Central Boiler 750 - not a happy customer - serious issues with cleaning

[Bob Lentz]

I owned a CB eClassic 2400 for 3 years - over that period of time, the interior welds on the firebox started to give way.  I opted to "upgrade" to a 750.  1st year, no issues.  1/2 way through 2nd year, stove started to have issues getting to temp, burning a ton of wood.  I paid my dealer to come out and do a thorough cleaning - he had to climb inside the unit to get to the heat exchangers.  Put it back together and 2 months later, same issues.  I was told CB new cleaning method of chains was best system - not so for me - they get coated in creosote and are un-movable.  Now, i have to take apart the interior firebox and un-bolt the back plates to gain access to the chains/heat exchanger.  And, i will need to climb inside the stove in order to reach these items. MAJOR design flaw as they dumped the chains and re-designed access to the heat exchanger from the outside.   Thinking about dumping this junk and buying a crown royal (good reviews from what i see)

Thoughts?

[E Yoder]

I wonder if there's a clog in the incoming air channels. Creosote is usually a sign of choked airflow.

[doctorb]

I agree.  There's something not right leading to that much buildup.  Usually an air flow problem.  Think of it this way, if it was just a design flaw, why did you have such a long honeymoon during year #1?  No, the story sounds like it's something logged somewhere.  Of course, I don't know your dealer, but I would talk to someone who Owns and operates a 750.  Your dealer may not.  Have you talked to someone at CB?

[E Yoder]

When the dealer came to do the cleanout did he unbolt the channels down each side in the firebox? I wonder if creosote has been running down the firebox walls and puddled behind the air holes. ? This is just my ideas from seeing the Edge units at a few shows.

[E Yoder]

Any updates on your situation?

[boilerman101]

There should never be anything but a small amouint of dry fly ash accumulating in the rear exchangers if you are achieving 1,000+ reaction chamber temps. If you are plugging up with wet creosote you have an air flow issue. Your first clue is when you no longer get 1,000+ reaction chamber temps. Find the issue and clear before you plug up those rear exchangers. I've looked at the Edge units and like what I see. Front and side air channel panels all removable. Check primary elbow too. From what I understand the chains should be pumped up and down a couple times a week anyway, just like the handle apperatus needs to be shaken daily on other gassers. Correct coal bed depth and air flow must be maintained on all gasser brands. Nature of the beast and not that hard to do. My 2010 E-classic 2400 with no removable panels still has had no issues because I understand it and keep it where it needs to be. I read many of your previous posts and it looks like you have had a lot of issues getting a handle on this. From what I've seen of the Edge, it looks like it should be even easier.

[buckgrunt]

That does not sound like fun.   What kind of wood are you burning ?   I know that your wood should be dry.  These gassers need dry wood.  If not, they will not function properly.  

[Logging logginglogging]

So far with my 750, I have only had light dry ash in the bottom for the most part and the chains are staying free. I have only had it one heating season, and have only burned dry hardwood.

[bcdude]

Hi this is my second year for the CB edge 750 , last year had problems with it going out , figured was not enough demand ( 5000 sq ft house ) this year I added 4 small cabins & couple hot tubs and 1 hot water tank . Ok this year the heat exchanger plugged up ..probably from last year as mentioned not enough demand ..smouldering fire etc.....anyway it is truly a miserable job to clean , having to crawl inside the firebox and chisel out between all the tubes . 2 days later and fired it back up worked good for 2 months , now it's plugged again ( oh the wood is below 22 percent ) called CB ..as there is no way to reach them by email ...guy should not be at the customerservice end (Dennis) any way in the short conversation he pointed to wards the primary elbow as a possible issue . So checked that It does have a considerable amount of oily creasote ..maybe 30 percent plugged ? Waiting for the unit to cool down , also not the best time as we are in full blown winter here in BC . I mentioned to him the difficulty in cleaning heat exchanger etc..and I repeated what the dealer said about them updating the access to the heat exchanger on the new 750 with a cleanout  door . He was defensive about my suggestion there was previous problems with this unit ..so why add the door ? Anyway I'm hoping this is the answer (primary elbow ) littler bit depressed after reading all the posts here about CB and another boiler blog  I found. Looks like they don't care , wish I had researched this befor buying . Basic boiler is $14K and at least that again with all the hardware and labour . The unit itself is probably ok but they needto do more R&D befor selling them ..as in a simple method to clean heat exchanger ..like the updated models with access doors . The question is ..are then any other things a should do or look for while it's down ? Thanks for reading . Al

[bcdude]

Re: Bob Lentz ....did u resolve the creasote buildup issue .? I have the 750 as well . With the same problem . It's interesting they installed a access door on the new ones , obviously to address the cleaning problem 

[boilerman101]

bcdude - I've got the new Edge 750HD because I liked the changes and easy access panels, but so far after 12 weeks I have not needed them to do any access cleaning. I'm finding nothing but a little light dust in the rear exhangers behind the rear access and has not even needed brushing out yet. What kind of reaction chamber temps are you getting during the burn cycles? I'm getting 1,000+ degree temps during each cycle and not getting the build up that it sounds like you are. Did you put the XP on your Edge so you can track its performance chart and post it online? Maybe we could compare it with the charts I've posted. If burning good there should be nothing but the same light ash that accumulates in the reaction chamber finding its way up the exchangers that I can see. I did figure out that dry wood and coal bed below the firebox air holes are very important for good burn temps early on.

[bcdude]

Thanks boilerman . Yesterday I removed the primary elbow and cleaned it as well as the heat exchanger..so easy when you say it quick ...I can not overemphasize how difficult it is to clean the heat exchanger, I get a knot in my stomach just thinking about it . U could compare it to chipping slagg off of a electric weld only it's around tubes  that's set inside a firebox with very little access to chip away at it not to mention cramped up for 2 days in there and the ash dust u are breathing that no mask can keep out . Un believable . Had to get that off my chest . I'm motivated to sort this out . Anyway fired it up and appears to be burning more efficiently..that's great ..except how did it get that way ? Why so much creasote? My wood is below 20 percent moisture. Always . Not really sure how to post my temps re:Xp and all that . So when urz fires up it always atains 1000 plus temp ? I will have to baby sit this thing more I guess . Because there is no access to view the heat exchanger I have no way of knowing it's getting congested un till it no longer heats the water . This is what really EDITED BY ADMIN me off about CB .."u bought it u own it " ..it's obvious they added the access panels because of negative feedback . They could not be more unsympathetic . For me it's important that I get a hold of this ..but more importantly there has got to be a easier way to clean it ? Maybe a tiger torch ? Or ? Anybody have any thots on this ?

[boilerman101]

bcdude - Yes, I pretty much get over 1,000 degrees during most cycles until it gets lower on wood. If you haven't been getting those temps, maybe that is why you are getting so much creosote. I also run my furnace with a 190 degree set point as it seems to reduce creosote. I watched some videos on line showing them pumping the chains up and down and owners said to do it every week with your model. That makes sense to me if you are struggling with creosote. Looks like that would be easier than taking that back panel off from inside the firebox. I like your idea of the tiger torch as well. My HD has the wifi XP built right into the controller but I think it is a add on with your previous model. The charts it produces quickly shows me if my furnace is burning well or not. If chart starts looking like not doing so good maybe you could find and fix the issue before it turns into a bigger mess. I couldn't be without the XP after having it. My HD came with a video that shows how to operate and do the maintenance steps. Did you get one with yours? Have to say it does a pretty good job showing what to do and seems to be working very well for me.  Hope you get a handle on it. I'm really enjoying how my Edge has been working so far and I don't seem to have the issues you are struggling with. Hopefully just the learning curve. Shoot for reaching and maintaining those higher reaction chamber temps now that you have it cleaned up. Good luck!

[bcdude]

Boilerman .."Yea & thanks for taking the time to respond..since I've cleaned out the primary elbow day befor yesterday it's burning better using less wood , smoking less , what worries me is the creasote I see in the firebox , it is wet on top and to a lesser extent the sides , what is normal? I also use a additive like astrol on the fire to help reduce it...this is my second year for this thing & im second guessing myself on everything I thot I knew about wood stoves , been around them all my life , but this is my first time with a out door boiler , yes I cycle the chains more often then recommended , they only work for dry ash not effective on wet creasote. And it's a back & forth thing as well . My temps if I sit and watch this ADMIN LANGUAGE EDIT thing does get up to and over 1000 . Yea got the video as well . I will look into the Xp but correct me if I'm wrong ...but all the Xp does is allow me to see the temps etc..with out going out to look at the furnace? Again there is no way to tell if the heat exchanger is getting congested without removing the panels. I don't know if the tiger torch will work or not as the creasote turns into this hard slagg . Hopefully I won't have to find out . So other then the wet firebox it's working well .

[E Yoder]

Having moisture in the top of the firebox is pretty normal with a gasser. Let it burn down to hot coals will help cook off that juice.

[boilerman101]

That is too bad bcdude. There is a lot of experience and people willing to help on this forum. The moderaters do a good job maintaining a clean site and don't let things get out of hand. I so often see some of the "gasser" downdraft owners jumping on forums and facebook sites as a platform to blast the furnace and manufacture for making a "bad" woodstove. Myself and many others here have operated the gassers for many years without any major problems. I believe most problems stem from the owner not being willing to operate a gasser the way they were designed to be operated and instructed to be run by the manufacture. And yes a gasser needs to be run and maintained differently. If you try to burn it the same way you did or would burn a traditional OWF you will have issues and you will not be happy. It is like buying a diesel truck but since you ran a gas truck before, you are going to continue to put put gas in your diesel truck and then when it won't run, the manufacture built a piece of garbage. If you follow the guidelines and instruction of your gasser, you will be rewarded with a warm house, a good running machine and burn much less wood that a traditional unit. Yes as Yoder said, a gasser firebox does run "wetter" and burning down the coals and maintaining a good coalbed is important. Seasoned wood makes operation much easier and doing a little maintenance daily or weekly is not a problem for me. Leaving it until you have it all plugged up or rot it out with wet creosote build up before you give it any attention, then you have a miserable problem. As for me, I liked my Eclassic 2400 and am loving update changes my Edge 750HD. I wouldn't go back to a traditional burner as I like the wood savings too much and they both have treated me very well.

[panolo]

I'm on my 3rd season of the 550 and I do not get anything but fly ash in my exchanger area. Pulled it apart last spring and it looked good. I still have my deflector in the combustion chamber and I run a 20 degree diff. 192 is my high temp. I do have to clean my primary elbow every now and again. Seems when I burn ash I get more creosote but running the higher temp seemed to help that a bunch.

I rattle my chains once every two weeks when I empty the ash. If it is burning right I have no idea how you could get creosoted up. When you look in the reaction chamber there is zero smoke passing. It is all burnt. How Long does it take to get to the 1st and 2nd stage in the secondary burn? My cycle might run for 30 minutes in the heavy cold and I am in the 1st stage (550) in typically 5-7 minutes. 

[Logging logginglogging]

I found some buildup in the primary elbow and port this spring when i tore it all down and cleaned it, check in there and see if that's clogged.

[Sdriscoll]

Hello all. New to forum. These issues with the 750 are exactly what I'm experiencing also. 1st year great then the issues. I now clean my back exchanger yearly. The intake elbow and side chambers get plugged yearly also. I'm to the point I feel like shutting down boiler every other month to do a complete clean. If it's purely the dryness of the wood I guess it's an easy $$ fix. Just build a shed. I don't hate the stove yet but cleaning those back exchangers sucks. 

[grizzly1232]

I am having the same issues with my 750, I am going into my 3rd year with this boiler, I had a classic 6048 previously for about 5 years and loved it, it was a beast it would burn anything with no problems, but my wife was filling it one day while I was at work and an ember had fallen out and she didn't realize it and walked away... well the wind was blowing 50+ that day and it started a fire and burned up my woodpile and the boiler. so insurance covered it so I researched it and decided on the 750 because the claim of burning less wood. the first year it did awesome no issues, reaction chamber 1000+ the 2nd year around February I started to have issues, my reaction chamber was only getting to around 550 degrees and creosote was everywhere the stupid chains wouldn't move or anything It was plugged solid, I took it all apart and tried to clean it the best way I could with no help from central boiler, I called and called and nobody could give me any tips or answers, until I got Cindy a customer service rep on the phone and she gave me a few tips to clean it, she told me to remove the back panels and expose the tubes in the back so I did and it was a solid block of creosote it was ridiculous, she told me to take a weed burning torch and just burn it all out so I would burn then chip then burn then chip so on and so on for hours I did this I still didn't free up the chains but I got an air path and thought this was good enough. I put it all back together and started it up again it lasted about 3 days then back to the 550 temps in the reaction chamber. It was plugged again, well it took a full 2 days to clean it the last time and I didn't have 2 full days to do it again between work and 4 kids and everything else so I just dealt with the 550 temps and burned it like my old classic with the bypass open, so inefficient and not ideal but it was middle of winter and cold so I couldn't stop it clean it out cool it down climb in clean out again. just wasn't going to happen so I put it off until I shut it down this summer and I would clean it in the fall before the next season, well the season is now here so I took off work called Cindy again and asked for directions she told me same thing burn it out but take it all apart this time. back access, side chamber, elbows, ash pan, everything so I did and again it was two 12 hr days to clean this stupid thing, not to mention I probably have cancer now from all the smoke particles and carcinogens I breathed in through my respirator. so now it is clean chains are free it is clean so I guess I will see in the next few weeks if it was worth it. But I also asked Cindy about why do they now offer an access door to the tubes if this wasn't a known problem and she was honest and said that it has been a problem for several customers. I am now looking to buy a used classic because if this happens again I will not climb in the stupid thing ever again that was the most miserable thing I have ever done, I will smash it and haul it to a scrap yard and install the classic.  

[woody_88]

To add about how sucky it can be to clean the exchangers from the inside of the early edge models. I have a 550. I'm about 6' 220 ish and felt like was doing a *DanG magic show act trying to fold my body to get inside and unbolt the "access" panels. 

At the time of purchase, the dealer offered a deal on this old model being stainless inside and out. The new model was only stainless inside and mild out( one way or the other). BUT..new one had the rear access!  :'(

[DDW_OR]

I went to their manufacturing plant a couple years ago
took the tour, no cameras allowed.
then the rep took me out side to look at the 750, old style.
i then asked him to remove the plates inside the firebox.
he looked and tried to figure out how he was going to crawl inside to do it
i then suggested the rear door and rotating the heat exchanger
he liked that idea
then i mentioned that their competitors where using stainless steel for their fire boxes
he liked that idea
then i suggested using stepper motors instead of solenoids
he liked that idea

all i got was a hat

[petefrom bearswamp]

I have an older (2005) classic that eats anything.
I read about the many problems with the eclassic and am glad I didnt upgrade when I had one small leak about 6 years ago.
Im sure that as has been said here that dry dry dry wood is a necessity.
My 2 year old wood gets to about 16 percent or slightly lower, so maybe 22 is too high for these finicky critters. 

[Logging logginglogging]

My 750 has been good so far, This will be the third season with it. I have not had these really bad blockages like this but had some creosote in the primary elbow. Before this i had a E-classic 2300 that had similar elbow clogging, I cleaned that every 3 weeks, I clean this 750 about every 4 weeks. When I burn i try and keep a low bed of coals, often letting it burn down on the weekends when i can be home and stir it. I get some pretty hot reaction chamber temps. I know that if i were having the clogging in the bars in the reaction chamber I would try and make a sharp tool that would fit in between them to try and dig it out, I think if u put a good sharp edge on a metal tool just the right size to fit in there it might work well.

[DDW_OR]

i use a 3/4 piece of metal conduit about 6 feet long
i bent both ends at 90 degrees
one end has a 12 inch past the bend, the other end has maybe 1 inch