it is very important to use chemicals that are considered safe to humans, preferably rated for kitchen or food establishment applications.  I also prefer to use liquid insecticides that are very concentrated and relatively inexpensive that have mix rates of approximately 1 oz per gallon of water.  For these reasons, I have the best results with tank mixing synthetic pyrethroids as part of my blade lubricant fluid.  Used as per the label, these pyrethroids are very safe to humans and other animals, but very active against most insects.  Suspend SC, a favorite of mine, is available over the counter or through Amazon, does not require a restricted use permit, and is a very effective and safe pyrethroid authorized for use in federally inspected meat and poultry plants.

I don't like to use wetted powders much, such a Sevin, as they have a tendency to settle and clog my lubrication system filters.  Also, many of the insecticides sold in the big box stores are actually pretty nasty to animals, so I don't use them. 

I also don't like to use insecticides that have a long residual activity, no more that 6 months.

For application rates, I normally mix 5 oz of insecticide with 5 gallons of lubrication water and whatever blade lube I happen to be using for that day.  Most all blade lubes are either detergent or oil based, so are effective carriers and surfactants to help transport the insecticide across the surface of the boards without have to flood them.

When sawing, I turn the lube up to where I know it is being carried well into the saw kerfs and saturating much of the sawdust which also helps apply it across the surface of the boards.  I adjust the flow based on visual inspection of the boards as I remove them from the mill so that they are not wet, but damp from the application of the lube/insecticide.  I don't know what my actual rate is, but I usually use about a gallon of lube per hour.  Wet wood doesn't need as much, dry wood needs more.

When I remove and brush the wetted sawdust from the boards, I make sure to use the opportunity to spread it across the boards as I remove it, to help insure good coverage.   

I don't do any unusual wash down or sanitation procedures other than a normal clean up after a day of sawing, both for the mill and myself.  I have a mill with a remote station, a dust chute and I always set the mill up to use the wind to blow the dust away from me so I make sure I do everything to minimize exposure to the sawdust.  I also use the safety gear that a normal sawmill operator would use. 

Here is a link to a good publication form the University of Florida Extension Office titled "Powder Post Beetle and Other Wood Infesting Pests" which has a list of insecticides that are effective for their control, including Suspend SC.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/IG/IG11900.pdf

So, I have found that blade lubrication application of insecticide to be very effective, but it must be done in a safe and technically responsible manner.  When in doubt, read the label.  Be safe.  Use safe products. Kill them all.

[WDH]

YH,

Good info.  Do you think that using the borate salt like Timbor or Solubor in the lube tank will work too?  Will there be enough coverage on the lumber to provide control?  Spraying is a real aggravation, so I am eager to do something easier like you have suggested, but I want to be sure that it is effective.  I probably put way too much on when I spray as I spray the lumber to wetness.

[YellowHammer]

I'm not sure about the borate insecticides because of the way they work, and the amount of wetting required.  I don't have a good feel for their minimum effective application rate, and if the blade will carry enough across the entire surface of the board.  Only one way to really find out....
YH

[Dan_Shade]

Do you use a lube mizer?  if so, does your method give you any fits with it?

I would be concerned with the borates clogging up the lines....

[YellowHammer]

I don't have a Lubemizer, so I don't know the filter/orifice size of the sytem but clogging would be a concern using an insoluble, wettable powder.  Also, the borates I have used in the past needed to be mixed in a relatively large concentration so they may cause other issues with the systems of the Lubemizer like settling, increased wear, etc.  That's one of the reasons I've gravitated to the highly concentrated, lower dose per gallon types of insecticides even with my simple drip system, intuitively the they should cause less trouble.

LorenB, I didn't mean to hijack your thread,

YH
 

[LorenB]

LorenB, I didn't mean to hijack your thread,

YH

YH,

No problem.  I pretty much got the answer I was looking for.  It seems that I might as well accept the lumber, since I already have PPB's on the property. 

The information you are providing is giving me what I need to know to get rid of them.  Thanks. 

– Loren