Is the chain cutting good???

[qatanlison]

I might be the one leaving the tip - and I think it's quite obvious. If you file/sharpen a knife, axe or any edge-tool for that matter you ALWAYS grind into the edge never away from it. The reason is to get rid of the "feather-edge" and stop it from making its way back into the edge and dulling it.Why use a different method for the edges on a saw chain?
When square filing it's also much more easy to line those angles up when filing from the out-side. I think the main reson for the recommendations is "It's the way it's always been done, why bother changing it?" Filing with a round-file has been done in the same matter for some 60 years - Does that make it the best way? A 60 year old invention in any other field is considered antique - why not so in saw chains?

[logbutcher]

 :P    This thread is almost as good as: "...if you were a tree, which one would you be ? " :-[ :-[
In one corner, the twins telling off the unwashed about how little they know. : In the other most of the others sharing their real world experience and helping. It's all part of an open forum.  8)
Lao Tzu: "democracy is messy"
Here goes: the PFERD Sharpforce 'system' -also made for Husky under another name I think-- does both the tooth and raker at the same time. Neat rig. So that the raker is always the correct depth from the top of the tooth. After sharpening equally on both sides, the rakers may have to be just rounded off for smooth cutting. It comes in sizes for most chains except harvester 404's.
Yes, when you got to force the saw, you know the chain needs work. If the saw "pops" out of a bore its dull or not at wide open throttle. Or, no shavings and mostly dust, then sharpen. Just experience in this corner. :
I've tried all the non-motor sharpening rigs: Granberg clamp-on, rollers, but this Pferd is the best so far for out in the woods with a stump vise---another cool tool.
Sharpening done against the sun to check reflection of light on the tooth edge, should be none.
The School of Expereince is open for business. When I stop asking and checking and learning, it's time to leave. JMHO

[jokers]

:P    This thread is almost as good as: "...if you were a tree, which one would you be ? " :-[ :-[
In one corner, the twins telling off the unwashed about how little they know. : In the other most of the others sharing their real world experience and helping...... Just experience in this corner. :......

The School of Expereince is open for business. When I stop asking and checking and learning, it's time to leave. JMHO

Well logbutcher, since I am one of the evil twins, I can only assume that you are referring to Brian and myself and then implying that neither of us knows anything or offers anything of value. Is that your point?

Then you also put forth the notion that you have vast experience and knowledge, yet you have asked several questions on this very forum that would refute that notion.

If I have read your statements correctly logbutcher, you are a prime example of the person who makes people like Brian and myself reticent to offer any insight or knowledge because there is always some nimrod who ingratiatingly expresses mock humility with a statement such as "When I stop asking checking and learning, it`s time to leave." but then subtly suggests that he already knows it all because his "School of Experience" is open for business, then proceeds to mock any insight that we may have offered.

BTW, did you happen to see any untruth in my sole post regarding this topic. Do You see curlies when you are crosscutting wood fiber? If so, are you sure you`ve ever crosscut wood fiber?

You may as well put me on ignore if this forum offers that option logbutcher, as I won`t be offering you any further assistance. Next time you have a problem, just go back to school.

FWIW, the Pferd tool is nothing but a crutch and gimmick for those who are too uncoordinated or un-motivated to learn to file correctly. The design of the Pferd tool has the inherent weakness of always making an operator use what they consider to be an appropriate depth gauge clearance which is also coincidentally altered from their own perception of appropriate if you put the required 10° downangle on chisel chain. Depth limiting file guides also limit an operators ability to adjust hook angle in the sideplate for various cutting conditions, but of course with your vast experience you already know these things.

Russ

[9shooter]

Again, I suspect that stihl suggests fileing away from the edge because if you file into the edge you run a greater risk, should you slip, of cutting yourself on the edge of the chain tooth. However, If you want a real sharp chain, the burr that is rolled off the edge by filing 'from the backside' needs to be removed. When sharpening any cutting edge like say, a saftey razor, you get the strop out to remove the burr that is left during the metal removing stage of sharpening. Another observation I,ve made is that it is easier to file chain filing from the back to the front of the edge because it is eaiser to brace the saw and you have the weight of the saw to resisting the file strokes. It is a bit harder to file toward the saw engine, and I suspect that human nature causes many to take the easy route. Doesn't  make it the best way though. Another mistake people make is draging the file on the tooth on the back stroke. This serves to dull the file faster. I always drag the file lightly on the return stroke, and only bear down on the forward motion.
  I would hate to pay for the legal team that saw manufacturers probably have to keep on retainer. I know from my own job in the automobile engineering field that many undesireable things are done to limit lawsuits. It's just a reality of our sue happy population. Presision grinding and polishing would produce the sharpest possible chain, but who has the time for that? Production is the name of the game when it comes to profits. We often had 2 saws per sawyer when working in the woods, espesially when bucking logs on the landing. I always sharpened chains between bites on lunch break.
     Another thing I've learned in my own field is that vendors want to sell stuff.  ??? We are often at odds with them because their tooling isn't often designed to last a long time. I am currently working to try to force them to give me a much more reliable cutter to use. I have been suggesting different designs for 3 years now and they always manage to mess it up. Most of their profits are generated from selling cutters. Many other plants are 'happy' with their designs. If the only pig you have is blind in one eye and has 3 legs, why it's the best pig you have!!! There is nothing new with much of sharpening theory and practice. It just isn't applied all the time.
  Got to throw in a final comment. Back in the mid-80's my 2 logging company owning brother-in-laws were running stihl chainsaws exclusivly. Well, they helped put my wife through college, so as a thankyou gesture, we bought them a Husqvarna 266 pro. With that entry level pro saw they averaged 8-10 more trees per day the first week. They parked the Stihls in the barn and went out and bought Huskies for all of their crews. At the time Huskies were a much faster cutting saw, and paid for themselves in short order. They didn't last as long as the Stihls but sure did boost prodution. I have nothing against Stihl, I have a little 029 myself currently, and it's a real reliable saw. I have no idea how they stack up to each other today.

[jokers]

You guys who say that a chain is sharper when filed from the outside in are probably right. I can easily see the correlation with filing other cutting edges and the subsequent formation of the wire edge or "burr", but I think the significance is being overstated in the case of working chain. One fly in the ointment with this belief is the way that chrome is removed from the working corner by the file. I`m speculating but suspect that a corner viewed under a microscope from a chain that was filed inward might actually show some small amount of rounding over because the file is not hard enough to cleanly abrade it. Has anyone ever looked at this?

Grinding inward is an absolute must because you will have a burr to some extent, but grinding is a compromise from ideal anyway.

Russ

[logbutcher]

The twins don't eat no humble pie.......... : :
Guess we're all unworthy dolts, knowing nothing, never asking questions about your  ;D area of expert expertise.
And no, if you got to blend your subjective information w ridicule and dissing, then hold it. And that's being polite. ;) ;)
Repeat after me: "I'm unworthy", "I'm unworthy".
 It's not worth it in an open forum. No matter how much you "know".
Why is it that your posts in all the forums you guys troll always has that dissing condescending edge. Stuff it ...please. Enough flame, OK !
The School of Experience is always open to new info. Not correct. Not wrong. Learn......

[Kevin]

I have felt with a finger nail for a burr but have not used magnification.
Filing inward might work with a fixed mechanical means but I think it is difficult to control by hand filing.

[jokers]

Kevin, Jeff, and everyone else. I want to apologize for degrading this thread with my reply to logbutcher. I have taken my latest reply to him/her off forum and will continue to do so to the best of my ability.

logbutcher, check your PMs

Russ

[Jeff]

Apology accepted Russ. You have been a part of the Forestry forum a long time and I know you try to keep the tone where Kevin and I DEMAND it to be. There will be no personal attacks allowed on this forum. At All. Ever. For any reason.

Log Butcher, and anyone else that are not sure of how this forum operates, I expect that you will respect that in the future. There are plenty of other places where you can kick up your heals if you wish. You are welcome here but as I have said before, the forum is an extension of my house. Same rules apply. If a guest in my house were to get out of line, they would be asked to cool it. If they didnt, they would be "removed."

Maybe spend some time on other parts of this forum and learn how the true members treat each other. We dont flame each other, and if we feel that someone is wrong, we dont attack them, we try to explain why we are right. Its possible for both to be right. We treat each other as friends. Think about this as you post on this forum...

A gentle tongue [with its healing power] is a tree of life, but willful contrariness in it breaks down the spirit.
Proverbs 15:4

[Kevin]

This isn't directed at anyone in particular but we seem to forget why we come to this place at times.
I enjoy the conversation and pop in here to relax after a tiring day climbing trees and poles.
This isn't life support on the space shuttle we're discussing it's just chain saws.
I don't mind be corrected when I make a mistake and I appreciate knowing what's right but some people feel the urge to pounce on others in a demeaning way which only detracts from why we are here in the first place.
Lets talk saws and keep this place for relaxing and learning.
Thanks.

[etat]

 Not being an expert I hope yall will  forgive me for jumping in and giving my verson of an answer.   I'm pretty sure the original question has already been answered but this might give the original poster some insight from a rank amature.


 If you do file 'into the chain' or 'out from the chain' you need to be rock steady and straight and consistent with the file.  And as said, don't drag it back. Keep the file clean too. When I learned to file we didn't have a Gage, the guy that taught me just seemed to know. And I was taught to file 'into the chain' .  NOT saying that's the best way, I really don't know.  It was a long time before I even knew you could get a guide for a file. ???  I guess I got pretty fair at it, though probably far from expert.  I used to like to touch up the chain every tank of gas.  Doesn't take a lot of time, and keeps the chain sharp. I'd not work as hard, get to stop  occasionally, (while filing), and cut more wood than someone who'd just keep cutting.  At this time you also get a chance to catch your wind and get you something to drink if you're thirsty.  NOT alcohol. If I ever hit something that actually damaged the teeth I'd still sharpen, but when I'd get a chance I'd usually take the chain  and get it ground.  When you do this it hardens the teeth and makes it much harder to file.  Keeping a sharp chain will make your saw last longer, and make it a lot easier on you.  

Parallels would be if you can relate would be trying to cut a piece of steel with a rusty or dull hacksaw, trying to cut a board with a rusty or dull handsaw, or a using a skillsaw with a blade that is wore out, and has cut into nails, or even trying to cut something with a dull knife.  Soon as you do it a time or two you'll just seem to know.  Once you get used to having a sharp blade and keeping it sharp, you absolutely will learn to hate working with a dull blade or chain.

I haven't run a chainsaw much in over 10 years, but I 'think' everything is still sorta the same.