Bad condensers

[bandmiller2]

Alot of us are running old tractors,myself all mine are from the 50's.Went to start my JD420 crawler today spun over, smelled fuel, checked no spark.I have noticed in the last few years the ignition condensers are of poor quality and are always suspect.I use delco and even their problematic.My standard procedure with no spark is test light,file points and check for opening,then replace the condenser. Frank C.

[beenthere]

Had a 420U and a 420C and know what you mean. But all in all, both were pretty good starters.
Sitting for any length seemed to have an effect.

A friend fought the same with his Ford 8N. He had two bad condensers back to back, and thought the problem had to be something else.  But wasn't, after chasing down several other things to no avail and plenty of expense.

[Al_Smith]

I've never really had a problem with them .I just burn the points up from running a 6 volt system on 12 volts with no ballast resiser .Got a hot spark though I'll say that .

I don't know if you can still find a Mallory but they used to be about the most heavy duty you can buy .I'd about think so though because the Delco style ignition was used on a lot of things

[Corley5]

  I'm replacing points and condensors with Petronix electronic ignition modules.  They've come down enough in price while points and condensors have gone up that it's worth the extra $$$ to upgrade.  I changed over my 2010 JD last summer.  It always ate points and fouled plugs.  The Petronix module seems to have solved the problem.  I mowed the vineyard, and barnyards more than once  ;) with no more issues.

[bandmiller2]

Al,I use the old Chrysler ballast resistors they give you full volts on start up then drop as they warm,or at least claim to.Al is there a simple way to check condensers without the tester, and I don't meen 110v then grab it.??Frank C.

[Al_Smith]

You can do it with a volt-ohm meter with a standard swing movement .Put it on ohms and charge it up then switch it to volts which should show a meter swing as it dischages .

I've got a Fluke meter that has a capaciter checker built into it so that's an option too .

I've used Chrysler ballast resisters with a diode bypassing same from the starter circuit which gave 12 on start and 6 on run .I snatched the resister for something and forgot where I put the darned thing .They are only about 5 bucks but my memory is short and I keep forgetting to get another .I'd forget my head I think if it weren't attached .

[Al_Smith]

Let me point out something .On a battery ignition if the condenser is off sized it will burn the points either ground side or battery side depending on weather it's over capacited  or under .I forgot which is which but you can Google it I'm sure .

On  magneto  points unless it's a racing mag like a Chet Hunt or Vortex you really don't see much points burning and the size is not that critical .If it will fit it will normally work .Fact I've got a Delco condenser on an Eiseman mag on a D4 Cat pony engine installed on the outside via the kill switch terminal which has worked for 30 plus years .Hah I wasn't even a twinkle in the old mans eye when that thing was made .

[millwright]

My 420 used to go through a condenser about 2 times a year, then when the old 6 volt battery needed replacing I replaced it with an 8 volt. It started ;much better and has not gone through any more condensers.

[bandmiller2]

I can remember with the old breaker point systems in cars they said if the points just show normal wear the condenser is fine just replace the points.With the demise of points in modern machines I think they figure one size fits all,probibly made by Hong Kong Harry anyways. Puttermiller2

[Corley5]

  The last set of points and a condenser I bought at Car Quest cost me close to thirty bucks.  They can be had cheaper at TSC and probably are all made in the same factory somewhere in China  :(  :  The points were toast after a season of haying and the spark plugs were fouling even when the points and condensor were fresh.  I was planning to re-ring the engine and have the head rebuilt.  I got the Petronix kit from YTmag's store last spring for about $80.00 after using the tractor for some light disking and it was running like crap.  It solved all the above problems  8) 8)  The engine still smokes a bit, it couldn't solve that  ;D, but it hasn't fouled a plug and it did away with the points and condensor.  Eighty dollars well spent  ;D and it took less time to install than new points and condenser    I had to drill the hole in the dust cover slightly larger but it was a direct bolt in otherwise.  When the Petronix stuff first came out I looked into them and they were too expensive to the tune of $275.00 for the 2010's Delco distributor as I remember.  I put quite a few hours on the tractor running a 7' finish mower last summer without a hiccup.  I'm sold on them and can't see myself messing around with points etc. in the future.

[beenthere]

Corely5
Is this video pretty much the way you had to install your kit? Not likely the exact same kit but looks pretty straight forward.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyk22-sVRhE

[r.man]

My auto shop teacher wouldn't replace the condenser unless it tested bad. He didn't like the odds that the new condenser would be bad and his habits were formed in the 70s.

[Corley5]

Can't watch the video right now.  Hughes Net is too busy  : >:( >:(

[Corley5]

That install is more involved than a simple 4 cyl tractor distributor but similar non the less  ;D   I don't recall that I needed a feeler gauge  and there was no call for shims    I had more time involved finding the right bit to drill out the dust cover than anything else.

[Corley5]

And I didn't need to pull the distributor 

[bandmiller2]

Thanks Corley,thats a good solutioin. Frank C.

[Al_Smith]

I think the last tune up kit I got was from TSC and it came from Mexico .You can find them on flea bay quite often also .Sometimes reasonable sometimes like they are a national treasure which is just e- bay being e-bay .

My problems are self inflicted because of my absent mindedness of not reinstalling a ballast resister .I also have became quite adept at changing starter brushes also because 12 volts on a 6 volt starter really draws the amps .On the other hand it really spins it over with gusto .Quite frankly those old 6 volt systems I think you could do better with a crank in cold weather because they weren't worth a hoot .

[36 coupe]

Testing condensers with an ohmmeter is a waste of time.The meters in use today use a 1.5 volt battery on the ohms range.When the points open there is a 2 to 3 hundred volt pulse across the condenser.Condensers absorb moisture over time.They develope what we call leakage in electronics.I use a condenser tester that applies 400 volts dc. to the condenser.Started in electronics in 1950 and never used an ohmmeter to test a condenser.Condensers that develope leakage change capacity.This will burn points and provide a weak spark.My tractor has been running on the same points and condenser for 24 years now.Ive had to clean the points twice when the engine shut down.I check the gap when the spring work starts.A friend had his 9N Ford distributor here.The points were burned and we could not get  an .015 gap because the adjustment screw hole was punched wrong.I found a new set in my shop.The new points  adjusted fine.Some new parts are junk so you are better off with old original parts.If you can find an old time Radio man have him test your condensers before you toss them out.I worked for Franklin Radio Co in the 50s and worked as a mechanic for a Ford dealer during that time.

[Al_Smith]

Well what might appear to be a waste of time to some can in fact provide a simple although  not totaly effective test for others .On the other hand I've only been at it for about 45 years ,what do I know . ;)

[Clean Image]

I'm in the middle of restoring my 861 and thought about upgrading the points/condenser to an an electronic setup...just had a hard time justifying the $150 expense, especially with all the other needs that keep popping up as I get deeper into this project. Pertronix was a little better at $120 but I can buy a lot of condensers for that amount of change!
If I ran my equipment like you guys do, I don't think it would be an issue but at this point I just need to get this piece of American iron back into service  ;D 


 

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I gotta say....when you do a project, you do it right. 

Good-Luck on finishing and post some pics.

[bandmiller2]

When in the navy my specialty was rebuilding starters and generators.Had a big old wooden bench and used to lay everything in order.We had a bunch of diddlers in the shop that had to handle everything.I'd charge caps to 110v and leave them on the bench,my bench was off their tour. Frank C.

[Al_Smith]

Well that would be a good test ,light-em up a tad. :D

BTW those big old 600 VDC 2500 MFD electrolytic Mallorys I use as starter caps for phase converters would probabley stun a horse.

I don't know with all this talk of changing points type ignitions over to solid state switching. Do people experiance that much problems with points?

[pineywoods]

Times are a changing. Condensers aren't what they used to be. In the old days, condensers were 2 sheets of aluminum foil with a piece of waxed paper between them, then rolled into a tight cylinder shape. One sheet is connected to the metal case, the other to the pigtail wire. The culprit is moisture in any form. Wax paper deteriorates allowing current to leak between the foil sheets. The wire connection  to the foil corrodes (copper plus aluminum plus water = corrosion).
Fast forward a decade or so. The insulating film is now mylar plastic and the whole assembly is encased in epoxy. Other than an actual manufacturing defect, pretty much bullet proof.
Points/condenser to electronic conversion.. I have done a few. They do give a faster rise time/hotter spark. Much more tolerant of fouled and worn spark plugs. Two basic types. One leaves the points in place, uses that to trigger the electronics. Downside, you still have the points rubbing block wear to contend with. The other uses a magnetic pickup in place of the points. Both types leave the mechanical timing advance mechanism in place.

[Al_Smith]

Well for what it's worth I've seen the coil pick ups on GM cars go bad too if that's any consulation .I can't remember when they changed  from points to coil pick ups,maybe late 60 s early 70s'

Most of them if any don't even use a distributor now it's all coil packs or individual coils on each plug .Then you have electronic engine control sytems and you just about need a special diagnostic test stand to figure out why no sparky .That or replace about a zillion sensors any one of them could cause problems .

Just the diagnostic trouble shooting guide on a Ford EEC V system is about 10 pages long .Nothing simple about it .