Logging contracts

Sawyerfortyish · May 06, 2004, 08:10:30 PM

Does anyone have or know where I can get a good blank contract for logging where you fill in the names and info? Is there a place online where you can download a copy? Or is this something that I need to have drawn up by an attorney?

Tom · May 06, 2004, 08:51:34 PM

Ron Scott has listed things in threads in the past. The general consesnus is that a land owner should hire the help of an educated and experienced Forester to handle the sale, harvest and present the contract. That's what forester do, isn't it, Ron?

jrdwyer · May 06, 2004, 08:55:34 PM

Most state forestry organizations have general logging contracts available for citizens to copy, modify, and/or possibly use. I say general, because when it comes to any timber sale contract, the details definitely count. Also, check with forest landowner associations as another source of sample contracts. Lastly, foresty textbooks and extension materials from forestry schools will often provide such a sample contracts.

My experience is that most attorneys are not familiar with timber sales and will just copy contracts from legal textbooks or from the sources I mention. While this may be acceptable, it does not deal with the specifics of each timber sale. For example, in one timber sale I conducted the attorneys for the estate had the final wording with a timber sale contract. They included a sentence requiring the repair of any damaged fences when the timber was cut. Guess what? There were no fences on the property. Although he signed it, the timber buyer wondered why this was on the contract. I just smiled and said I didn't write it.

Buzz-sawyer · May 06, 2004, 09:00:54 PM

How bout the one linked to this forum?
Click the toolbox, and scroll down for sample timber contract

SwampDonkey · May 07, 2004, 06:21:13 AM

Another sample contract can be found here:

http://www.klondikekonsulting.com/Website/silviculture.htm

click on the 'Sell Standing Timber' link

Sawyerfortyish · May 07, 2004, 10:44:51 AM

SwampDonkey I tryed that link but nothing comes up under sell standing timber.

Sawyerfortyish · May 07, 2004, 11:09:34 AM

Tom in order to get farm assesment and a break in property taxes each farm must have a forester draw up a woodland management plan. This farmer has already paid a forester to do that and was told he must have a timber harvest. But if he uses the forester to set it up he gets 15% of the bid price.

SwampDonkey · May 07, 2004, 01:07:02 PM

Sawyer40:

The link requires acrobat reader to be installed in order to view in your browser or to read the file from your storage device. Otherwise, works fine on this end when I access it from my web page. Do you have reader installed? To the left of the Compass on my page is a link to get Acrobat Reader.

cheers

Tom · May 07, 2004, 02:30:12 PM

I have a management plan for my property that was written up by a Forester also. I understand the payment to a Forester. Fifteen percent is arbitrary, I think. Some get less, some get more. Sometimes you can get the help of a County Forester if you are in a Doit-yourself situation.

I have been led to believe that a Forester is worth the money in that he will earn his salary by keeping you out of trouble, standing between you and the tax man as your voice, adding a legitimacy to the farming effort and making sure that you get top dollar for your trees, all the dollars for your trees and a woodlot that isn't left ruined by careless harvesting.

If you can't be assured of a job like that being done, then there is no use in using a Forester. I have been told that this is what a Forester is trained to do and that is what I would expect.

Perhaps you would benefit by "shopping" Foresters.

Texas Ranger · May 08, 2004, 08:40:08 AM

Shop foresters, and look for references. 15% may be worth it on some sales, not on others. We have routinely made up the value of my fee by the accuracy and increased value of a marked sale. Usually a much higher return than one that is not bid off.

Sawyerfortyish · May 08, 2004, 05:25:59 PM

No offence here I know some of you are foresters but. I want to cut this timber. If the farmers happy with what I bid and I pay up front I really don't want him to get other bids. I just don't need the competition. But thats his decision. He came to me and placed a 2500.00 lumber order and bought about 100yards of mulch and asked if I buy timber. Well I've never known a sawmill that didn't buy timber. So I jumped in the truck and went to look.

Tom · May 08, 2004, 06:35:24 PM

My misunderstanding was that you were the seller. No offense either, but, the farmer probably needs a Forester.

No offense taken here and none intended toward you.

Your being a Forum member and understanding about the problems that exist for land-owners who take the sale in their own hand; I favor the fact that you don't intend on taking advantage of the land'owner.

Having a Forester help with the contract may be cheaper and also more accurate than having a lawyer do it, according to the above posts. It may even be something that the county forester would or could be able to help you with.

Jeff · May 08, 2004, 06:45:49 PM

Remember, If you ever want to buy timber again the name of the game is not cheap or deal. Its fairness.

Sawyerfortyish · May 08, 2004, 09:36:05 PM

Jeff I have a good name in logging and milling. I have to live here and i'm a farmer to so most jobs that come in like this one happen because of the sawmill or word of mouth and the fact that I didn't leave a mess in a nieghbors woodlot. I take pride in my work and do as neat of a job as I can . One could make a lot of money off a couple jobs but it wouldn't take long and you wouldn't be in bussiness. In the last 23 yrs I've built a good bussiness being fair and reasonable and i'm at a point where things are getting easier. According to the forest service I'm the last full time circle mill in north Jersey. Some of my work is comming from the forest service. They have told me that they like the fact that most of what I cut is used instate. My competition for logging comes from PA or N.Y. most of the local loggers around here have switched over to land clearing and want to get paid to cut trees.

Sawyerfortyish · May 08, 2004, 09:42:03 PM

One more thing the reason I asked about contracts. I would rather like to deal on a handshake. But in the real world today you better spell it all out in plain english on paper so that evertone knows whats to be expected.

Jeff · May 08, 2004, 10:09:22 PM

Were proud of ya Sawyer40.

Texas Ranger · May 09, 2004, 08:40:20 AM

No insult intended, Sawyer40, good loggers and millers are hard to find, but foresters deal in these types of contracts. Lawyers lay down boiler plate that may or may not fit the circmstances.

Ron Scott · May 10, 2004, 06:29:05 PM

Ditto!! to what Friar Don has said. The professional forester deals with the silviculture of the species and the harvest area's ecosystem to best meet the site specific management objectives.

Who will administer the contract to insure that the contract terms are being met as intended.? This is where a forester really earns their pay. :P

Buzz-sawyer · May 10, 2004, 10:40:37 PM

I like all you guys responding to sawyer 40 and enjoy your company on this forum ....
I want to weigh in on this thread...
You may or may not know about me, I am a licensed timber buyer in my state and run a small circular sawmill as well.
I can identify with sawyer, in that he is not anxious to have his neighbors timber job be bid up(by inviting others to compete with him) , or have any number of qualified experts get involved in this deal...
I dont feel he has expressed any ill will or desire to take advantage of anyone.
I see no wrong in being competitive in bidding, it is the American way , and I have bid competitly in contract services and material purchases all my life...
go buy em, drag em , cut em , and sell em buddy!

Sawyerfortyish · May 11, 2004, 05:32:27 AM

Thanks Buzz I beginning to feel alone here ;)

dewwood · May 12, 2004, 07:12:25 AM

I intend no disrespect for anyone here, but the fact that the woodlot owner approached you indicates he trusts you. The fact that you are trying to do a good job as fairly as is possible and remain in business in the future shows you have your own as well as the woodlot owners well being in mind. It has been my experience that there will always be someone who will advise woodlot owners about how much they could or should have gotten for their timber, however these same people never write any checks for timber. Do your best and good luck!

james · May 29, 2004, 07:26:42 AM

another posability would be for u to check with a forester , see if he would cruse a few lots with you and then draw up a sample contract with a few optional clauses in it that could be modified to fit each indivudal sale :P

Oldtimer · August 07, 2004, 09:56:50 PM

I know...it's not "PC" to say this.....But Foresters can lie. They can cheat. They are human, like the logger that so often is viewed as a dimwitted greedy grunt.They get paid on what goes out the door, just like the logger and landowner. Honestly, if a man has cut timber for half his life, perhaps for a forester at times, wouldn't he be entirely able to buy, cut, and pay for timber with integrity and without a babysitter? My advice is to buy the wood yourself, negotiating the best price you can. This is how you make a living. Cutting a forester in serves you no real good. On the contrary, he may mark garbage and walk right past the gravy. Oldest trick in the foresters book. You cut the roads, install the landing, cut the rubbish.........they move a machine in a few years later and cut gravy easy-like.

Now don't get me wrong. I am sure most all foresters are fine people who would never use the logger or take a lot from him. It's just that human nature doesn't change. It's all about me, my pals, and screw everybody else - they are just competition. That is the reality I have seen.

Good luck.

SwampDonkey · August 08, 2004, 05:44:06 AM

Its pretty much the norm up here that folks assume the logger is the forester and sometimes this is right because there are alot of foresters and technicians here that run logging companies. And there are also alot of folk that never even finished high school and they also are loggers and have been very successful. I think one of the forester's roles is to act as the manager for some folks that may be elderly , live as absantee owners or don't have the where-with-all to do what they want with their land. There are associations and certification bodies that have a peer review of their members, not all do this though. Your alot safer choosing a forester or certified technician who is part of a creditable association. Even some loggers have creditable associations also. But, on the same hand I wouldn't like to see the day that a guy can't cut wood for a living just because he's not part of an association. Its up to the owner of the woodland to choose the right guy for the job and that could even be his neighbor Joe, who could be the most honest guy in town.

points to ponder