Norse/Igland or Farmi/Wallenstein style?

[wisconsitom]

Thanks Mike.  Igland actually already do have swivelling lower pulley, which to my eyeballs looks like may be at nearly same height as other make's uppers.  Maybe that's the idea with these-always loop thru lower.  Shoulda asked thecfarm if that's what he does.

Probably just me overthinking things again.

One thing's for sure.... nobody's got any winches in stock, at least in size class I want.  Nothing out there, from Massachusetts to Colorado....nothing.  red, orange, yellow, gray...nothing.  Not even any idea when...

[mike_belben]

But theres 300 electric winches within 50 miles for the cost of shipping the PTO model.  The winch you can get is better than the one you cant. Log market wont wait long. 

[Corley5]

Look into Fransgard winches.  We've got a V4000.  It's been a good machine.  Haven't used it in a long time but we've got it.  

[wisconsitom]

Thanks Corley5.  These days, Fransgard is the brand with the Cadillac pricing scheme I've noticed.  Much higher than all the others I've looked at.  I haven't looked at Wally's either, thinking they too seem to need more $$ for their product, or at least more than I care to spend.

Put myself on a no-risk waiting list for a yellow one...no big expectations that I'll hear anything tho!

[thecfarm]

I pulled at a sharp angle once, and only once.
Was not like what mike is saying. Tractor was up on 2 wheels sideways!!!!! I released that rope and tractor came crashing down and I mean crashing. I was watching the tree, not the tractor. Lesson learned, watch tractor and the twitch. Tree came up against a root and I kept pulling on the rope.    
I have never unhooked the lower pulley, it's there for a reason. I never had no reason to unhook it.
But I did have to weld a piece of flat stock under my arms so they would not bend. Those 3 foot pines and bigger are hard on a tractor. That flat stock was an inch through 3 inches across and went from the eyehook and as far back as I could go. never bent again.  ;)

[47sawdust]

My head is mounted on a swivel when winching back to the tractor.
Especially true with the wireless remote.
No place to be day dreaming.
Tractor/log/tractor....repeat

[wisconsitom]

Ray do you pull in from lower pulley?  Seems like on Norse/Igland maybe that's the intent.  Don't look too bad a height to winch from.

Maybe by next year I'll find something.🤷

[thecfarm]

This is how mine is set up. I never change it.



 






This picture shows where I could lower the pulley, but never have. It's beside the slides.
The cable is draped over the top of the pulley so it does not fall down and drag behind the tractor. I don't dog it in, unless I have logs behind me.  
You said something about the height of the pulley, that would be the mast.
That is why we got the Norse. Some of the others have a low mast. We had 3 foot pine and some even 4 feet to get out. Some of the winches would not get those 4 foot ones too far off the ground.

[wisconsitom]

Got it.  Looks like a good setup.  Thanks.

[John Mc]

I pulled at a sharp angle once, and only once.
Was not like what mike is saying. Tractor was up on 2 wheels sideways!!!!! I released that rope and tractor came crashing down and I mean crashing. I was watching the tree, not the tractor. Lesson learned, watch tractor and the twitch. Tree came up against a root and I kept pulling on the rope.    
I have never unhooked the lower pulley, it's there for a reason. I never had no reason to unhook it.
But I did have to weld a piece of flat stock under my arms so they would not bend. Those 3 foot pines and bigger are hard on a tractor. That flat stock was an inch through 3 inches across and went from the eyehook and as far back as I could go. never bent again.  ;)

I've had my Uniforest 35E winch for about 15 years. When I first got my winch, I would pull at some significant angles, but generally only for lighter pulls. I was fortunate not to bend anything, since it's not just the weight of the log that is a concern: even a light log can put a heck of a strain on your system when it hangs up on something while pulling. It was probably reading about your mishap that made me rethink my approach. (One of those rare occasions when I was able to learn from someone else's mishap, rather than having to make the same mistake myself. Thank you for sharing that all those years ago, thecfarm.) The manual calls for pulling within 30˚ to either side of straight back. ( It's generally not the winch that will get damaged from pulling at too large an angle, it's the tractor.) If my pull is outside of that range, I either re-aim the tractor or set a snatch block to redirect the pull.
I pull off of either the upper or lower block, depending on the situation. Both of my blocks swivel. I was surprised to learn from this thread that some makes/models have upper blocks that are fixed. If my upper block did not swivel, I would limit what angles I pulled from that even further. How much I would limit it depends on the design of the pulley and how the cable is riding in it.

[mike_belben]

Its very cheap and easy to put a fixed pulley and quite a pain to make a good swivel design where the cable doesnt ever get outside the pulleys trough and wreck inself getting torn between the pulley and the plates that capture it like your typical 4 roller chinese winch fairlead loves to occasionally do.  Wrecking cable and jamming in there torch tight. 


Adding a swivel guide rig to a winch not made for it could require a large redesign in some cases so its worth some money to get one that is proven perfect at the manufacturers R&D expense instead of yours.  My hodgepodge winch is built in such a way that id have to start over to add that afterthought on because, well.. Afterthought.  Maybe version 2.0 can have that.


So if youre gonna buy a pto winch with fixed top pulley you better make sure it is significantly cheaper than the option to have top and bottom swivel guides. There is a very large intrinsic value to having them and large cost to forego.


  A fixed pulley better be steel, it better have real tall side flanges of significant beef to not break off, be captured in stout steel plate tabs that wont spread apart from sidepull, and not have the space in between for the cable to jump out of the pulley and get jammed beside the pulley. The pulley should not float on a pin side to side. 


Remember that an ag governor just gives more fuel when it sees load.  When anything goes wrong with PTO winching the system is geared toward self destruction. It takes the operators full focus to prevent this. Not snagging the log is half the program.  Not having the cable disobey its guiding devices is another. 

[thecfarm]

Just so all will know, when I had the tractor up on 2 wheels that was only a 6 inch tree at the most. The weight did not cause the mishap, when it got hung up on the root was the problem.
That was why I was at a bad angle. I thought, this will be easy. First problem was I was thinking. ;D
When pulling out logs 3 feet and over, care must be taken to place the tractor correctly.
As I stated I have never had no problems with the fixed pulley on top. This winch has seen a lot of action too. 
I would not be concerned about the fixed top pulley. 
My winch stays on the back of my tractor. I use that winch 4-5 times a week in the summer time. Maybe only once a week in the winter time, depends on snow. Summer months that winch is being used.
Even though I just do firewood with it, I think it's being used more now. It's just smaller wood now. 
I twitch out a lot of wood 6 inches across now. That is why I made up the short chains, 4 feet long. Much easier to pull 2 feet through a key hole than 4 feet.

[mike_belben]

As I stated I have never had no problems with the fixed pulley on top. This winch has seen a lot of action too.
I would not be concerned about the fixed top pulley.

How would you know if you are pulling through the lower swivel pulley and said yourself you never change it?  

[mudfarmer]

That lower pulley is way above where some others are. My Farmi and the (??)Fransguard? I have used, top pulley is where thecfarm's is, but low pulley is way down at 3pt lift arm level. On mine that is just at/below the chain slots.

[thecfarm]

 A fixed pulley better be steel, it better have real tall side flanges of significant beef to not break off, be captured in stout steel plate tabs that wont spread apart from sidepull, and not have the space in between for the cable to jump out of the pulley and get jammed beside the pulley. The pulley should not float on a pin side to side.

Mike, because I have never had any of the problems that you said a fixed pulley have.
If it ain't broke, why fix it. 
Winch is set up with the lower pulley, why take it off.  ???

[mike_belben]

You are missing my point entirely ray.

I am describing a potential problem with someone buying a budget 3point winch that only has one fixed top pulley.  If youve spent all your years using yours as pictured then you have not gotten any data on the issues im describing.  Your winch is far better because of the swivel guide.

I built my swing boom cable jammer log loader with a fixed pulley and after 1 trial i cut it off and had to build a complicated swivel pulley with floating guide because ANY cable angle into the fixed pulley caused it to jump the high flanges and jam into the capture plates.  Think about it.

The pulley needs to be able to follow the cable or be designed really well not to be a catstrophe.   Roller fairleads on trucks have been the same for decades and everyone assumes they work great.  Reality is they jam in the corner, wreck cables and get twisted up. Thats why people in the know buy hawses instead of rollers.

[wisconsitom]

So, as a key contributor to this ruckus, let me state that A). I find the Norse/Igland unit to be high on my list for among other reasons, somewhat greater affordability than some other lines, and that B) these winches swivelling "lower" pulley does appear-on further review-to be at roughly same height as upper units of many other make's, and C) I'll bet-and thecfarm may be able to confirm this, that the normal way these particular units are used is via that swivelling so-called lower pulley.  Seems like what a guy would do.

Maybe I'm wrong.  

Ray, would you mind furnishing total height of your winch?  I've got another consideration, I can't exceed about 75 inches total tractor/attachment height or I'll have to also build a new shed.  Specs for that little guy I'd like states just 52 inches.  I can't believe that's right.  Yours is different model, but may offer clues.  Thanks again.

[thecfarm]

Mine is no higher than the Rops on my tractor. Just about to head out the door, measurement later.
Or go to my gallery and check out Rays logging. All the pictures have been used in other posts.

[mike_belben]

A swivel is wonderful.  

A high pull is wonderful but not too much angle.  

A higher pull is more wonderful, but only straight or with guywires as in a stationary mini yarder. 

To be clear i cant comment on any brands or models, just shapes and forces and ways one can glue metal.  I dont shop or read reviews.  I build and rebuild my own machines based on sketches from collections of iron images in my phone, and give "avoid this" opinions based on what i had to scrap. 

[wisconsitom]

Thanks Ray.  I gotta be no higher than rops folded down.  Heh, folding butt plate maybe get a guy there?  I'll check your gallery stuff.

[mike_belben]

Folding butt plates will help you go forward over stumps and hurt you going backward over them unless it is hydraulic or pinnable.  

On thing is certain. You want the buttplate cutter edge to engage the ground and park the machine enough to winch with the brakes off. 

[petefrom bearswamp]

Both pulleys  swivel on the Farmi.
I pull 99 percent with the top pulley, even at 90 degrees.
I am very careful with observing the log and the tractor.
I always stand  on the side opposite the log.
I have raised the tractor more than once, but only barely off the ground.
Engine always at idle so slow pull gives good reaction time.
Ray I dont have any trees any where near 3' in diameter, my largest is about 24", so I do use the slots a lot.
IMO using the top pulley tends to raise the log somewhat helping with the twitch.

[mudfarmer]

Both pulleys  swivel on the Farmi.
I pull 99 percent with the top pulley, even at 90 degrees.
I am very careful with observing the log and the tractor.
I always stand  on the side opposite the log.
I have raised the tractor more than once, but only barely off the ground.
Engine always at idle so slow pull gives good reaction time.
Ray I dont have any trees any where near 3' in diameter, my largest is about 24", so I do use the slots a lot.
IMO using the top pulley tends to raise the log somewhat helping with the twitch.

Both pulleys  swivel on the Farmi.
I pull 99 percent with the top pulley, even at 90 degrees.
I am very careful with observing the log and the tractor.
I always stand  on the side opposite the log.
I have raised the tractor more than once, but only barely off the ground.
Engine always at idle so slow pull gives good reaction time.
Ray I dont have any trees any where near 3' in diameter, my largest is about 24", so I do use the slots a lot.
IMO using the top pulley tends to raise the log somewhat helping with the twitch.

Your tractor is much bigger than mine. I too usually winch at idle but twice now have stalled the tractor and had it start back up in reverse rotation (oil pump no pump). Now if I think it will hang or pull hard I crank the throttle up a bit... Just something for folks to be aware of.

[wisconsitom]

Thanks Mike.  My terrain is mostly easy.  My vision is that I may often be able to park for winching on decent grass lanes.  Mainly in sections of my property where we've planted trees in more or less rows, taking into account we did follow land contours, and we were novices on that county tree planter and didn't necessarily lay everything out in a perfect grid.  But what I'm guessing is that it may be possible to take out whole rows from just one or two stations.

Later I might be down in the swamp logging a bit.  Total different story there-downed timber, wet springs, stumps ..but no plans or need at this time.  It's "cedar swamp" and I love it just the way it is.  Probably never need the winch in there.

I was only speculating on that hinged plate due to low clearance of my shed overhead door. I gotta work with what I've already got, each piece must work with all the rest.  

If I had the mechanical aptitude that was in the fingernails you clipped last week, we wouldn't even need this thread!  

Also true-there isn't any of what I'm after anywhere in N. America anyway!  We're just talking.😏

[Corley5]

  At the time of purchase the dealer also sold Farmis and the Fransgard was a bit cheaper and in stock .  We bought it new in Dec. of 97 and cut 45,000 bdft of sugar maple saw timber off the farms with it on our 180 MF during that winter.  The top pulley on the V4000 Fransgard swivels.  We NEVER used the lower pulley, and always pull directly off the cable never using the notches for the choker in the butt plate.    We used it to log some red pine to build a barn from the sugar maple dollars and used it in a friend's cedar swamp a few winters on his Kubota.  It's still at his place.  Maybe I'll go get it one of these days or cut some more cedar with him
 Whatever machine you purchase figure its limitations out early on
 
 Fransguard 4000 in Forestry and Logging (forestryforum.com)