Over run in hardwoods

Gilman · January 21, 2005, 02:33:52 PM

I'm looking into sawing a large volume of alder for a broker and am running the numbers to see if it will be profitable. I have the price for the logs and finished lumber, but don't know how much over run I should expect.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

David

Tom · January 21, 2005, 02:47:36 PM

I don't understand the need to figure over-run. It's kinda like living on over-time or Tips. I'm not questioning everyone's need to know, it's just that I don't understand it. Seems to me that a quote for lumber from the logs should be sufficient and anymore that could be gotten would be gravy. Somebody please explain it to me.

beenthere · January 21, 2005, 02:54:12 PM

Tom
Some want to count on getting the gravy too. But you are right, in my opinion.
There should be profit in getting the yield scaled from the logs as well. But years of counting on overrun, have made it part of the package, I think.
The overrun will be dependent on the skill of the operator.
Some will get more, some less, but all should get overrun, I would think.

beerguy · January 21, 2005, 03:39:23 PM

Gilman,
I am just curious, what dimension do you cut your alder into? My brother and I saw it up for our own use, and I just cut it into 8/4 and whatever width that I get, usually 8 inches or so. We have a few trees that are huge for an alder that I could probably square up a 16" cant, but we have yet to drop them. I have seen a truck heading north on I-5 with a load of alder that looked to be 3 by 8's or so. What dimension do you usually saw up?

Frank_Pender · January 21, 2005, 04:16:25 PM

Beerguy, that is part of the key to determining what you overrun might calculate to be in the end. Woooooops :'(

Gilman, you will have to try and determin your overrun to the closest number by running a couple three logs or more.

For the most part on Douglas Fir dimensional 2 x material I am running around 25 to 28% on overrun. With the Alder you will have the likelyhood of uneven log configuration and all and the main issue of the dimension. If you ar planning on sawing 5/4 or less, you will drop in your % of overrun. With 5/4 I always charge 20 to 25% more for sawing as it costs just and much in time, gas and whatever to produce the boards. You are also making much more sawdust to handle and dispose of in the process of sawing. Alder sawdust produces high amounts of nitrogin, so a plant growing operation may be interested. Another source of marketing your Alder may be to someone who is growing mushrooms. Shatakie growers like Alder and as well as folks who may be growing Oyster mushrooms. These type of growers will put the dust in a plastic bag and place small holes in the bag and then sterialize the block produced and then inject the mushroom spawn into the block.

Larry · January 21, 2005, 05:00:53 PM

David,
Seems like a pretty fair question to me. I would venture an answer but I don't know what an alder is and also don't know what kinda scale you guys use.

Us'uns hillbillies run the Doyle scale and would be more than happy to give the overrun in hardwoods in tenths ifen ya really wanted it.

Jeff · January 21, 2005, 05:20:15 PM

QuoteBeergut,

Now there is a typo! :D

HORSELOGGER · January 21, 2005, 06:01:29 PM

:D :D Beergut! ;D ;D ;D :D :D

Bibbyman · January 21, 2005, 07:20:53 PM

Hi David,

I've got 0.0 experience with alder and wouldn't know the tree or the lumber if I was standing on a stack of alder lumber in a forest of it.

We do saw a lot of hardwood – mostly walnut and red oak. I generally figure about a 25% overrun over Doyle scale. I've never really figure it scientifically. Mary has scaled the logs and counted the lumber and had come up with 20-40% overrun – depending on the mix of log quality and size.

The walnut broker we're sawing for once told me he kept track of the first could of trailer truck loads of logs we sawed for him into lumber and said our overrun was 100%. I find that hard to believe but that's the only way I can see he's making money on the deal. BUT, he's buying and scaling the logs. For sure he's using the Doyle scale that really don't do justice to small logs. He could also be deducting pretty heavy for sweep and such. Could be he's rounding down lengths to nearest even foot lengths – even though grade lumber is sawn in foot increments.

If your logs are bigger and scaled on the International scale, then I'd think your overrun would be less than I'm getting from small logs scaled on the Doyle scale. (Once you get up to 16" or so, Doyle and International scales are about the same.)

beerguy · January 21, 2005, 07:38:15 PM

Beergut? How'd ya know?? ??? ;D

Frank_Pender · January 21, 2005, 07:44:30 PM

OOOOOPs, :'( I have a problems sometimes with some of my fingers as they have acquired a problems of being able to reach the correct keys. I did figure out how to go back and make a correction. Does that count for anything? ??? :-[ :-[

Paul_H · January 21, 2005, 07:51:57 PM

I wish you didn't fix it Frank,that was classic :D My face hurt from grinning.

Gilman · January 21, 2005, 11:27:40 PM

Tom,
I'd be buying the logs on a Scribner (I think) scale, milling into lumber and then selling the lumber to the broker. If I can get an extra 20% yeild over what the logs are scaled at, then it would probably be worth my while. If I'd expect to get 0% over run then it wouldn't be worth the investment.

Beenthere,
I'll let you know if it is the operator's fault or the machine if I don't get enough over run. I'm pretty sure it's going to be the machine's fault and NOT the operator's. ;D

Fank,
Good point on running a few logs and keeping track of scaled input verses yeild. A few alders shouldn't be hard to come by.

Larry,
Alder is just like that black walnut you saw up so much, it just doesn't have the brown color, workability or customer appeal, unless you are a pulp mill... They'll take it by the truck load.

Jeff,
Thanks for saving the quote, by time I got there the "typo" was corrected back to beerguy. I would have missed out on all the fun ;D

Paul,
I agree, change it back to "Beergut."

Bibbyman,
Thanks on the 16" diameter input. It's a good point to consider. I'll rough out the numbers at 20% and then dream about that 100%.

Beergut,
Thanks for your honesty :D
It will be 4/4 and 5/4 in 8' and 10' lengths.

Horselogger,
Good work on the emoticons.

Thanks all ;)

Frank_Pender · January 22, 2005, 03:41:16 AM

Another point if forgot to question you about was the long length at which they will be comeing to you. Scribner is based of course on the smallend diameter. If these logs are long enough for you the bucke into shorter lengths for sawing you will gain some onthe Scribner scale. If they are all ready and cut to the lengths from which you are going to saw the lumber then that will hinder your overrun scale. :'(

What will the log lengths be we you get them delivered?

WH_Conley · January 22, 2005, 05:10:31 AM

Length won't matter IF you are willing to end trim the bark on short boards, your taper can come off first, shorter board instead of heavy slab, I do this most of the time because customer wants longer stuff such as beams or cabin logs. You get a pile of them laying there they sure do look nasty until end trimed.
My choice would be to cut them shorter as Frank said, but not necessary, whole lot easier to handle, that is until they get too short.

dewwood · January 22, 2005, 05:58:14 AM

I agree with Tom, figure the job on the log footage. If the job is profitable at that level then there is no doubt money to be made on the job. Living on the overrun will eventually come back to haunt you, there are always the unforeseen and unplanned for events that eat into your profit margin. If you are already close to breakeven then your profit becomes a negative and then the work becomes much less enjoyable. Give yourself enough room to be able to furnish an end product consistently now and in the future at a price you can live with. There is nothing wrong with a reasonable profit it is what keeps the wheels turning.

Steve · January 22, 2005, 07:44:49 AM

Years ago on the Olympic penninsula of Washington state I was in the Cedar business. Bought logs and sold lumber. The over run was where all the profit was.
Logs at the time were costing about $400 per MBF. Lumber was selling for about the same.
Half the over run came from simply bucking the 32 to 40' logs. We also got a little over from milling.
When you scale a 40' cedar with a 10" top, then buck that same log into 3 sawlogs and scale again you will see atleast a 50% increase in scale as the diameter increases greatly.
We'd take the first cut from the butt and cut out clears. Then the rest of the log was cut for decking and lapsiding.
People not familiar with this couldn't understand how one could make money bucying logs for the same price as the jumber was worth.

Same with buying logs as the price is very different depending on length.

Steve

Frank_Pender · January 22, 2005, 08:02:13 AM

That is the key, Steve. This is where the big boys out here get the little tree farmers as well as Federal and State timber sales. The states and the feds have been wising up. I am sure that John (Tillaway)can straighten me out on that issue.

Gilman · January 22, 2005, 08:27:34 AM

The logs would probably be around 28' with shorter logs stacked in the center of the load. Finished product is at 8 and 10'.

D._Frederick · January 22, 2005, 11:13:15 AM

Gilman,

Since you are talking about volume sawing and have a market (broker) for the lumber. Buy a truck load of logs (about 5000 bdft) and saw them. It will take you a couple of days to saw, but you will have a big enough volume (sample size) to get a true picture of overall production rate , lumber quality and yield. If you saw for a couple days, you should be toward the bottom of the learning curve. I think that your sawing rate is as important as any scale overages for making per day profit.

Gilman · January 24, 2005, 07:53:04 AM

I think I'll try something similar Frank. I have a logger friend that I could probably get a load from either at a minimal cost, or cut it on shares. If I cut it on shares, I'm just out fuel and my time. I'd be able to get rid of the lumber eventually too.