Questions from a Prospective Sawyer

[Southside]

I should have added that it can also apply to crossing County lines or even "x" miles in general. Get with the area state Forester and or Forest Ranger to find out what applies. In some cases it's only one species as in Walnut where the thousand canker disease is present, look up the Emerald Ash Borer if you want to understand why these are in place. 

[jeepcj779]

... for getting started, look up the DanG Deadhead log loader.  Maybe the same truss system you mentioned.

You can also parbuckle them.  Deckover trailers work better for this, but can be done on a car trailer.  Basically, make side ramps and use a winch to roll the log up the ramps and on the trailer.  ;)

The DanG is where I got the idea. Did some additional research and figured that is the way to go. I also looked into parbuckling, but I don't know if I like the stresses that would place on whatever structure I had on the side of the trailer that would house the winch. I think unloading the logs would be easier with the truss also.

[YellowHammer]

I used a truck repair service crane mounted on a double axle dump trailer years ago.  You see these mounted on heavy repair vehicles driving up and down the road.  If I could get within cable distance, I could skid and load logs.  It worked great.  The crane would extend to 15 feet and had a winch.  I could deadlift 3500 lbs over the side, or lift one end of a real heavy and it up the tail gate ramp.  The crane was used and cost about $2,000 and that's exactly what I sold it for, years later.  

Remember, the magic number is 26,000 lbs total manufacturer rated weight for both the truck and trailer combination vehicle combination or you will need a CDL in any commercial venture.  Cross state lines over 10,000 lbs and you will need a DOT number.  Cross state lines over 26,000 lbs and you will need a CDL.  Exceed 10,000 lbs in some states and you will need a DOT number.

Get stopped by a friendly state trooper in violation of these rules and you may get a ticket as expensive and lengthy as mine.  If you want to learn more, go to the FMCSA website, it has all the rules and regulations.  

If you get a 2500 class truck (intentionally and strategically rated for 10,000 lbs by the manufacturer) and can get a gooseneck rated at 16,000 lbs by the manufacturer, you will have a vehicle combination that will legally be able to haul a little over a thousand board feet of logs, safely, at a time.  



 

[jeepcj779]

  If you want to learn more, go to the FMCSA website, it has all the rules and regulations.  

If you get a 2500 class truck (intentionally and strategically rated for 10,000 lbs by the manufacturer) and can get a gooseneck rated at 16,000 lbs by the manufacturer, you will have a vehicle combination that will legally be able to haul a little over a thousand board feet of logs, safely, at a time.  

That is a nice rig. The more I think about it the more I feel like will end up getting a one ton later this year. I feel limited with my current truck and trailer, even without considering logs and milling. I can't reasonably pull a 5th wheel or goose neck trailer currently due to payload limitations. I think I will end up getting a CDL either way...I think there is a program for veterans where I can take the course for a discounted rate. I will have to look into it. Thanks for the advice on weight restrictions and licensing requirements.

[thecfarm]

quarantine,I had my land logged. They was cutting white pine in one county,putting it on a forwarder and hauling into another county,that was quarantined. Just a phone call made it alright to move and sell.

[YellowHammer]

The requirements for a CDL and DOT are without doubt, a total pain.  I would consider it carefully before I did it.  The requirements have changed over the years and have gotten considerably more problematic with lots of increased paperwork and overhead.  Not to mention penalties. Basically, getting and maintaining a CDL or DOT registration involves paperwork, paperwork and money.  Then more paperwork and more money.  

If you decide to do it, I would advise the same route I did, hire a CDL Management company to help you through the process.  I use Foley Trucking, it's money well spent, as among other things the help and coordinate background checks, driver Motor Vehicle Reports, FMSCA medical exams, (I just got mine a couple days ago), random drug tests (You'll need to designate a company official as the officer who notifies you to go), routine drug tests, self reporting to the FMSCA organization, and increased insurance are just for starters.  You also have to know and pay a variety of road taxes, based upon mileage, keep a log book anytime you drive the truck, or install and use an Electronic Logging Device, depending on your travel mileage.  You will also need signs for your truck, and they better have the correct font! Or that's a ticket.  You'll also have to get both the truck and trailer inspected yearly, by a certified FMCSA approved inspection garage or mechanic.  That costs money.  It all cost money, and a fair bit of it.  Every year.  This doesn't even cover the driving tests, written tests, and also a newly enacted apprentice program.  Veterans can get allowances, but I'm not sure how helpful that is.  There is lots of other stuff to do, besides the driving.  You also have to keep maintenance logs and prove your short haul mileage if you use that instead of a log book.  Lots and lots of laws to know.  For example, if you drive your rig to the FMSCA test site, to get your drivers test, and are not accompanied by a CDL driver, you will get a ticket, and your test will be automatically postponed 6 months.  

Also, a word of caution, driving penalties  are more significant, and nightly jail time is not unheard of for relatively insignificant violations, especially in some states.  So make sure you have the cell phone of somebody who can come get youout of jail.  For example, I was threatenened with jail time for one of my infractions.  I thought they (Friendly State Trooper) was joking.  He was not.  I told a friend about it and he knew a guy who got to spend the night in jail because he had let his medical card expire, so it was illegal to drive without it, and off to the slammer.  

Also, if you get an OOS violation, (Out Of Service) violation, your rig will be impounded immediately, so you'd better have a back up vehicle and buddy to get you home.  I got an OOS violation for having loose bark chips on my trailer (Unsecured Load) as well as not having my emergency brake cable not properly secured to part of my truck frame, not part of the hitch (which is where I hooked it). No jail time for me, but I was taken out of service in the parking lot until I fixed the issues.

You'll also need a commercial tag, to the tune of about a thousand bucks a year.

To make sure all the laws and regulations are followed, it's Federal Law that all new CDL or DOT drivers will get a thorough State Trooper Audit within 18 months.  Any violations will be found, fixed or penalties enforced.

As an alternative, if you get a DOT number, but not a CDL, some of the more pain in the rear requirement will be waived, notable some of the road taxes, drug tests, random drug tests, employee training programs, and stuff.  That's why you see so many big panel and rental trucks with big signs on their side "Under 26,000 GMVR."  Remember, it's not what you are hauling, it's what your rig is capable of hauling.  

There are many, many people who ignore these laws and good luck to them. I did for a while, and Nope, Not a Good Idea.  

There is a big push to get non compliant gooseneck and fifth wheel rigs aligned with the laws.  A year or so ago I got a call from a guy in Chattanooga who had bought my old trailer from a dealership and he was remiss on some of its paperwork, and was asking if I had it.  Nope, sorry.  The trailer had been impounded for lack of paperwork and his only option was to buy a new one as it would take weeks to find and clear the paperwork and he had work to to.  

Commercial drivers lisceses, either DOT or CDL, are no joke, and I remembered old guys  that used to say it was easy now say how difficult it is to maintain.  In the real world, the trucking company had people who manage and keep up with all this stuff.  If you are a one man operation like me, then you get to do it all.  

Lots of people think having a farm tag will solve all this, but it only applies to primary processing operations.  For example, it's legal to carry logs but not lumber for a business.  However, DOT regs and registration are still enforced.  It's not unheard of for the Troopers to sit at the local cattle auctions, and write tickets to farmers who are in violation and don't have a DOT number. 

Oh yeah, better get used to going across truck scales.  

[Southside]

YellowHammer is spot on there, and has the experience to back it.  Having owned a small fleet of semi's before the crash and then doing some hot shot work after it, today I focus on what makes me money and I just pay for the trucking.  If you are not hauling something of value both ways you are loosing money, and a 10 year old pickup trying to be legal is going to be a very expensive endeavor to stay out of the violation category so your option is to buy a $60K or more truck which can legally haul say $1.50 worth of freight / mile, at $0.50 / mile operation cost if you are only loaded one way now you are only getting $0.50 / mile worth of value out of your investment and time, or $30 / hour for your time and $60K-$80K investment, subtract your regulatory / paperwork time and money since that does not earn you any income and you are in the mid $20 range.  

You don't have to saw much lumber to make $25 / hour, no fool is going to cut right in front of you on a down hill slope, and there is no worry about getting a "repair / defect ticket" for a hose that "is going to come loose at some point", and you have to bring the vehicle to a garage for "repairs" and getting the defect ticket signed off on - yes I got one of those once on a brand new semi - had under 20K on the clock, the garage guy just shook his head and wrote that no repair was necessary or possible.   

[caveman]

The hauling horror stories of Yellowhammer, Southside and MikeBelben have me rethinking the gooseneck that we bought and rebuilt a few years ago.  It is convenient not to have to haul two trailers to pick up a few logs but the wrong, overly enthusiastic enforcement officer could certainly put a damper on a fellow working hard and trying to occasionally make a buck.  

I once got a ticket from a marine patrol officer for having the lower half of my boat's i.d. numbers that had faded slightly due to sun exposure.  He was intent on writing me a ticket for an illegal snook that turned out to be within the slot limit after it thawed a bit and was able to be properly measured.  A highway patrolman once gave me a seatbelt ticket even though I was wearing my seatbelt in the appropriate manner.  One night in 1989, John and I got pulled over for "sounding like we were driving too fast".  I asked the friendly officer how fast did it sound like I was going?

I could probably get in trouble for either of my/our trailers (we built the blue one almost 20 years ago).
The brand new radials had more sidewall flex on the bridge expansion joints.  We blew out two tires at 5 a.m. in west Georgia on that Sunday morning.  We found a tire store open in Albany that mounted a couple of new tires.  We removed the fender to ensure we would have clearance for the rest of the trip.  The fenders were moved in an inch since.

When the GN is loaded with longleaf pine or longleaf and a tractor on the back it is really more of a load than my truck wants to tow.  The truck has a 7.3 and a six speed.


 

 

[jeepcj779]

Well, now I have a headache. I guess I will have to do my research before I dive in to a one ton with 20,000lb goose neck. Looks like a 2500/250 towing 16000lb might be the reasonable limit. Like I said before, my 2500 weighs 8000lbs with no load, so I am limited on payload (I might be forced to buy a Ford!). That is the reason I was considering a one ton. Once again, I appreciate the continued advice and the passing on of experience, good and bad.

For a while there, I thought the mention of grits and/or SGU's was a thread-killer.

[Dana Stanley]

I like grits with a little maple syrup, or honey, but then again I'm a Yankee so what do I know> I remember the first time I had grits it was compliments of Havloc County SC. I was heading to FLA, in a VW beetle back in 1974, I was 16 on a learners permit, and no registration. We had grits for breakfast every morning that weekend while I waited to see the judge. Hay this kinda plays into the have all your paperwork straight part of this thread as well as the grits aspect!

[jeepcj779]

  I guess grits are really divisive, or at least polarizing enough to shut down a topic. Speaking of polarizing and divisive, I started this topic indicating I would be getting a Cooks or a Timberking. When asked why not Woodmizer, I said it was because of the head movement I saw in videos, both on Woodmizer's site and on individual videos on YouTube, even though there is no indication it negatively affects lumber. Well, the more research I do, videos I watch, and posts I read on the forum, the less sure I am which mill is best for me. I definitely want full hydraulics, a wide throat, ability to cut longer  timbers (with extension), and the most mill I can afford ($50K+/- 5K). I guess I can afford more than that, but there are things to consider other than the mill, like a mill shed, covered area for air drying, log handling/transport, kiln eventually, etc., and I need to be able to afford those things also. I plan to be mostly mobile at first, milling at customer locations. Any milling I do at my location will be for my own use at first, then when I have the necessary infrastructure, I will start milling, kiln drying, and possibly producing finished products at my location. How and when I expand will depend largely on market conditions in my area.
 In any case, I would like to know, from those who have actually operated the mill you are commenting on, what are the best features on your mill, and also where your mill falls short. If it helps inform your answers, my vision of what I will be doing most resembles what Magicman, Peter Drouin, and WV Sawmiller do. They all seem to have semi-solo operations, do a lot of work, and all have Woodmizers. Please don't use that last line to tell me I answered my own question. I would still like to hear pros and cons for different mills. Thanks.

[doc henderson]

jeep have you got to see and run a few mills in your area?  the prob. with us is, we all love what we have been using. wide cut throat is good, hydraulics good, power good.  close dealer nice.  helpful dealer important.  It is like a computer program.  after you get used to it, you learn how to overcome issues and would not want to change.  like moving to UK and driving on the "wrong" side of the road.  

[moodnacreek]

When I was a boy and we where coming along the road, about dark, load of hay about 10 ' wide, no lights, no triangle at that time and a state trooper came along, he would follow us home so we wouldn't get hit. Now look where we are.

[Southside]

Hua?

[redbeard]

Cooks has a New mill that is very interesting.
Wide cut with production mill portable too!

 

[samandothers]

JeepCJ779
Thanks for your service. 

Have you contacted TK to see how may have a mill in your area you could visit?  You could do the same with the other brands and go visit.  I did this before I purchased and it was good help. I ended up with a Woodmizer LT35 from Carolina Woodmizer and have been happy with my decision.  Plus I have a dealer close by and use them for blade resharpening.  In Va where our land is located is a person with a couple of TK's and a Woodmaster equipment and uses them in his business.

[thecfarm]

Dealer support is important,but....... I have a husky saw. I've had it 12 years,been in the shop over night 3 times. I have a NH tractor,been in the shop once,too much rock digging at The Farm, :  I have a Heatmor OWB,only get blower motors from him,I have various other equipment,IF I said IF I have to contact them,I have to hunt for the number.  Dealer support is important,but I don't need them too often. If I did,tells me I made a wrong choice. ;)

[jeepcj779]

Doc
 I have not been able to run or look at any except on the internet. I am "stuck" in Hawaii until I retire this spring. I understand about people liking their mills and being able to get around any shortcomings. I have watched many videos and have read many posts and web pages about the different mills. There are things I like and dislike about all of them, which is why I am undecided. I can appreciate the benefit of the wide cut throat on the TK mills, but a 3" difference is likely not worth $10,000. There are other advantages to the TK, like the use of more hydraulic components vs electric. I could argue both sides of that, depending on which mill I owned. Most mills seem to have advantages and disadvantages, and it seems like mill preference is based on what people already own. There is a psychological component to that I bet. I will get hands on eventually, probably when I go on leave in October. I won't make a decision until I do, but in the mean time I will gain as much knowledge as I can from others' experience.

redbeard
 I saw the Cook's 44 in their catalog. I asked them about it when corresponding through email. Besides being wider throat, it will not come with a drag back and will have 19" band wheels. Bang=Buck? Don't know.

samandothers
 You are welcome. Proud to serve. I have contacted TK, but I have not asked about local owners. I will heed your advice when I am closer to going on leave.

thecfarm
 I guess I won't know how much dealer support I will need until I need it.

Thanks for all the replies.

[YellowHammer]

Dealer support is a very important thing, and not support before the sale, but support after. It can not be underestimated, especially when climbing the learning curve of sawmilling.  

Even if you are sawing for yourself, there's something nice to be able to call someone and immediately gets parts shipped, or having someone knowledgeable on the phone who has been there and done that.  

Look at the length of the warranty.  That is vital.

Sawmills and other sawmill equipment break down, it's inevitable, and generally most often during the break in period, which is why it's called "break in."

Here are two personal examples of product support from sawmill equipment companies that I have had direct experience.  I will not mention any names, that's not the point.  The point is, both of these are extremes on either side of the spectrum, and both left a lasting, never to be forgotten impression.  Both are big name sawmill and sawmill equipment manufacturers.  

On one piece of equipment, a custom build, arrived by semi truck and I very quickly I realized it was performing inadequately.  Something was Wrong.  I couldn't figure it out. I called up the manufacturer at 3:00 pm in the evening, before they closed. I discussed the problem with them, they gave me a few things try, and still no joy.  I was Not Happy.  So I emailed them after hours and laid it all out.  At 0900 the NEXT morning, they called me back said they had already had a meeting in-house to discuss the issue, and had their repair and service guy packing the truck to leave their facility at noon.  He showed up later that very same day after dark, and we started working it the next morning.  He drove 6 hours to make the service call.  Six hours.  No charge  Incredible service.  

On the other side of the spectrum, on another piece of sawmill related equipment, well, let's just say the customer service was inadequate.  Its been years, but it still aggravats me so much I can't even think about it without getting royally PO'd and lets just say, I will never, never, and never buy a piece of equipment from them. Ever.  

In both cases, the companies had good enough reputations for me to buy from.  Both companies had pieces of equipment that for one reason or another, had mechanical issues.  However, it was how they handled the after purchase service that was so remarkable, and left such a lasting memory.  

[jeepcj779]

Yellowhammer
  Thanks for the advice. I admire your operation. Woodmizer would definitely have an advantage when it comes to proximity. There is a dealer a couple hours from me. I will visit them in October during an event they are hosting. I have heard nothing but good things about Woodmizer service, so I am not concerned about service from them. Their warranty, while not the best in the industry, is probably adequate.

[doc henderson]

I thought about it for 15 years and liked that the co. was in KC.  you are in process and will make a good decision.  You really cannot go wrong with most of the sponsors on this site.  Most of them you get what you pay for as they are all following each other and compete.  so if they charge more, they at least try to point out what you get extra.  If I speak with Matt, I will see if there is any equipment in HI. You can decide what is important for you , and what ever you get you will most likely love.  The newest truck my dad ever owned had 3,000 miles when he bought it.  He bragged about his "jimmy"  like it had magical powers pulling trailer ect.  still have the old 1971 GMC.

[Bandmill Bandit]

First I would like to thank you for your dedication and service in the military even though i am Canadian. Military service in any of the allied nations armed forces is an important function of a working democracy.

As has been stated previously AFTER sale service is the most important factor in your success as a milling operation, how ever I will take it one notch higher; The best service is the service you DON'T need. For this peace of mind you will pay a premium initial price for your mill that will be saved many times over during your general operation and production. Not to mention the additional production you will realize.

The sponsors of the forum for the most part build good equipment, some better than others.

Its been 15 years since I walked the path you are on. I spent 2 years looking AND more importantly offering free labor to owners of mills just to get a feel for the different brands.

At the start I had my eye on a mill that I thought was going to my mill of choice based on their web site alone. After 2 years and about 250 hours of stacking lumber behind 5 different mills I ended up with a mill I hadn't  even considered looking at when i started looking.

Even at that I did a whole lot of upgrades because I should have gone up a model at least and probably 2 models.

I still harass my dealer that they undersold me when I bought the mill.

I own a Woodmizer LT40 hydraulic that today I call "Almost Super" as a result of the upgrades I've done, all of which are documented/described on this site.

IMHO

Woodmizer stands head and shoulders above ALL the others in spite of there being some very good competition to them.

As and older gent you will very quickly come to appreciate of the ergonomics of a Woodmizer.

In this regard they stand alone in field the rest do not qualify to stand on. There are other factors that help them stay there as well but that is something we could discuss in private if you would like too.

Orange sawmills and Green tractors occupy the same space when it come to quality, reliability and resale value. At the end of the day, ownership of those 2 colors ultimately cost less to own and operate.      

[SawyerTed]

Jeepcj779,

I was where you are 18 months ago.  You would be welcome to come up and spend a day around my operation.  About 1/3 of what I do is sawing and selling, about 1/3 is custom sawing from my logs or theirs, about 1/3 is portable custom sawing.

Tree service logs are a shaky way to have a supply of logs.  I only accept select tree service logs, mostly walnut, cherry and white oak.  I find metal in 70% or more of yard trees.  I've learned the hard way that tree service folks aren't particularly attentive to their measuring and sawing.  Prime logs often aren't cut to marketable lengths or are ruined by sawing technique.

I'm either cutting my own trees or acquiring logs from loggers for lumber sales.

I've been down the "get a bigger truck", "need a drying shed", "need a kiln" paths etc in the last year.  Every situation and every market is different.  I'm finding most of what I do doesn't require a kiln. The great majority of what I saw is utility lumber, outbuilding framing and board and batten siding.

The whole business of hauling logs and complying with DOT requirements is an endeavor of its own.  Do your homework on this issue. 

Come on up sometime.  I'm about 2 1/2 hours away from Dunn.

[ladylake]

  I'll agree the best service is service not needed, it's been at least 3 years since I called Timberking.  Nice simple mill without a lot of troublesome electric thing to go wrong.  Read the post on here about troubles with mills.  Steve

[jeepcj779]

Doc,
 Thanks. Unfortunately the only dealer that is local is WM. Cooks is 10 hours and TK 16 hours. Proximity of the dealer is definitely a consideration.

Bandmill Bandit,
 Thank you. I hope our democracies remain intact for a long time to come. I will try to get around to several different mills before I drop a bunch of $ on my own. I will buy the most mill I can afford. I have never owned a piece of equipment I thought was too big or that I would not outgrow. When I buy it will be for now and for future expansion. Thank you for your perspective on WM.

SawyerTed,
 I may take you up on that offer. PM sent.

Steve,
 Whichever mill I choose, I hope it is as trouble free as yours. I still have a few months to figure things out before decision time.

Thanks all for the replies.