Dealing with employees who quit

[redprospector]

;D Maybe that's it. I had one boss (I liked him pretty well) who knew in part of his brain that he was a softy on people. He one day told me he should stop calling his business a farm and start calling it "_____ Brothers Savings and Loan." He would loan some of his people money to buy a vehicle or a house, and take it out of their paycheck. There were some who got a loan and skipped town.

He also had a quick temper and would fire people pretty rapidly. Sometimes very legitimately, sometimes because of stupid stuff. Usually because of a lack of responsibility at some level. But he never quit liking most people, because he would get over the blowup and it was all in the past. He wasn't the sort to hold grudges. Sometimes, whomever he fired would come around to visit a couple months later, they would strike up a conversation, the boss would ask, "so what are you doing these days?" They'd say, "Oh, nothing much, just trying to find work" and he'd say, "Well, so and so just quit the other day. You want to come back?" And he'd say, "Oh, I guess so." And he'd be back to work.

One guy held the record. He had been fired four times. On the final time, the boss told him, "Go home, leave your truck here, and we'll call it even."

Hahaha, that sounds a lot like me. Except the "quick temper" part. I can't remember the last time I raised my voice to an employee. If I've got to yell at you, you're too much trouble.  :D
If I fire a man, he will stay fired. I won't subject myself to being pushed that far twice by the same man.
I have hired a couple of guy's back that had quit though.

Andy

[Okrafarmer]

Well, you'd have to have known this guy, he's a real character. I enjoy stopping in to see him every time I go that way, which is more and more seldom these days.

[thenorthman]

So my logging venture is just me and a partner, occasionally the wife, in other words no one to fire or quit.  But I have quit a few jobs and been fired from a few,  the ones I got fired from 50-50 my fault/horrible bosses/I got setup.  The ones I quit where either I had the chance to make more money, hated the outfit, or just plain got tired of the job I was working.  The point is (I am quite drunk now) If they quit there really is nothing you can do about it, if everyone else is happy and been around awhile don't worry too much as long as you're still paying competitive wages.  The fact that you are concerned enough to ask what to do, means to me at least that you're a boss that does care about you're employees, which can mean allot to the werkin stiffs, as long as they are getting paid, and bennys are up to standard fir you're area, and they arn't completely dog tired at the end of the day no worries right? (but then I am drunk right now) ;)

[Okrafarmer]

That wasn't too bad a post, for being drunk.

[redprospector]

So my logging venture is just me and a partner, occasionally the wife, in other words no one to fire or quit.  But I have quit a few jobs and been fired from a few,  the ones I got fired from 50-50 my fault/horrible bosses/I got setup.  The ones I quit where either I had the chance to make more money, hated the outfit, or just plain got tired of the job I was working.  The point is (I am quite drunk now) If they quit there really is nothing you can do about it, if everyone else is happy and been around awhile don't worry too much as long as you're still paying competitive wages.  The fact that you are concerned enough to ask what to do, means to me at least that you're a boss that does care about you're employees, which can mean allot to the werkin stiffs, as long as they are getting paid, and bennys are up to standard fir you're area, and they arn't completely dog tired at the end of the day no worries right? (but then I am drunk right now) ;)

Ok, maybe that's another of my faults as a modern day employer. If I'm paying a man (or woman for that fact) $20 or more an hour, I pretty much expect them to be completely dog tired at the end of the day.

Andy

[Mooseherder]

That wasn't too bad a post, for being drunk.

Foster Brooks comes to mind when I hear that word.  :D

[SwampDonkey]

Keep them "dog tired" and maybe they will get to bed at night to be on time tomorrow. And maybe sober. I had one fellow who thought work was when he felt like it after 5 days of drinking, then one good week, then recycle. Sent him down the road. On top of that was some family planning issues and a little bank fraud mixed in. ;D :D

Try thinning, I bet you'll get to bed at night. ;)

[thenorthman]

Sober now... Anyway keep a guy/gurl too tired and hes likely not to want to come back tomarow, feeling like you put in a hard days work is one thing but getting home and crashing on the couch is another, especially if'n they gots a family they want to spend time with, or projects around the house to deal with.  The point is even if your paying the best money around money isn't everything work is just a means to an end for most people, and if they quit well EDITED BY ADMIN  as long as it don't become epidemic...

[redprospector]

Sober now... Anyway keep a guy/gurl too tired and hes likely not to want to come back tomarow, feeling like you put in a hard days work is one thing but getting home and crashing on the couch is another, especially if'n they gots a family they want to spend time with, or projects around the house to deal with.  The point is even if your paying the best money around money isn't everything work is just a means to an end for most people, and if they quit well EDITED BY ADMIN  as long as it don't become epidemic...

Well, I guess that's another one of my dinasaur traits. That job is how they can afford to have a family (just like me). I try to pay my people well, and a lot of times, at the end of the job, they will have made more per hour than me (yeah I know, that's the nature of being self employed). They show up at 6 and work until 3. I show up at 4:30 and stay until everything is maintained, and repaired (usually 7 or 8, but sometimes 10 or 12) so that they can go to work and make their wages. Yep, I've given them everything I've got, so I expect them to give me everything they've got. If they crash on the coutch, that's fine with me because I'm still working so that they can make their 8 tomorrow.
I understand family time, that's why they seldom work Saturday's, and never work Sunday's. If they have something they feel they need to take time off for, all I ask is some advance notice so that I can make plans to acomodate them without disrupting progress too bad.
If that's asking too much, well I guess I should lower my expectations. Of corse lower expectations come with lower wages, they could have more time off and not be tired, but they might not be able to afford to do anything. They might not be able to drive late model trucks if I cut my expectations in half (along with their wages).
It seems that a lot of people have lost sight of the fact that if their employer isn't making money, they won't be making money either. Everyone want's to make $20 or better an hour, but they don't understand that they need to make their employer $40 an hour just to break even. Employers aren't there to break even, they have to make a profit or they can't stay in business.
It's economics 101.

Andy

[Okrafarmer]

Trying to say it kindly, Red, it sounds to me like you actually don't have a viable business plan, if you have to put in 100 hours a week to make it work. That's going to kill you. Maybe you enjoy putting in all those hours, but it sounds to me like you don't really. We call people like that a workaholic. Someone who is so addicted to what they are doing that they can't make themselves back off. They are often driven by the idea (often real, often imagined) that if they don't work all those hours, their business will fall apart.

Now, with most business owners, there are times when desperate attention and long hours are needed in order to make it through temporary rough times. But when that comes to be a way of life, then something has to give. I have worked for bosses like that before. They were high-strung, difficult to deal with, and two of them tended to throw temper tantrums all the time, which made them real fun to be around.

One of those guys, his business would have gone fine if he had just backed off and given some of his management load to his family members and employees. Eventually, he had to, when he developed kidney failure, and cancer in his 50's. Surprise-- the business is going strong today, and he is now working 20-40 hours and his sons are doing most of the management.

The other guy, I have never heard how he is doing, but he truly had bitten off more than he could chew, he was sick as a dog, his marriage was on the rocks, the bank was growling at his door, and he truly did not have a viable business plan. He was in his mid 30's when I left-- and that was about 14 years ago-- and it would surprise me if he is still alive today. His whole demeanor was that of a drug addict, yet I don't think he was on anything, as far as I know, and he didn't drink or smoke even.

It's not wrong to put in a lot of hours, but if doing so makes you feel bitter toward those who don't, or if you end up still not making any more money, per year, or per hour, than your employees, it might be time to rethink things. I know I wouldn't continue on with a business like that. That's called spinning your wheels.

There may be ways to make your existing business more profitable. If the same thing is going on year after year, and this mode of existence is not merely a temporary thing, then maybe you need to look at it with a fresh perspective and see what it would take to make it more profitable and/or more enjoyable.

Or, if you are happy with the way things are, just keep on going. But it doesn't sound to me like you are.

[240b]

I worked part time for an outfit just the opposite of Red. The owner told me "Daddy told me if you were working' more'an 8 hrs a day somethings wrong" Huh?, I thought.  I worked alone for twenty plus years in the  woods, NOBODY I knew who was self employed EVER operated this way. So I thought this ought to be interesting. Well, something broke one day,and it was almost fixed (maybe two more hours and out of the shop.) Nope 4 o'clock, drop every thing and leave for the day. Heck this guy was peeling' out of the parking lot and the help was still cleaning up.(all the time, I alway thought the owner was last to leave.) So, now the whole next am was shot. Thing should have been finished and hauled out to the woods for the next day. He expected you to work 10+ hrs a day and you pay for eight. If I am driving your truck to your job with your employees in it. I think I ought to be on the clock. I have no problem with 10 12 hrs but a least pay the help for the time.  The other guys who had been there for years didn't like it but, were resigned to the fact that thats the way it is.  The guys wife told me not to call him if something broke down. "He'll get too upset" well, I did call him when equipment failed. I don't care, its his junk he needs to know. So, the usually answer was some sarcastic come back."The loader blew a packing, what do you want to do?"(fix it on site,pull the cylinder fix at shop?) "(*^^&($# %&%&%)*Y%$#^$**^*&, a normal person would fix it."  " OK, SOO what do YOU want to do?" Needless to say this behavior got pretty old. The business was(is) always behind on finishing jobs. Duh,Thats not to hard to figure out why. One of the other employees suggested we all carry crystal balls to consult, before addressing the owner.
Where I come from you work till dark, because somethings going break tomorrow or the weather is going to stink. You work till the equipments running again. And if somebody is helping you, treat them well, and I don't mean just with a pay check. 
Some young guy who I was talking to once said something about a business plan to me, said he needed to write one up. I think I said, that sounded like a fine idea. It is good to know your costs. Keep that paper in the truck because you'll need some tp someday, now go get to work.     Best advice I ever got was; be able to pay ALL the bills by working just two days per week, because the other four are going to be used by bad weather, looking at jobs, getting parts,waiting for other people,general screw ups,etc.....And always get one more hitch everyday..   Working for your self is lifestyle and a job, if you don't want that go punch a clock.

[clww]

240b-I enjoy your thinking and what you wrote. ;)

[redprospector]

Trying to say it kindly, Red, it sounds to me like you actually don't have a viable business plan, if you have to put in 100 hours a week to make it work. That's going to kill you. Maybe you enjoy putting in all those hours, but it sounds to me like you don't really. We call people like that a workaholic. Someone who is so addicted to what they are doing that they can't make themselves back off. They are often driven by the idea (often real, often imagined) that if they don't work all those hours, their business will fall apart.

Now, with most business owners, there are times when desperate attention and long hours are needed in order to make it through temporary rough times. But when that comes to be a way of life, then something has to give. I have worked for bosses like that before. They were high-strung, difficult to deal with, and two of them tended to throw temper tantrums all the time, which made them real fun to be around.

One of those guys, his business would have gone fine if he had just backed off and given some of his management load to his family members and employees. Eventually, he had to, when he developed kidney failure, and cancer in his 50's. Surprise-- the business is going strong today, and he is now working 20-40 hours and his sons are doing most of the management.

The other guy, I have never heard how he is doing, but he truly had bitten off more than he could chew, he was sick as a dog, his marriage was on the rocks, the bank was growling at his door, and he truly did not have a viable business plan. He was in his mid 30's when I left-- and that was about 14 years ago-- and it would surprise me if he is still alive today. His whole demeanor was that of a drug addict, yet I don't think he was on anything, as far as I know, and he didn't drink or smoke even.

It's not wrong to put in a lot of hours, but if doing so makes you feel bitter toward those who don't, or if you end up still not making any more money, per year, or per hour, than your employees, it might be time to rethink things. I know I wouldn't continue on with a business like that. That's called spinning your wheels.

There may be ways to make your existing business more profitable. If the same thing is going on year after year, and this mode of existence is not merely a temporary thing, then maybe you need to look at it with a fresh perspective and see what it would take to make it more profitable and/or more enjoyable.

Or, if you are happy with the way things are, just keep on going. But it doesn't sound to me like you are.

Well, I actually have a business plan, and we're pretty much right on track. I'll be initiating phase III early next year. I love what I do, I am not short tempered, or even rude to the people who work for me. I do however expect an honest day's work for an honest day's pay. I get frusterated when someone tears something up to get out of doing something. Just makes extra work for me, and I've got plenty to do. It also messes up the flow of progress. My Dad used to say it was a 5 dollar bill waiting on a nickle when crap like that happened.
I think you hit pretty close on the problem in an earlier post. People aren't being taught to work at a young age. Heck, most of them are never taught to work anymore. Whether it's from a broken home, or what ever, it seems a majority feel that if you're actually expected to break a sweat....well, that's cruel and unusual punishment.
I don't know if you have employee's or if this is an exchange from both ends of the spectrum.
I work a lot of hours because I have a responsibility to the people that work for me. I can't tell them "go home, machine's broken". They need 40 hrs. a week, and it's my responsibility to make sure they have it. But in return, they should feel a responsibility towards the company, and that is usually where the problems start.
I was taught that if you're being treated right, and the company is doing what you were told when you signed on, that you owed them all that you could do. I'm not saying that the boss is alway's right, or that there aren't bosses who are jerks, but most of the people I've gone through feel that by gracing your job with their presence should be enough.

Andy

[redprospector]

I worked part time for an outfit just the opposite of Red. The owner told me "Daddy told me if you were working' more'an 8 hrs a day somethings wrong" Huh?, I thought.  I worked alone for twenty plus years in the  woods, NOBODY I knew who was self employed EVER operated this way. So I thought this ought to be interesting. Well, something broke one day,and it was almost fixed (maybe two more hours and out of the shop.) Nope 4 o'clock, drop every thing and leave for the day. Heck this guy was peeling' out of the parking lot and the help was still cleaning up.(all the time, I alway thought the owner was last to leave.) So, now the whole next am was shot. Thing should have been finished and hauled out to the woods for the next day. He expected you to work 10+ hrs a day and you pay for eight. If I am driving your truck to your job with your employees in it. I think I ought to be on the clock. I have no problem with 10 12 hrs but a least pay the help for the time.  The other guys who had been there for years didn't like it but, were resigned to the fact that thats the way it is.  The guys wife told me not to call him if something broke down. "He'll get too upset" well, I did call him when equipment failed. I don't care, its his junk he needs to know. So, the usually answer was some sarcastic come back."The loader blew a packing, what do you want to do?"(fix it on site,pull the cylinder fix at shop?) "(*^^&($# %&%&%)*Y%$#^$**^*&, a normal person would fix it."  " OK, SOO what do YOU want to do?" Needless to say this behavior got pretty old. The business was(is) always behind on finishing jobs. Duh,Thats not to hard to figure out why. One of the other employees suggested we all carry crystal balls to consult, before addressing the owner.
Where I come from you work till dark, because somethings going break tomorrow or the weather is going to stink. You work till the equipments running again. And if somebody is helping you, treat them well, and I don't mean just with a pay check. 
Some young guy who I was talking to once said something about a business plan to me, said he needed to write one up. I think I said, that sounded like a fine idea. It is good to know your costs. Keep that paper in the truck because you'll need some tp someday, now go get to work.     Best advice I ever got was; be able to pay ALL the bills by working just two days per week, because the other four are going to be used by bad weather, looking at jobs, getting parts,waiting for other people,general screw ups,etc.....And always get one more hitch everyday..   Working for your self is lifestyle and a job, if you don't want that go punch a clock.

Well said! 

Andy

[davch00]

I can attest to sometimes people get bored, tired of what they are doin, or want to do something different. A few months ago I finally got enough of the place I use to work and left and went to work somewhere else. I gave up some money in doing so but I also know money isn't everything.

If you are working that much and complaining about employees it kinda sounds like you might need to hire someone to help you manage and/or repair stuff.

About expecting someone to be dead tired everyday is a bit much unless you are paying extremely well. A honest days work is one thing but being dog tired every day is another. I know I wouldn't deal with that for very long. As I have told bosses before, I have a life outside of where I work. I know so people don't but I do. I do agree with that a lot of people are just plain lazy but there are good ones out there.

Anyways that's just my $0.02, I hope you can work something out for yourself.

[drobertson]

This thread has to have the record for the longest winded posts I can remember, And if I am wrong, then it wont be the first time.  Drinking and work have been around for many, many years. It always has the tail tell sign of disgruntlement.  This is why I believe in a close communication with the ones who are the closest to the front.  They fell like, (my experience) to be taken advantage of.  Contracts, or no contracts, everyone is responsible for their own decisions, but when booze inters the picture, the focus is always off. It takes an up front approach with respect and resolve.   I have to say, love and forgiveness covers a multitude of sin, for all parties.
Not trying to be a holy roller, just saying we all have issues that need refineing. There is a great story about a lost son, lost coin and lost sheep that come to mind, there is a value in the most minascule items,  david

[thurlow]

Not knocking anyone who's spent his/her life working for someone else (someone's gotta do it), but if you've never been the 'boss', you ain't got a clue.  I've signed paychecks on both the front and the back.......... 

[Corley5]

  The last guy that I had quit.  I guess he quit anyway.  I told him to take a couple weeks off and at the end of two weeks he was to call and I'd start him on the next job.  He got too far ahead on the job we were on and we lost some maple sawbolts to stain  >:(  That was my fault for not monitoring the situation better.  I had told him to slow up on the sawtimber and concentrate on the pulp until the forwarder caught up.  He knew more than I did and kept cutting.  When I paid him for the last week he brought up some money he felt I owed him for some work he'd done on my house.  He's an out of work general contractor.  I asked him for a bid on the drywall after he finished a couple smaller jobs and if he figured out a materials list I'd pay for it as I planned to bid the job not just let it to him.  His materials list was worthless.  He figured all the ceilings for 4X8 sheets.  That was the 1st thing I saw when he handed it to me.  I never referenced it again and came up with my own list.  We had some 16' sheets for the ceiling on ours.  He wanted me to pay him 125.00 for it when he got his last check for logging.  That was almost seven months later and after I gave him a job in February when he was down to rice and beans and paid him well.  I didn't pay him for his drywall list and his bid was high by $1,500.00 anyway.  He told me that it wasn't fair because he had so much work into it and I told him I wasn't paying for something that did me no good whatsoever and I never even referenced.  And then he told me he didn't believe that  >:( >:(  He left without that money.  Two weeks came and went and he didn't call me.  The catch is that he had my almost new 2172 Jonsered and associated supplies.  I called him at three weeks and he wouldn't answer his phone and his voice mail was off.  I tried several times over the next couple weeks and he wouldn't answer.  One day I was pulling out of a driveway after a firewood delivery closer to his neighborhood and I saw him coming in his pickup a 1/2 mile away.  He snubbed me.  Didn't wave when I did, no acknowledgement at all and then didn't answer his phone.  There was no possible way that he didn't see and recognize me.  I pulled out behind him as we were both headed towards town and he musta been doing ninety the way he left me in the dust.  I wasn't chasing him but it was pretty obvious he was avoiding me.  I tried to call him several more times that evening before I called the sheriff's dept with the story and the saw's serial #.  I took delivery of my saw with extra chains and bars from a deputy later in the evening.  I took it to the saw shop for a check up the next day and it was fine.\  That's my latest employee fiasco.  I fired a guy because he needed more $$$ to work harder.  He felt he wasn't getting paid enough to show up on time and work a full day.  Another guy quit before he got fired.  I jumped on him for spending much of my time talkng on his cell phone and smoking cigarettes while sitting in his truck.  When my other guy told him he'd better shape up he said it didn't matter that I was making lots of money anyway  : >:( : >:( >:( >:( >:(  I'm down to myself and one guy who likes what he does  8) 8) 8)   

[redprospector]

This thread has to have the record for the longest winded posts I can remember, And if I am wrong, then it wont be the first time.  Drinking and work have been around for many, many years. It always has the tail tell sign of disgruntlement.  This is why I believe in a close communication with the ones who are the closest to the front.  They fell like, (my experience) to be taken advantage of.  Contracts, or no contracts, everyone is responsible for their own decisions, but when booze inters the picture, the focus is always off. It takes an up front approach with respect and resolve.   I have to say, love and forgiveness covers a multitude of sin, for all parties.
Not trying to be a holy roller, just saying we all have issues that need refineing. There is a great story about a lost son, lost coin and lost sheep that come to mind, there is a value in the most minascule items,  david

You callin' me long winded?  :D

Andy

[redprospector]

Not knocking anyone who's spent his/her life working for someone else (someone's gotta do it), but if you've never been the 'boss', you ain't got a clue.  I've signed paychecks on both the front and the back..........

I can't imagine how this could have been worded any better.
I think this thread has been an exchange between those who employ, and those who are employed. Maybe we all learned something about the expectations of the other, but at the end of the day it's the bottom line that rules.

Andy

[Okrafarmer]

If there's one guy who's hard to work for, and I mean real bad, it's the guy who has a business, and has never worked for someone else in his life. There are a few of them out there. Ooooh, there are indeed.  :-\ But not many, thankfully.

[thenorthman]

In my straight job, I am a supervisor (whatever that means...) so every once in a while I have to make the decision who gets to go and who gets to stay.  This is not something I consider fun.  However sometimes its very easy who gets to leave and not come back...  The last thing I want to do is fix someone else's mistakes, they should fix them, then they learn, if they don't learn, then goodbye.  If a guy is messing things up on purpose then he should be sent home to think about it (its childish behavior treat them like a child) does it again then take a hike and don't let the door hit ya on the way out... Normally I'm a pretty nice guy get your work done and everything is grand, if I am doing your job for you, HULK GET MAD.
    That being said fore those of you that are full time employers.  There is no reason that you should clean up my mess or anyone else's, make the mess maker do it "oh you ran the skidder into the swamp and left it there over night... grab  a "hand" shovel and start digging I want it out before sunrise or go home" etc.  May seem hard nosed but it won't take long to get your point across.

[Okrafarmer]

At the end of the day / week / month / year, it's a two-way street. Different people will act in different ways, because we are all different. I've been at my current job for three years now, longer than any other. My boss knows that my current position is merely a stepping stone to the next thing, and he and I have been talking about that for the last two years. We're finally getting closer to the reality of my next thing, and it's something we're both looking forward to, because it looks like my next thing will still involve and benefit him.

I hope, within the next year, to be an employer. I hope that being an employee or contractor for half my life has prepared me for the fearsome battles ahead.  :-\

[thenorthman]

If there's one guy who's hard to work for, and I mean real bad, it's the guy who has a business, and has never worked for someone else in his life. There are a few of them out there. Ooooh, there are indeed.  :-\ But not many, thankfully.

Ah the joys of working for Rickey rich, and his sister Shirley maintenance, Whats worse the lack of understanding pay check to pay check or the worthless office parties to boost "moral" I'm going to go with the Umbrella I got one year in lieu of a christmas bonus.  I live in Warshington dummy we don't use umbrellas hear except for fencing... and what about the 3,000,000 dollar profit you posted last month oh yeah you bought a hummer...(I'll stop ranting now) non of this was made up by the way... 

[redprospector]

In my straight job, I am a supervisor (whatever that means...) so every once in a while I have to make the decision who gets to go and who gets to stay.  This is not something I consider fun.  However sometimes its very easy who gets to leave and not come back...  The last thing I want to do is fix someone else's mistakes, they should fix them, then they learn, if they don't learn, then goodbye.  If a guy is messing things up on purpose then he should be sent home to think about it (its childish behavior treat them like a child) does it again then take a hike and don't let the door hit ya on the way out... Normally I'm a pretty nice guy get your work done and everything is grand, if I am doing your job for you, HULK GET MAD.
    That being said fore those of you that are full time employers.  There is no reason that you should clean up my mess or anyone else's, make the mess maker do it "oh you ran the skidder into the swamp and left it there over night... grab  a "hand" shovel and start digging I want it out before sunrise or go home" etc.  May seem hard nosed but it won't take long to get your point across.

Hahaha, I love it. Hard nosed? I don't think so. Unfortunatly the skidder is down for at least another day with this method and that's money out of the bottom line. In a case like this, I would meet him the next morning and say "I can't believe you even showed up this morning". Here's a check for what I owe you, have a nice life. Then I'd get the skidder out of the swamp and start changing fluids (I just couldn't trust that job to him after what he'd done).
It would be fun to hand him a shovel though.  :D
It's never fun when you have to be the one to decide who stays & who goes, and being a supervisor, you are the man that takes a little pressure off of the man that you work for.  8)

Andy