Restoring an old handsaw

[clww]

Great thread to read, Dodgy!

[tyb525]

Any way you could do a quick overview of what kind of files I would need to sharpen a saw? And could I joint a saw on a long, flat steel surface with sandpaper, or would a long file be better?

[Dodgy Loner]

Ty, I will dig up some of the references that I used to get me started and post them in this thread when I get a chance. You only need two files to sharpen a saw - a flat single cut file, about 8-10", and a triangular file. You will want to use a file for jointing. It's not hard at all to joint a saw with a file. Just use a straightedge or your eye to see where the teeth need taken down. Once you get it close, the file does the rest to make t straight.

The size of the triangular file that you need will depend on the size of the teeth. If you have multiple saws with different tooth counts (which you probably do), then you will need different files for each one. I believe I used a "slim taper" file on my 7 PPI saw. PPI (that is, points per inch) is measured by placing a rule at the tip of a tooth and counting the numbe of tips in the span of an inch. Getting good files is very important. Some stores sell junk. I use Nicholson files because I can get them ocally, but some folks order Grobets online, which are supposedly the creme-de-la-creme. I haven't tried them.

You will also need a saw vise (which you can make- I'll post pictures of mine) and a saw set, which you can get on eBay for anywhere from $5 to $50, depending on how particular you are. I got mine in a bid toolbox that I bought it an estate sale and it works fine. A Stanley 42x is the holy grail of saw sets. If I ever see one for a good price (less than $20) I'm going to get one.

More information to come. A lot of ink can be spilled about saw sharpening, but it's really not that hard once you get down to it.

[SwampDonkey]

You can get a new saw set for $25 at Lee Valley, they have one for fine set and course set. item # 60k02.02

[Al_Smith]

I've got a couple of saw sets ,I think Diston .I've never used them nor filed a hand saw ever .Exception being an old pruning saw and a two man cross cut years ago .

I've got a Millers Falls miter saw that probabley dates back to 1920 or earlier that needs some attention. It must have been used for years without the depth guides being set .All the set is out of it and the teeth are not sharp .Other than that the the miter assembley is nearly perfect .

A guy gets kind of used to tilting arbor table saws ,radial arm saws and compound miter saws and forgets about some of the fine old hand tools that built the great old homes of the Victorian age .

[Dan_Shade]

Frank Klaus has a video on hand tools.  he took a new saw, put it between two boards, and hammered the set out of the blade, then he took a screwdriver and put the set in the saw by twisting the handle on every other tooth.  He then sharpened the saw. 

His saw definately cut better than any of mine in his video!

So long story short, he used a flat bladed screwdriver to set the teeth

[Jasperfield]

Have you noticed that the handles on many old handsaws are too small for comfortable use?

[tyb525]

People had smaller hands then?? I haven't heard that, but it would make sense.

[Dodgy Loner]

Have you noticed that the handles on many old handsaws are too small for comfortable use?

You're holding the saw wrong. You're trying to put four fingers through a grip that was designed for three fingers. The proper grip is to extend the index finger straight - pointed towards the end of the saw - and put the other three fingers through the grip. Once you get used to this grip, you'll find it difficult to saw any other way.

[Dodgy Loner]

Frank Klaus has a video on hand tools.  he took a new saw, put it between two boards, and hammered the set out of the blade, then he took a screwdriver and put the set in the saw by twisting the handle on every other tooth.  He then sharpened the saw. 

His saw definately cut better than any of mine in his video!

So long story short, he used a flat bladed screwdriver to set the teeth

That's cool. Klaus is clearly a virtuoso craftsman, but I wouldn't recommend that anybody set their saws with a screwdriver. The finest sawmakers actually use hammers to set them, but again, that requires more skill than most of us need. A sawset is cheap and produces repeatable results.

[Dodgy Loner]

Here is a great reference for hand saws. There is an excellent tutorial on sharpening as well as a wealth of other information. If you have an old Disston saw and would like to know more about it, then this would be a great place to look. All sorts of information about telling the age of your saw, its model, and whether or not it's a good user.

Below is a picture of my saw vise - it's just seven pieces of white oak, screwed together. I use two holdfasts to clamp it to my workbench. The handscrews are what I'm currently using to clamp the jaws together, but I'll be replacing them with bolts and wingnuts. It's 28" long, so I can file a full-size saw without moving it. Most vintage saw vises are only 12-16" long.



And this is the saw set I've been using. It reads "OVB - Our Very Best" on top. I'm not sure who the manufacturer is, but it works pretty well.

[tyb525]

I found 6 old saws looking around the barn. One is a 26" Disston from 1896-1917 according to the medallion, the other is a 26" from sometime after 1917 (haven't removed the rust to see if the etch is visible yet). The rest were a couple old "Warenteed Superior" saws, 26" and 24". And a couple no names, 26" and 18".

This is the oldest Disston (no split sawnuts, 7PPI):




The blade is pretty straight, and the rust looks like mostly surface rust, so I might make a new handle and restore it in the future.

[Dodgy Loner]

That's a D8, Ty. It's a very good saw and looks like it will clean up nicely. The handle is actually salvageable. If you want, you can send the handle to me, and I'll fix it back up and send it back- no charge. Those D8 handles are very tough to replicate due to the shape of the slot, so it's best to save the old handles whenever possible.

[isawlogs]

 Thanks Justin for the links, good reading and much info about the old saws.  :P

[purple otter]

Hey Dodgy,nice job restoring that old saw. Cool that you were able to put it back into service and identify it! Collecting and restoring old woodworking tools can be addicting,plus its fun to use a tool that is over 100 years old! Every time I find a saw at the flea market for a buck or two ,my wife says "you really need another saw?"  :D I have been able to bless some of my friends who are into woodworking with some restored saws and chisels .You gotta love those old tools! thanks for sharing.

[purple otter]

Dodgy,another website with great info on handsaws is www.wkfinetools.com .They have some great  articles on sharpening  and restoration. You might already know about it, but I just wanted to pass it along.

[Dodgy Loner]

That's a great website, otter. I've been there before but not in a while.

[Al_Smith]

Out of curiosity since this thread arose I got down the old Millers Falls /Disston miter saw .

It's a Langdon style size 2 1/2 whatever that means .Last patent 1909 .Cast steel .

I straight edged it and the good news is it's dead on straight .Just needs some set work and a little file work to bring it back so it doesn't hang in the cut .

Of course it has the angles on a turn thing for the saw but another thing I found I don't fully understand .It has holes/windows  in both fences with large turn screws and slides that go through the windows .I assume it's to set some odd ball angle the normal compound is not notched for ? I'm a power tool man I really know little of nothing about this old stuff .

[Dodgy Loner]

I don't have much experience with miter boxes, but I did find a link with some information about you miter box here.

From what I understand, the Langdons are supposed to be good miter boxes! I want to get one to play around with some day.

[Dodgy Loner]

I worked on another saw this weekend. This one was not in nearly as bad of shape as the last, but it still needed quite a bit of work. It's a 26" Disston D8, 8 PPI crosscut saw that dates to 1896-1917. I picked it up at an estate sale last year for 50 cents. Though the handle was in rough shape and the blade was coated in rust, there didn't appear to be any pitting, the blade was arrow-straight, and thankfully the teeth (unlike the last saw) were very well-shaped, with a lightly breasted toothline. The D8 is in front, with a 28" Disston No. 7 behind it.



The sawplate cleaned up without any surprises. It's still darkly stained from the rust, but there was no pitting. I gave the top horn an apple patch and attempted to stain it to match the rest of the handle with limited success. It looks very nice from the right side, but there was a light streak on the left side that wouldn't accept much stain. It sticks out like a sore thumb, but whadaya gonna do? It'll still work fine.







I filed the saw to the original specifications – 25° of fleam and 15° of rake. For those that are interested, the order of the saw filing operations were:

1)   Joint the teeth a flat file held in a block of wood to keep it at 90°
2)   File every other tooth so the 'flat' from jointing is about halfway gone. I use a file guide set to the proper specifications (I just got this one last Friday, and it worked magnificently. Previously, I used homemade wooden guide blocks)
3)   Reset the guide for the opposite teeth, and file the teeth until the flats disappear
4)   Lightly stone the teeth on the side to remove the bur from filing
5)   Set the all of the teeth with a sawset
6)   Make one light jointing pass to make a tiny flat on each tooth
7)   File the teeth as before *just* removing the flat on the final pass

Obviously there are a lot of subtleties to saw filing beyond that, but that's a rough guide of my process. Some folks do things differently, but that is working well for me. This saw bites aggressively into the wood and cuts so smoothly, it's an absolute pleasure to use! I've never had a saw that cuts so well.

[SwampDonkey]

Your becoming a regular saw doctor Dodgy. ;D

[Slab Slicer]

Dodgy, have you ever tried any other way of removing rust from the saw plate? I've cleaned alot of cast iron ( I know, not the same metal) using electrolysis. There is also 50/50 mix of vinegar, and water that will do a good job. Just wondering if there is a preferred method, or are there many acceptable methods.

I really enjoy restoring certain pieces, and just want to make sure I do it right.

[Dodgy Loner]

Slab Slicer - you're right, there are a lot of ways to remove rust, and no method is right for all situations. For handsaws, I prefer to sand the rust off, because rust inevitably leaves a rough, pitted surface. Even if it you can't see it, you can feel it. You want your sawplate to be as smooth as possible to minimize the friction created, so the sanding kills two birds with one stone - it removes the rust and it polishes the plate.

You could definitely use the vinegar or electrolysis to remove the red rust as well as the dark oxidation that, and then polish with sandpaper, and you would probably end up with a shinier sawplate. I doubt you would get any additional performance, though. Maybe I'll give it a try some day. You would want to be careful not to leave it in the vinegar too long, though, because the acid will attack the iron itself in addition to the iron oxide, and you could end up with even more pitting than you started with.

I use vinegar all the time for cleaning up planes, chisels, etc. I never have used electrolysis, but it certainly seems like a great method for some cases!

[purple otter]

Nice job again putting that saw back into service. They do cut nicely when they have a fresh resharp!

[Dodgy Loner]

Well, you fellas are probably sick of my old handsaw posts by now, but it occurred to me that I've mostly shown before/after pictures of some of the restoration work I have done. I worked on another saw last week and took some pictures as I went, so hopefully if anyone out these is interested in bringing their own saws back to life, this post will give you a little play-by-play.

The saw that I started out with is a Disston No. 7 rip saw from 1896-1917. It's 28" long with 6 TPI. For $5, I couldn't pass it up, because my other 28" rip saw is 4.5 PPI and this one will make a nice companion. It is badly rusted all over, and the handle is in rough shape. It will take some work revive it, but it will be worth it – the plate is arrow-straight.



The handle is the roughest I have worked on so far. The upper horn is missing and the whole lower part of the handle is cracked in two. The tape is all that is holding it together.



I owe the previous owner a debt of gratitude for taping the broken piece on. Usually breaks in this part are glued on (poorly) or nailed on. Both of these are hard to fix. Since this break is clean, all I need to do is carefully glue it back on with a little epoxy colored with wood dust.



I'll clean up the squeeze-out after it hardens a bit, to keep from smearing it.



Once the bottom part has cured a bit, I turn my attention to the upper horn. I start by flattening the spot where the break occurred with a wide chisel. Then I take a new piece of beech and match the grain as best I can, and epoxy it in place. Since I will be working this patch pretty well with a knife and rasps, I let it cure overnight.



With the epoxy cured, I plane and cut down the oversized beech patch, then mark out the shape of the new horn using a similar handle as my pattern. I happened to have an identical No. 7 28" rip saw handle lying around that I used as my pattern.



I cut out the shape on the bandsaw and begin shaping it with a chip knife.



Once I get it close, I use rasps, files, and a thin scraper to get the shape just right. You can do all the work with rasps and files, but I prefer using the knife to a rasp.



Next, I smooth out the whole handle with sandpaper. I think I started around 120 and worked my way up to 180. The grits you use will depend on what shape the handle is in.



To even out the color between the old beech and the new, I stain the whole thing with walnut stain (for apple handles, I use mahogany). You can see that the patch is still a bit lighter than the old wood, so after it dried, I went back and carefully sanded just the patch with 150 grit, so it would accept more stain. Then I stained just the patch. This helped even out the color considerably.



I finished off with a couple coats of lacquer after letting the stain dry for a couple of days. And this is what she looks like:



It looks old, but not abused. Just the way I like it!