Whatcha Sawin' 2020 ??

[Walnut Beast]

Looks great 👍 

[LeeB]

Is this the correct position of the pith, in a post?

Not an ideal pith placement. Those beams will likely have a tendency to bow toward the offcentered pith.

[Magicman]

No on the pith position but since you have already sawn them it can't be changed.  I am surprised that only one bowed, but sometime SYP can be forgiving.

I prefer to see the pith fairly well centered by taking side lumber off and leaving the post but of course you only get one post per log.

[WDH]

Splitting the pith in a beam leaves juvenile wood alongside one edge.  Since the wood from the juvenile core shrinks about 1% along the length and the mature wood on the other side does not shrink along the length, this differential shrinkage pulls the beam into a bowed "C" shape. 

[terrifictimbersllc]

Hey Howard, just wrap a chain tight across the tips of the loading arms for those long pieces of firewood. 

[Magicman]

It may be better that the pith is in the corner, but only time will tell?? 

The saving grace may be that they were sawn 7" for a final 6" finished post.

Since you are being the "guinea pig" Brandi, you will have to report back and let us know what they did/do.  :P

[WV Sawmiller]

TT,

   Great minds and all - I have been thinking about making a cradle out of a couple of parallel 2X6's with a couple of cross pieces (4/4 or 8/4) to hold them together, fit it between the loading arms but long enough to fit up on the mill to stop the log from falling in the opening behind the tire then use my magic hook and moveable clamp  to secure the "log" while lifting which I think is in line with what you are suggesting. I think just rolling them up on one arm and chaining them would be too unwieldy and dangerous and definitely a 2 person operation. I think my cradle would allow one person to lift and I may keep and use it for odd pieces of my own in the future.

   My mill is off site and I can't look at it to tell till tomorrow but I might could just attach (Tie the ends?) 3 or 4 parallel 5.5' 2X6 or 2X8 across the arms to close the gap. I will check that out too as an option. I might mot even need the chain/magic hook then.

    If I come up with a good fix I may have to send it to WM to offer as an option and if it makes any money they can send me some of it. :D

    It still frosts my joints the guy cut them in half.

[doc henderson]

maybe build a rack with rails the height of your mill so yo can load 4 or 5 at a time with your tractor, then roll them on one at a time.

[123maxbars]

Splitting the pith in a beam leaves juvenile wood alongside one edge.  Since the wood from the juvenile core shrinks about 1% along the length and the mature wood on the other side does not shrink along the length, this differential shrinkage pulls the beam into a bowed "C" shape.

in reference to juvenile wood @WDH is that part of the tree considered to be the first 0 to 15 years of growth? Is that the same for hardwood and softwood trees or does the number change?

[WV Sawmiller]

Doc,

  The order is not that big and almost certainly a one-off situation so not worth the time and expense to build a rack that I would never need again. I think I can build the cradle arrangement pretty simply. I saw the customer at a local store this morning and told him I sure wished he had called me first and I'd just have brought the mill over.

Nathan,

   I'm interested in Danny's reply. I understood in his reply the juvenile wood to be that closest to the bark or newest on the tree. We will all know soon when Danny answers.

[terrifictimbersllc]

I think just rolling them up on one arm and chaining them would be too unwieldy and dangerous and definitely a 2 person operation.

Not talking about one arm.  Stretch chain across the two tips of the arms, maybe twice depending on chain length.  Now have a cradle between the tube and chain, roll the log onto that.  Log is stable until it gets high enough to roll, often the gap it could fall into is closing by then.  With this arrangement can also have one end of the log on the forward arm so it cant fall in there, at 4 feet the other end is on the tire by the time it would be rolling onto mill.

[LeeB]

I'm interested in Danny's reply. I understood in his reply the juvenile wood to be that closest to the bark or newest on the tree. We will all know soon when Danny answers

Juvenile wood is the first few years growth of the tree and is around the pith. 

[WV Sawmiller]

TT,

   Thanks. I can see where you could make a strong cradle or sling that way and I'll see if I have enough chain the right sizes to do that. I am still concerned about it falling into the gap but a couple of short 2X6's laid between the mill and the chain might solve that problem.

[terrifictimbersllc]

2 x 6 laid across from the sawmill rail to the loader tube spanning that gap works pretty well too.

I carry two 5/16 inch chains 20 feet long each, plus a 15 foot 3/8 inch chain with a logrite mega hook on the end of it. A 20 foot chain has no problem making a nice cradle when needed, a couple wraps around the loader arms with its taper, chain usually stays in place where I put it. 

Best option for short logs is customer with his forklift putting them right on the mill while I stand to receive it on the other side. Usually start with a 4 x 4 fence. I sawed about 35 short logs yesterday that way. Just charging by log  scale on those little logs most 10 to 15 inches 3 to 4 feet long, beat my hourly rate.

[Ianab]

is that part of the tree considered to be the first 0 to 15 years of growth? Is that the same for hardwood and softwood trees or does the number change?

It's the first "few" years. Exact count depends on the species, and even individual trees. Could be 15 years, could be only 5, Part of the selective breeding of Radiata pine here in NZ has been to reduce the amount of juvenile wood. If you are harvesting at 25 years, then you don't want 15 years of juvenile wood in the log. Another trick is to propagate seedlings from cuttings taken from a 10 year old tree. The genetic "timing" of those seedlings is slightly different and the tree "thinks" it's older, so makes less juvenile wood. 

Also it's not a definite line where it changes, not like heartwood / sapwood you will see a well defined line. The transition is more gradual. 

Suffice to say that the first few growth rings around the pith of most logs are going to "problem" wood. If you can capture the whole mess centred inside a beam, then it wont matter, you end up with a good beam. But if one side of your beam is juvenile wood, and the other side isn't, bad things will probably happen. 

[WV Sawmiller]

TT,

   If these were at a customer site and him loading with a loader or tractor would not be too much of an issue - unless he bangs up my mill. I normally prefer they roll them up to my loader arms rather than dropping them directly on my mill. I'll check out the chain issue and see what I find with that. Part of the issue is the customer dropped these off here at my site. I will check the tally to see whether bf or hourly rate works best. I tell customers short logs are billed as hourly.


 Here are the logs on my lot. I counted 15. Sampson is checking them out.

[Magicman]

When sawing shorts I either scale them as 8' or charge hourly, my call.  I rarely have more than a couple, so it's generally scale.

I have never had that many dumped on me.  Looks more like firewood.  :

[terrifictimbersllc]

I saws what they brings me. Usually it works out. 

[doc henderson]

I do not charge, but I find the tough ones are 3 feet long by 3 feet in diameter.  easy to drop between and tough to re- position.

[WV Sawmiller]

   The only time I ever sawed Paulonia they were shorter than this but there were not but a few. I'm sure glad I invested in the extra pair of side supports when I bought my mill. Right now I wish I had another one next to the middle beside the moveable clamp.

[WDH]

The size of the juvenile core is a complex subject.  The link below contains some very good research on juvenile wood in LobLLoly pine.  Not sure if similar research has been done on hardwoods.  

https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr129.pdf

Here is an excerpt from the publication that speaks to the size of the juvenile core in LobLLoly pine:

"As noted in the definition, a juvenile core of wood is produced at all height levels in the stem. Zobel and others (1959) found that the juvenile core in nine 17-year-old lob-lolly pines was almost cylindrical. Core diameter decreased from 4.4 in. (111.8 mm) at DBH to 3.4 in. (86.4 mm) at the 45-ft (13.7-m) level. The juvenile core averaged 3.6 in. (91.4 mm) in diameter in a larger sample of 670 trees. The amount of juvenile wood in a loblolly pine tree on a volume basis decreased from 85% at age 15 to 55% at age 25 and then to 19% at age 40 (Zobel and others 1972). That is, the older and larger the tree, the lower the volume of juvenile wood even though the size of the juvenile core remains unchanged. Obviously, all these values will vary according to growing conditions of the trees, but they do provide work-ing estimates. According to Franklin (1987), variations in the amount of taper of the juvenile core with height in the tree are insufficient to materially affect sawtimber values"


So, a rough rule of thumb in southern yellow pine would be that the first 4" to 5" of diameter growth around the pith is predominantly juvenile wood.  Interestingly, when quartersawing using the RRRQS technique (Robert's Reverse Roll Quartersawing technique), I have found that if you center the blade on the pith and move the sawhead up 2.5" to take the first cut on the log after you have created the octagon, then take the second cut 2.5" below the pith to remove the two wide center quartersawn 9/4 slabs (or you take two 4/4 cuts above the pith and two 4/4 cuts below the pith, same thing, just 4 thinner boards versus two thicker boards), and then take the top and bottom resulting cants and reverse roll quarter them, there is very little side bend in the reverse roll quartersawn boards.  This means that moving up the 2.5" above the pith and then down 2.5", which is the equivalent of 5" total, removes the vast majority of the juvenile wood and places it in the center of the wide cut center boards where it cannot misbehave so badly from a crook/bow standpoint.  So, from my experience quartersawing both pine and hardwoods (white oak, red oak, and sycamore), assuming that the juvenile core is about 5" in diameter is a pretty good assumption in practical terms.

[Magicman]

Since Brandi's log did not "banana" when she sawed her post it will be interesting to see what happens with them.  With the pith being in a corner instead of on a side, there may be enough "strong" wood on the diagonal to tame/overpower the juvenile wood. 

As I indicated in Reply #1880, I want to know what happens and that 1" oversize may be enough to save them.  :P

[TimW]

Since Brandi's log did not "banana" when she sawed her post it will be interesting to see what happens with them.  With the pith being in a corner instead of on a side, there may be enough "strong" wood on the diagonal to tame/overpower the juvenile wood.  

As I indicated in Reply #1880, I want to know what happens and that 1" oversize may be enough to save them.  :P

............or make them 4x4s.  These two just came out this way from an older tree.  The outer portions of the log were rotten.  I have been centering the pith, but got confused from somewhere or someone and must have slept since then and of coarse it was right at quitting time.
hugs,  Brandi

[WV Sawmiller]

   I went back over and finished sawing for my next order today. We sawed about 1074 bf today. Over the last 4 days we have sawed 6339 bf. 1600 bf of this is going to another customer who called and placed his order the first day I was sawing at this site, this customer told me he had excess logs/lumber he'd like to sell, the customer picking up this order called that first night of sawing and placed his order, paid me Saturday and will pick it up tomorrow morning. The stars just aligned for all three of us in this case. I have high hopes this new arrangement for log supply will work well for me and my customers. 


80 1X6X12 in front, 40 2X6X10 behind. 

 40- 2X6X12. Not shown 8-6X6X10

[TimW]

Since Brandi's log did not "banana" when she sawed her post it will be interesting to see what happens with them.  With the pith being in a corner instead of on a side, there may be enough "strong" wood on the diagonal to tame/overpower the juvenile wood.  

As I indicated in Reply #1880, I want to know what happens and that 1" oversize may be enough to save them.  :P

Lynn,
      I'll let Y'all know ASAP.  The 1 inch is what I am counting on.  Actually, for the post plastic sleeves, I will have to plane it down to 5 & 11/16th inch to fit inside the protector.  So an inch and 5/16th to play with.  
After I have planed them to fit, I will soak them in Copper Naphthenate diluted with diesel.  Then wiggle them into plastic sleeves from plasticsleeves.com.  Guess I need to start a thread on this, as these posts will be for my sawmill shed.
  hugs,  Brandi