The Greenhorn's initial sawing season 2019-20

[Old Greenhorn]

Brandon, if you take a look at the Grosenbaugh formula near the end of my  prior post you can see what you are dealing with.  If you can find where in that formula to adjust for kerf, well you have me in awe. ;DI know some folks can parse out such things, but I will never be one of them  ;D :D.
 I think the key take-away is to go through the exercise and see what the formula predicts, then see what you really get and then adjust for your own purposes. If I can say 'I usually get 10% mor than predicted by Grosenbaugh on straight logs then that will give me a very good idea how many logs I need to produce a certain amount of BF. That, right there, is all I need. 
 Yes, I think right now you have more important bridges to burn, as I did just a year ago. It was just my time now, is all. When the day comes that a logger tells you he can drop off logs and wants $.10/BF then maybe you will have an idea where to find out what that means.
 I'll let everybody know how part 2 goes. I had to get outside and get some air so I just skidded up 2 of the logs logs I am taking for this project. Now I need to eat and rest.

[donbj]

One issue I see with these different scale methods is the factoring of saw kerf. Take the same log and use different sticks allowing for different saw kerfs and the guy selling the log potentially gets different price depending on what stick/saw kerf is used, seems shaky to me. On top of that the taper can potentially be not accounted for but holds value. Kinda like buying a gallon of milk in a square jug but will only pay for the milk that will fit in a cylinder that will fit in that jug.

The metric scale accounts for every bit of solid and sound wood in a log. If you want to use a 1/4" kerf, 3/8" kerf, 1/8" kerf to saw it up that's all up to you, not me the log owner having to adjust my price by what the buyers saw kerf is.

No system is perfect.

[beav]

Back in my logging days we used to call the scaling ruler the "gyp stick"

[woodyone.john]

If I want a predictable out turn,I measure the small end diameter ,from which I know because if I have too i  can  draw it
I sometimes tell my clients to do the same. I might not saw it how theyve drawn it but I will be able saw those boards.
I prefer to use the JAS standard for log measurement because it suits a sawmiller or processer.
Forest owner may feel they are being had but if there are boards to be had from the extra taper and they have value then this is reflected on price...... IMHO.cheers

[YellowHammer]

Understanding the log rules and their real world yield is important.  I have found that I can easily match, exceed, or fail to meet the rule predictions based in the style of sawing I do.

For example, through sawing or conventional face sawing will always beat the Doyle scale, while parrallel bark or grade sawing plus also eliminating the pith will sometimes just barely beat scale, and quartersawing will sometimes not beat the scale. Also, end trimming logs to standard size will also push the yield down.  So understanding yield vs your own particular style of sawing is important.  

As a side note, I try to have the same scale stick in my truck that the log scaler uses where I buy my logs.  That helps clear up difficulty when confirming scale values real time out in the mud and the dust. Around here, most of the pros uses the Lufkin folding style.  

I personally prefer to use the blue metal, one piece Logrite rule because the numbers are big and readable.  It's also the best scale stick I have found to swat snakes and other critters.  

 

[Old Greenhorn]

Very true YH, this is my goal, to build an understanding going forward. I have understood from early on that sawing methods directly affect yield, especially if the log has issues.  I am narrowing in on this 'understanding thing', I think. ;D
 Those scale sticks are a bit pricey for the tiny bit of use I would give them, (need a metal detector first) however if things progress and some cash comes in then it will make more sense to get one. I didn't realize Logrite made scales and when I went to their site I can see why. They are pretty much hidden and not on any of the main menus, you have to search. But I very much like how they have made them and their prices are quite competitive, so when the time comes, that is where I will go. They do not specify if their International scale is 1/4" or 1/8", so I assume it is 1/4". No matter, a simple phone call will answer the question when the time comes. It's just a nit, everything is relative.
 I would actually prefer a folding ruler, but I have yet to find one using the international scale, they are all Doyle. No matter, I am a small operator at this and for now I just use my Spencer tape to collect the numbers and do the figuring at my desk. (Snake swatting is not a priority for me, particularly at this time of year, they are pretty much gone.)
 I did skid up 2 logs yesterday just to get out in the fresh air. The one I thought was my big log (in the group) was supposed to give me the 4 2x10x12' I need for the loft headers. I scaled these covered in a foot of snow and now with the snow banged off I can see there is a seam running up 4' so I likely will not get what I need. If it warms up enough, I am determined to mill that log and see what I get. It's 13° here this morning and in my weakened condition I don't think I want to push it too much. when it gets into the mid 20's I'll go out. Not even sure I can get this log on the mill myself as I have not built ramps yet and don't have a lot of strength in my legs either at this point. It would be a shame to waste the day, blue skies, no wind, and crisp air.

[Ed_K]

 I use a folding rule to get to the logs that are to far in for my 1/4' int. logrite scale. I can measure twice to get an average then look at the scale to get my bf.
 On a side note could you attach a swinging pole to your garage to pull logs up on to the mill an also use it to turn them?

[Old Greenhorn]

Yes Ed, I could certainly do that but I have a better plan I think involving a small winch. The mill has only bee set for a week. That stuff will have to wait a while, probably spring. For now I just horse them up. Given that this looks like a long winter I really want to get this lumber milled up before the snow gets too deep. Just getting by is good enough for now.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well it was fairly cool this morning (12°) and given this crud I have and the little bit of sleep I am getting at night I really didn't feel like getting outside today. But I need to go to work tomorrow, like it or not, and I had to get some work out in clean air today to get my body moving along. SO, late morning, out I went. Thought I'd kill myself getting that 12' log up on the mill without ramps or help, but I got it up. I really wanted to mill it and see how my calculated numbers came up against the actual output. I need 4 2x10x12' for the loft headers and this log was cut for that. It was cold and I am weak, so I would work about 45 minutes then sense the need to come in and sit for 15 minutes to warm up my toes, then go at it again. 
 I mentioned that I had left off the last track section on the mill because I really didn't need it, and I don't right now, but I should have taken the 2 minutes to remove the end stop off the un-used section and put it in place on the last section. I thought about it, but thought "Nah, i'll be fine". Guess what? First cut on the 12 footer and I just pushed it off the end. Thank my lucky stars that the bottom rails got hung on the 6x6 timbers I had under the tracks. Easy to push back on and I'll never do that again, right? Nope, did it again an hour later. :D ;D I'd call that 'did something dumb today' for sure.



 

Anyway, I worked in those shifts and got it milled up. The interesting thing was the color in this log. It is maple (soft, I think) and the greens in the grain surprised me. I don't know if you can see them in the photos, but I have never seen this in any of the maple I have cut thus far.



 



 

There is a little bit of spalting also. This tree was dropped a little over a year ago and I am just getting to fetching it out. I did hit a hollow spot around the pith, but I think I can work around it.

 The big question I had was "how does it measure against the estimates?" Well, in my little chart a few posts back this log was figured at between 100 and 102 BF. I got 4 2x10's and one 2x8 out of it, bringing the actual yield to 96 BF, which is pretty darn close on the International Scale. Now these were big boards. If I was milling for yield, I might have got more or I might not, it had an odd shape and that was tricky to work around. But this is definitely adding a piece to the puzzle of my education. I will continue to tally the other logs as they get milled although the next one is likely to be a flyer because I made a 'slight error' when bucking, but it's all good. Learning continues. Now if I could just shake this danged cold.

[trimguy]

I have been following this post. thanks for all the information. this is not something that I really need to know because I don't buy or sell logs but I'm curious. definitely interested. I would some day like to be able to look at a log and know how much I could get from it. right now I just cut the boards I need and maybe a side board or two. 

[Old Greenhorn]

I don't buy or sell logs either. I just need a way to have a good idea of how much lumber I can expect from a log because I generally cut logs for the requirements I have, such as a build project. So the knowledge is helping me figure things more closely.

[YellowHammer]

Knowing what to expect from a log, in my opinion, is an important step.  All the information fits together onto a whole picture, and knowing what to expect before sawing, and then seeing the actual yield leads to understanding.  To me it's just part of the process.  

When I did a lot of custom sawing, understanding scale yields was an important part of me getting a good reputation.  Since I knew I could beat Doyle, I knew I could cut the log up for quality and actually be more liberal with my cut selection, knowing I would still meet or exceed the initial cost estimates I gave the customer when they delivered the logs and produce a high quality product at the same time.  

[RAYAR]

I mentioned that I had left off the last track section on the mill because I really didn't need it, and I don't right now, but I should have taken the 2 minutes to remove the end stop off the un-used section and put it in place on the last section. I thought about it, but thought "Nah, i'll be fine". Guess what? First cut on the 12 footer and I just pushed it off the end. Thank my lucky stars that the bottom rails got hung on the 6x6 timbers I had under the tracks. Easy to push back on and I'll never do that again, right? Nope, did it again an hour later. :D ;D I'd call that 'did something dumb today' for sure.



 

Should've grabbed a pair of vice-grips and clamped on the end of one rail as a stop ;)

[Old Greenhorn]

The big question I had was "how does it measure against the estimates?" Well, in my little chart a few posts back this log was figured at between 100 and 102 BF. I got 4 2x10's and one 2x8 out of it, bringing the actual yield to 96 BF, which is pretty darn close on the International Scale. 

Just to keep the record clean (mostly for my own benefit), I was driving home last night and thought about that log and realized that had I not had that defect in the log I would have gotten 5 2x10's out of it. There was just a little bit more wane in that last board than I could live with for it's purpose, so I am making it a 2x8. Had I gotten the 5 2x10's out of the log it would have been..... 100 BF, which is just as predicted.  I just wanted to set the record straight.

[ManjiSann]

The coloring in that maple reminds me of the poplar boards I see in the box stores. Real pretty in my opinion

Glad no injuries or damage to the mill, bet that was a bit of a tense moment when it dropped that little bit 

Hope you kick the cold soon!

Brandon 

[Old Greenhorn]

Nah, no worries, it was fine. The cold is still holding in strong but I am gaining on it, I think. Still it's been 13 days now and I am getting tired of it. The weather isn't helping. Hoping to get back to work this weekend. I don't even have enough energy to piddle in the shop in the evenings. Yeah, I will watch the color in that and see if it holds, but I don't expect it to.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well, I don't know if I am feeling better (took a heck of a nap at lunchtime at work today and woke myself up with my own snoring), but I came home and decided I needed to get into the shop and 'do something' to break this funk I am in. 
 I had bought a new tank for the blade lube on the mill a year ago and was just holding it until the other one completely disintegrated, and it is pretty much there now besides the fact that there was a clog in the fitting that was giving me fits, every time I cleaned it, it would clog 5 minutes later. Time to fix that. Hud-son does not supply a new fitting on their replacement tanks nor do they put the hole in them. They just send a jug. No biggie once I figured out how the fitting was installed. Drilled the hole in the new tank, cleaned out the fitting, put it together, new hose, new valve and it will be good to go when I put it back on the mill Saturday.
 The next thing that was bothering me was the heater fan switch on the Mule broke clean off when I was prepping for last weeks snowstorm. No problem doing without it, but I hate not having things work right, so I ordered an aftermarket switch. Quite a job to get the old one out, all corroded and the nut was seized. My son was in the shop and grabbed a die grinder and we cut it in half and popped the nut off. Then I just had to figure out the wiring change from the old to the new switch. That worked on the first try, some dibble-dabble to make it fit and stay tight, and close the dash back up and good to go. Works as expected. 
 These were very small chores, but at least I got something done. Trying to queue stuff up for the weekend but Saturday is looking like a rain-out, so the plan is to skid up some more logs. We are back to mud now with all the rain and warmth so that should be fun. ;D It is supposed to be warm, so I should be able to keep working as long as my wind holds up.  Sunday I should be able to get some milling done. It's nice to see that the snow is gone from my stacks so I don't have to work around that. There is a lot I can do in a light rain, but there is a limit. The mil bed is free of snow also, but I still have ice along the walkway next to it from going back and fourth last weekend. 

[WDH]

Yeah, I will watch the color in that and see if it holds, but I don't expect it to.

Yes it will. 

[YellowHammer]

Yeah, I will watch the color in that and see if it holds, but I don't expect it to.

Yes it will.  

I agree.  

[Old Greenhorn]

Yeah, I will watch the color in that and see if it holds, but I don't expect it to.

Yes it will.  

I agree.  

Well then, so it shall be. Shame to waste it on framing. The next two logs up come off the same stem, but higher up. Some of it will be 5/4 for the floor so that will show anyway. Hopefully, no more bad spots. The rot hole I found around the pith was buried with no outward signs until I opened it up. Must have been a bug trying to build a condo complex. ;D

[WDH]

Bugs do that. 

[Old Greenhorn]

Bugs do that.

Indeed. You never know what you are going to find.

[Old Greenhorn]

The weather has cooled off again and the ground is stiffening up. Rain is supposed to start tomorrow and run through Sunday, very depressing. I am still recovering (slept for 45 minutes during lunch today) and I continue to try and do some little chores each night and work on project sketches.
 When I got hoe today in the mail was the annual calendar from the Trained Logger Certification program for the watershed area. They do a very nice job with great photos of local logging operations that are new each year. The gal that takes the photos is really good. Anyway I was flipping through it to see what classes were on the schedule and when I got to September I glanced at the photo and saw a guy with an orange full brim hard hat. These are not common around here and I thought it was odd, so I looked at the photo closer and realized it was me. It was taken during my GOL3 class. Fortuantely, she got my good side (you can't see my face) and I blend into the crowd well. But I thought it was neat.


 

I am the guy all the way on the right in the black jacket.
 Anyway, you know I am bored if this is the bright spot in my week.  ;D I wish I had something exciting to add. 
 With all the rain we have coming I am thinking about going up to the Harbor Freight store which is about 45 minutes drive. I have never been and they have some stuff on clearance. My wife seems anxious to go. I figure if we get up there early, we will be back in time to get something done.
 I am SO glad tomorrow is Friday, rain or not. 

[thecfarm]

Harbor freight is ok. I don't buy tools there. But I see a bunch go out the door each time I am there. I buy cut off wheels,black tape,even bought some drill bits,for metal, there and they work great.  Bought the wife a welding cart,big wheels,so she can wheel her garden tools around.

[SawyerTed]

I have a fairly low opinion of Harbor Freight products in general.  My experience hasn't been good with their products.  The wrenches, sockets, screwdrivers and pliers are just ok.  About 10 years ago, I had to have surgery due to an injury caused by a HF cheap drill bit.  Cutoff wheels and grinding disks spin too fast for me to trust HF products.  I worked at a company that used HF products extensively so I've used many of their products.

To go to the HF store, I have to pass numerous other retailers that offer higher quality products.