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Author Topic: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?  (Read 4484 times)

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Online Satamax

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Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« on: June 25, 2020, 05:00:10 PM »
Hi everybody.

I could really do with the help of some kind soul.

I have bought this



The ubiquitous gearmatic 19.

I know that i will have to do some work on it.

But there is something i really want to do. Is to remote control it.

I have plenty of ideas for this. From the most common, to the wildest ones.

But there is one thing i need to know, that i don't!  

How much pressure the brake and clutch cylinders can cope with?

If some good guy in the know how, could tell me. That would be wonderful.

That way, i will be able to flog my X710C master control on fleabay or else.

Thanks a lot guys.

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2020, 05:10:24 AM »
Guys. Another question.

On Pdhx20's pic below.

Is the brake's band top mount fixed? Or the bottom one, may be?

Thanks guys.

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2020, 08:56:29 AM »
 

 

 The small band is fixed to the inner band at the top, the lower connection goes to the control rod. The large band is fixed at the top.
Ed K

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2020, 11:37:34 AM »
the brake band is the one on the outside and it is released to free spool, the ones on the inside are the clutches they rotate constantly then when they are engaged it turns the drum and pull the cable in I have a pic of the controller in my galley , the pressure is about the same as the old hydrolic brakes on a car 

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2020, 09:42:40 AM »

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
 

 The small band is fixed to the inner band at the top, the lower connection goes to the control rod. The large band is fixed at the top.
Ok, with the  drawing from the manual, i get it. Vaguely. 
 
I wonder, why two bands? I get that the small one pulls on the big one. I wonder also about 15 and 16 "rods" They're pinned in the center, Are these levering, from say, the housing? This all seems overly complicated no? I feel like there should be a spring somewhere to tighten the brake, as this seems a "release" mechanism? With the actuating rod, placed where it is. It could be easily replaced with a small hydraulic cylinder (i keep wanting to use 'ram' instead)  
the brake band is the one on the outside and it is released to free spool, the ones on the inside are the clutches they rotate constantly then when they are engaged it turns the drum and pull the cable in I have a pic of the controller in my galley , the pressure is about the same as the old hydrolic brakes on a car


Garry Davis, thanks a lot. i have the manual, and i had sussed that the outer bands were the brake :D But not how these work. You're saying that 30 bars should be a safe pressure to work with? I have a "frozen" x710c. But i would rather avoid using it. Hydraulics are way cleverer in my idea. I went to see your gallery. That winch is well rusted! 
Thanks again guys. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2020, 10:14:32 AM »
Ok, i understand a bit better. Those "rods" or levers, are tucked into the winch casing, and act as travel dividers or multipliers. 

Lever 16 is pushed in it's "center" by the brake rod. So it's end travels a bit more.  Thought, reducing the force. 

Lever 15 is pulled by the thin band, at it's end, so that travels a bit more, and the "center" less. But that's applying more force on the wide band. I guess, that's the one which gets stuck all the time. 

I'm thinking, ditch all this, and replace by one of those. 

http://www.ic-direct.co.uk/pages/Products/hyd_cylinders.htm

I can have over a thousand pound with the tiniest one, at 150 bar. 

 

 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2020, 08:59:13 AM »
 Here's some picts of my manual it's an older winch than what your showing.
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2020, 09:33:52 AM »
 Had trouble will try again.


 


 


 


 
#11 is the spring you refer to,it puts pressure on the band to hold cable. #3 is where you could put a piston to release the pressure to get cable to free spool.
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2020, 12:05:25 PM »
Ed, sorry but i can't see a single number. Which manual is this? 8, 9? 
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2020, 12:44:05 PM »
Ed, you mean spring #22? 

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2020, 04:46:40 PM »
I am asking myself, do i mod the brakes as hydraulic open? Or hydraulic close? 

Anybody has a theory about the two brake bands? 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2020, 07:21:22 PM »
the smaller one probably helps  tightens the bigger one , you will probably need to get your controller working to make it work right its probably not froze just need pulled apart and cleaned

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2020, 02:48:59 AM »
the smaller one probably helps  tightens the bigger one , you will probably need to get your controller working to make it work right its probably not froze just need pulled apart and cleaned
Thanks a lot Gary Davis. 
The small band pulls on the big one via a lever.  The thing is, i wonder why. I might have an idea, it's made like this, so the freespool is still rubbing a tad. So the drum doesn't empty itself on the lightest of pull. But i can't confirm this. 
If i can, i would rather avoid using the master control. I really want to remote control the winch. And since those gearmatic winches are often troublesome, i thought modding one could be a clever idea. Often it's the brake being stuck after resting. And the brake rests closed. That gives me the idea, that positive action for braking should be used. When the winch is not in use, the brake is open.  
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2020, 12:13:35 PM »
 The only thing the master controller does is to take the pressure of the bands so it free wheels. There's a set screw in the main housing above the large brake band that you adjust to keep from birdnesting.
 Yes 22 is the spring that pushes the band closed. #3 is where you would put a small piston to release the tension.
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2020, 04:14:56 PM »
Thanks a lot Ed K. 

Really, i think i will modify it. Big band for braking, small band for avoiding bird nesting. Or something along those lines. 

How much can i gather, if i was to put the x710c onto fleabay do you think? 

I was checking the price of electro hydraulic distributors. Prices are dear! 

Thanks a lot for the help. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2020, 04:49:52 PM »
 Look up(www.surplus supply.com/hydraulics) I went thru their catalog but I'm not smart enough to figure out what components go together to make up what you need.
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2020, 10:08:56 PM »
Thanks a lot Ed. Well, i might already have some of what i need. I need to scrape paint! To identify what it is. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2020, 08:24:47 AM »
I just think of the small bands as providing leverage to the big bands to apply enough force to either winch in, or brake. The force created by the hand operated remote controller or the brake spring (#22) simply activates the lever using the winchs' own rotational force.

The set screw on top of the housing that Ed mentions should have a small spring under it, which pushes on the brake band creating a slight drag on the drum (adjustable) to prevent bird nesting.  
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2020, 08:31:31 AM »
Lots of people seem to dislike the Gearmatic winch, and I understand why. When I got mine it was not working, I replaced what needed replacing and it has worked very well for me, as a hobby machine.
Just going by what I've read on this forum over the last few years and what I saw with my own winch, I think the first thing I would modify on it is adding a "live swivel".
Guys on here have done it, I have not, but if I ever start leaking brake fluid in there I think I will do that.

**I am not a Gearmatic specialist
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2020, 08:47:22 AM »
 Oliver, in reply #1 see how Satamax's winch has the swivel, and on #2 mine has the pipe sticking out? I retapped to 1/4 npt put the pipe in then drilled a hole in the cover for the pipe to stick out. That way I could use a swivel that cost around $70. compared to $325. :o.
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2020, 09:02:41 AM »
Oh, sorry, I missed that. That is what I will do if mine ever gives me trouble.
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2020, 11:09:53 PM »
I just think of the small bands as providing leverage to the big bands to apply enough force to either winch in, or brake. The force created by the hand operated remote controller or the brake spring (#22) simply activates the lever using the winchs' own rotational force.

The set screw on top of the housing that Ed mentions should have a small spring under it, which pushes on the brake band creating a slight drag on the drum (adjustable) to prevent bird nesting.  
Thanks a lot guys. For all of your replies. 
62Oliver, i don't quite get what you are saying there. You mean, that when  one pulls on the cable, the drum goes back slightly, and locks the brake further? 
Thanks again. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2020, 10:38:18 AM »
Thanks a lot guys. For all of your replies.  62Oliver, i don't quite get what you are saying there. You mean, that when  one pulls on the cable, the drum goes back slightly, and locks the brake further?  Thanks again. 


Are you referring to "bird nesting"? On top of the winch there is a set screw as Ed mentioned, under that screw should be a small spring that pushes on the brake band (pretty sure the wide band), the brake band then rubs on the drum causing a slight drag which prevents the drum from free spooling when you pull the cable out. The amount of drag can be adjusted by turning the set screw in or out. Hope that helps.
To my mind converting a gearmatic to operate remotely would be a big undertaking. I wouldn't get rid of that remote too quickly.
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2020, 12:25:27 PM »
I just think of the small bands as providing leverage to the big bands to apply enough force to either winch in, or brake. The force created by the hand operated remote controller or the brake spring (#22) simply activates the lever using the winchs' own rotational force.

The set screw on top of the housing that Ed mentions should have a small spring under it, which pushes on the brake band creating a slight drag on the drum (adjustable) to prevent bird nesting.  
62Oliver, i was referring to this post of yours. I think i understand re reading this. 

Basically what you're saying, is that the spring keeps the band rubbing slightly on the drum, and when you pull the cable by hand, it rubs a smidge more due to the friction on the drum tightening slightly the brake. 

I thought you were saying that the brake was locking tighter when a log was attached at the back and pulled forward by the tractor, with the lever in the brake position. 

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2020, 02:39:19 PM »
 All the spring does is push down on the top of the big band to rub on the drum enough to keep pressure so the cable doesn't pull out faster than you want it to.
 The long spring #22 is what pressures the small band to turn and put pressure on the big band and lock the drum from moving while your pulling a log or 8 (cordwood) ;D.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2020, 05:01:56 PM »
Thanks Ed K. 

I really don't like this system. I think it's better to apply pressure on the brakes when needed. Mind you, spring loaded brakes are all over in my other job, running a chairlift. 

And that's a safety feature. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2020, 12:21:14 PM »
So, i have ordered the sprocket, and splined sleeve.  Tried this morning to move the drum and the input shaft by hand. It's all locked. Normal, there is no pressure to open the brake. Well. It might not be full of oil then.  ;D

Which wrenches and sockets do I need to work on this winch? Allen keys? 

@Pdhx20 


If ever you see this. What is the Parker swivel you used?  The thread in the clutch swivel's plate is the right one? Or will I have to buy a set of taps for this? 

Thanks a lot to you all guys.  
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2020, 09:14:37 AM »
 I retap'd mine to 1/4 npt.
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2020, 01:58:02 PM »
Hi everybody. 

Am I mistaken, or the backplate adapter has a big bulge at the input shaft, compared to usual gearmatic 19 winches? I know the can car type, with the bolted ring. But I don't recall seeing that much of a cone on

 other19 winches. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2020, 10:19:55 PM »
If youre gonna tap anything for hydraulic i suggest SAE O ring, its just a straight tap and hit the top with any countersink to make space for the Oring to crowd into.  If you MUST use NPT, be sure to come off with a straight JIC fitting and not an angled one.  NPT to a 90* elbow is always a recipe for too tight, too loose or not clocked right.  With a straight NPT to JIC you can tighten the right amount then clock perfect with the JIC 90.
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2020, 04:12:24 PM »
Given it a try with an hydraulic handpump. Brake opens and doesn't leak. Or at least doesn't seem to. The clutch seems to lock too. Doesn't seem to leak either.tomorow, I'll try something else, with an electrohydraulic pump that I have. 
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2020, 07:58:33 PM »
So, i have ordered the sprocket, and splined sleeve.  Tried this morning to move the drum and the input shaft by hand. It's all locked. Normal, there is no pressure to open the brake. Well. It might not be full of oil then.  ;D.

Which wrenches and sockets do I need to work on this winch? Allen keys?

@Pdhx20


If ever you see this. What is the Parker swivel you used?  The thread in the clutch swivel's plate is the right one? Or will I have to buy a set of taps for this?

Thanks a lot to you all guys.  

Sorry, Just saw this, that's the smallest Parker live swivel (1/4" NPT). Bought it surplus on Ebay for $25. Works perfectly but I did have to bore & tap a hole in the outer cover for a 2" pipe nipple & cap to allow it to clear. Despite what everyone says about Gearmatics, I'm happy with mine. I'm a novice but I did a really thorough job of cleaning up and lubing (never-seize) every single part, and priming and painting where appropriate. Even when it sits for 6 months, I move the master control lever and it freespools like a dream and winches in like a beast. I must have pulled 5 gallons of rust and gunk out of the band side before I even found the rods & springs !
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2020, 12:03:12 AM »
Ok, thanks a lot pdxh20. 

Five gallons of rust? That's a lot!  I think I will hydraulicize the brake side. With a tiny cylinder, for more travel. that way, I'll be sure of the brake opening every time. For the few weeks to come, project is on hold. I'm too busy working the day job.  
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2020, 08:05:17 AM »
 If you go to far with the length of stroke, part of the outside band will contact the outside casting and make the band drag on the drum. Then it won't free spool.
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2020, 05:01:22 AM »
Guys, do I need to remove the round plate with the four Allen screws, before removing the cover plate on the clutch side? 



 
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2020, 07:22:18 AM »
 No the cover plate will slide off over the pressure plate.
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2020, 07:29:11 AM »
Thanks a lot Ed_K. 
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2020, 10:30:12 PM »
All open. Bands are good. I'll have to check the hydraulics. 

But the bearing is dead frozen. 



 
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2020, 10:52:01 PM »
Anybody can tell me the bearing model? 

Thanks! 
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2020, 08:42:29 AM »
 The bearing part # is 50792. But I had the auto store measure up the old one and order it. Was $107.00 . Do you have a book on the winch? In the clutch assembly item # 1, part # 51626 is a lever arm, while your in there make sure this moves freely. It'll make life a lot easier when your pulling the cable out.
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2020, 09:07:08 AM »
Thanks a lot Ed. I'll check that. 


I have the manual and part reference for the winch. 
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2020, 09:12:04 AM »
With the reference you gave me, i get the bearing's dimensions. That's weird, a metric bearing in a US product! :D 

https://forestryparts.com/bearinggearmaticwinch50792.aspx

The bolts are definitely not metric! 
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2020, 04:14:18 AM »
Guys, how do you remove the hydraulic "swivel" 



The little aluminium part. It doesn't turn. And i can't remove the last allen head screw. 

Any idea? 
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2020, 06:54:12 AM »
 I had to get a allen wrench socket type. I put it on the screw and hit it with a hammer couple times then used the impact driver to get it loose.
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2020, 07:22:12 AM »
Put a round punch [chisel, drift pin type tool] that is smaller than the hex wrench, into the socket head and beat the thing pretty good like driving a nail in deeper.

  Alternate with heat, penetrant and punch blows until it breaks loose but be very careful that your punch isnt mushing the hex face.  If the hex gets ruined you can either grind a larger size sacrificial hex tool with a taper and hammer that in, or the same with a suitable torx tool and try again.  Anything that will bite the socket head.  Welding or brazing the tool to the allen head fastener is an option if there is no other choice and it wont harm the rest of the assembly.  But i rarely fail to get one out prior to that.  Drilling allen bolts isnt fun by hand.. Theyre pretty hard.
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2020, 07:22:38 AM »
Thanks a lot Ed. 

I've  put a pair of vice grips on the aluminium thingy, poured some WD40 on the bearing holding the thingy, and managed to budge it, so it freed the allen head, and i could remove the last screw. Now, i think i'll have to borrow a bearing "extractor", is that the right word? Because i have nothing of that size. 
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #46 on: November 30, 2020, 07:26:30 AM »
Put a round punch [chisel, drift pin type tool] that is smaller than the hex wrench, into the socket head and beat the thing pretty good like driving a nail in deeper.

  Alternate with heat, penetrant and punch blows until it breaks loose but be very careful that your punch isnt mushing the hex face.  If the hex gets ruined you can either grind a larger size sacrificial hex tool with a taper and hammer that in, or the same with a suitable torx tool and try again.  Anything that will bite the socket head.  Welding or brazing the tool to the allen head fastener is an option if there is no other choice and it wont harm the rest of the assembly.  But i rarely fail to get one out prior to that.  Drilling allen bolts isnt fun by hand.. Theyre pretty hard.
Mike, that was not the allen head screw, giving me trouble. But the L shaped  hydraulic coupling attached to the swivel thingy, which was covering the allen head screw. They all came appart pretty nice. But the swivel. I think i'l have to press it out that swivel.  
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2020, 07:29:24 AM »
Gotcha, i guess i was looking at the wrong part.

"extractor" is more commonly used to describe tapered tools that are pounded into a hole you drill in a broken bolt for removal.


I think youre wanting a bearing "puller" or "jaw puller."   They come in 2 jaw, 3 jaw, 4 jaw, flange, internal bore style, steering pump collet etc etc.  
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2020, 07:32:13 AM »
I am wondering what to do bearing wise. Go expensive, go cheap? I have all options between 20$ and a hundred. 
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2020, 07:35:50 AM »
Not chinese. 
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #50 on: November 30, 2020, 07:43:39 AM »
Well, i guess!  

I don't think i'll go for SKF, but FAG if i can find it, or NHK/RHP. 
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #51 on: November 30, 2020, 02:41:40 PM »
All pulled out.



 

So the little bearing of the swivel is 30x10 by 9mm thickness. 6200-2rs big bearing is 6216-2RS 140 x 80 x 26mm 

To push the little bearing, a split 10mm piece of aluminium, pushed by a 5mm nail. As per the picture above. Pretty easy. 

I don't have the part type or number for the "oil seal" 
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #52 on: November 30, 2020, 03:08:23 PM »
 On mine I driled the plate to 1/4 NPT drill size and taped it. Then I could use a standard 1/4 swivel. Much cheaper I think I paid $70.
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #53 on: November 30, 2020, 03:15:53 PM »
Thanks a lot Ed. But i think i have all the parts,the little bearing costs 4 dolls. SKF even. I pushed the aluminium swivel out with the drill press. The gland cap will be cleaned with my lathe. 

Besides the little and big bearings, all i need is the gland cap oil seal. 

I could change all the system if i was sure it would be better than the original. Otherwise, i don't see the need for it. 
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #54 on: December 02, 2020, 09:13:13 AM »
Found the dimensions of the seal for the gland cap. 127mm X 101.6 mm, 12mm thickness. 4"X5" X 1/2 in your metrics.  ;D
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2021, 06:05:36 AM »
Guys, if i'm not talking gibberish. 


The hydraulic valve for the winch should look like this? 




Left drawer brake

right drawer clutch

Center, neutral. 

Or am i missing something? 
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2021, 07:06:02 AM »
 I'm not sure what your looking for? Are you looking to hook up A hydro line?

 

 

 This is where the pressure goes in for the clutch.

 

 

 This is the master control for both the clutch and the brake.

 
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2021, 07:42:57 AM »
Max, that is a pretty basic 3 position double acting spool valve with what we typically call a "motor center" in america because it can wind down by the bridge connection on A/B when centered.. Vs a cylinder center which locks to hold and will try to stop a spinning motor, often shearing something.  



I dont know the mechanical workings of forestry winches well enough to comment on if it'll work for those.  I wish i had a few junk ones here to dissect.  
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2021, 08:09:25 AM »
Hi guys. Thanks for the reply. What i'm tying to do. Is to pilot the winch with small hydraulics. 

Clutch needs pressure to engage. 

Brake needs pressure to brake. 

Both shouldn't be activated at the same time. and pressure released from the small cylinder, when the other one is pressurized. 
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2021, 08:14:03 AM »
How many psi?
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2021, 09:10:19 AM »
No clue, sorry.
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2021, 10:42:25 AM »
Sorry but I'm not following what your trying to do cause I'm not that smart. You need pressure to winch in and release . No pressure on brake or hold . The bands do that. If you can stay with the brake fluid setup cause the hyd. Oil set up cost alot more for parts and I mean alot more . The 1 valve on the release side in almost a $1,000 now 

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2021, 01:26:57 PM »
Sorry ehp, I don't quite get what you're saying.

No pressure to brake?  How would you pull the cable if that's the case?

The x701 master control locks in the open brake position?

I've worked a bit on it tonight. Turned the joint race back to clean.  The oil seal holds on it. Enough to be airtight, I would say.  

 

 

 
I ground down to 1200 grit with a DMT stone. Then polished  with a strop and polishing compound. That will be good enough. 

 
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2021, 01:38:29 PM »
On the winch subframe side. I have scavenged this beam. 



It's 1cm thick, or a smidge more. More than 3/8" 8" X 5" or thereabouts. 

I'm asking myself the question. Do I go the extent to turn it into an hydraulic tank? With all the holes I have to drill in it. 

That would be a pain,  but I would have a 15 gallon low profile tank. 
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2021, 01:55:02 PM »
it needs pressure to release not to brake , when you push for release the pressure shoves down and opens the 2 hold bands that are on the out side of the drum, when you want the bands to hold you take the pressure away so there is no pressure on the hold bands so they can hold the drum 

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2021, 02:06:50 PM »
it needs pressure to release not to brake , when you push for release the pressure shoves down and opens the 2 hold bands that are on the out side of the drum, when you want the bands to hold you take the pressure away so there is no pressure on the hold bands so they can hold the drum
Well, i remember the spring on the brake. But that seems very counter intuitive to me, as the two master cylinders on the "master control" need to both open the brake, and clutch the drum to winch. 
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2021, 05:17:36 PM »
So, I went back to the workshop. 

Fitted the bearing.which seems to be a smidge wide. There is a pile of non original looking washers. That bugs me.  There is play laterally between the bearing retainer's stub, which has the O ring.. and there seems to be a recess on the edge of that well. For may be another O ring.  I'm really thinking about turning the bearing retainer to the proper size to fit the bearing.  And be hydraulic pressure proof.  I also opened the brake, using a hand pump. And forced the clutch to stick with a screwdriver. I can winch in by hand.  And I managed, after forcing the second band to open, with a big screwdriver ;  to pull cable by hand.  Any advice on how to grease or oil the brake mechanism and pins. Without ruining the bands?   First brake band is de glued  or de riveted at one end. 



 

 

 

 

 

 
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2021, 06:27:53 PM »
And for hydraulic control, i need this then.  Left drawer, Brake opening. Center one brake on. Right drawer, brake and clutch actuated. I wonder how do i keep a low pressure in that circuit? And have a separate higher pressure circuit for cylinders. Double pump? Or does low pressure dividers exist? 



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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #68 on: March 05, 2021, 09:49:52 AM »
 In your second picture those washers are different thickness's to keep the plate your machining from pushing the bearing into the end of the drum shaft and making the drum from pushing against the back of the winch housing and binding it up so the drum won't turn. On that plate with the o-rings I finally gave up and threaded the center hole to 1/8 npt and threaded the swivel onto an 1/8 npt pipe for pressure to the clutch. The first picture in my post from yesterday.



 

 The brake system work with the springs on the right side of the drum by holding the drum tight till you put pressure to the cylinder then it opens the band to release the cable.

 

 

 

 

When you put pressure to the clutch cylinder when the secondary band turns it lets the brake band slide enough to release it and pull your cable in.
 I used a 2 part epoxy to glue the fiber back to the band.
 When I worked on the brake spring shafts I used never-seize to lubricate the moving parts.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #69 on: March 05, 2021, 10:13:12 AM »
Thanks a lot Ed_K. 

I've kept the original swivel. It was all "clean" tho, I have glued the bearing, and the swivel with loctite 577.  There is so much slop between the bearing retainer plate's stub, with the O ring. And the well it fits in. That I don't trust the shimming washers to seal it well. Since I will use hydraulics to actuate the clutch and brake. I need those to be properly oil tight. 

In the well, there is a bevel, that I wonder if it is for another O ring. 

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2021, 09:30:16 AM »
 In that well there should be a bearing,a u-cup and 1 o-ring. These seal the swivel and the flange on the tube.At one point I got a repair kit # 57625 trying to seal the tube. If your winch is newer 19/119-25020 then you need 2 bearings before the u-cup.
The 12 shim washers are for proper shim adjustment between the large bearing and the clutch hub,so the bearing doesn't push the clutch hub against the brake drum which then pushes that against the winch housing, locking the drum from turning. The book shows using a depth mike to get this measurement. My repair manual I down loaded is so dark I can barely see picture of the micrometer. By any chance do you have the book to look at to see what I'm seeing?
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #71 on: March 11, 2021, 01:41:23 PM »
So, I did something good today. 

A proper shim. 1.5mm thick. 

I have added the O ring I wanted to. Hoping for more resistance to leakage. 

 

 

 

  
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #72 on: March 11, 2021, 01:54:56 PM »
And i think i have found the trick, to have a simpler hydraulic valve. Two electrically actuated valves. And electric over hydraulic. Way simpler!  ;D
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #73 on: March 14, 2021, 08:21:08 AM »
Guys. I have found dead cheap Kuroda valves with 24v solenoids one ebay. 

Kuroda PCS241B-NB-D24

I wonder if these are for air or hydraulics? I obviously don't need much in term of flow nor pressure, to power the brake and clutch receiving cylinders. I need straight and cross flow. To push the cylinders, or let the oil flow back to the tank. 

I'm wondering if i take the pressure from the power steering. 

For the electric part, i found the simple way. Two 24 volts  four poles solenoid switches for three phase power that i have. One opening just the brake cylinder, for freespooling of the drum. 

The other one opening the brake, and locking the clutch. It is as simple as that. May be i'll set a timer between the opening of the brake,and the start of the winching. 

A three position switch in the cab, paralleled with the remote controller switches.  

I will certainly buy the one advised by treemuncher, in this thread. 

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=113826.msg1792296#msg1792296

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #74 on: March 15, 2021, 07:59:32 AM »
Guys, this the link to the swivel. 

Is the crack real bad? I guess so. 



 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #75 on: March 15, 2021, 08:06:36 AM »
Trash
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #76 on: March 15, 2021, 08:15:02 AM »
I havent really kept up with your winch controller plans because i dont know enough about forestry winch internals to not put my foot in my mouth, and your plans are complex enough to confuse me so i cant really be much use.  

But i thought you might be able to make good use of vektek, enerpac and vickers manual control valves for machine fixturing.  Theyre the perfect size for low volume hydraulic controllers with manual levers which are simple, reliable and allow some modulation.  Solenoid valves i consider less reliable than hand operated spool or rotary valving. 


There are tons of these sold on ebay and other MRO surplus sites.  They make many configurations.
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #77 on: March 15, 2021, 08:30:46 AM »
I havent really kept up with your winch controller plans because i dont know enough about forestry winch internals to not put my foot in my mouth, and your plans are complex enough to confuse me so i cant really be much use.  

But i thought you might be able to make good use of vektek, enerpac and vickers manual control valves for machine fixturing.  Theyre the perfect size for low volume hydraulic controllers with manual levers which are simple, reliable and allow some modulation.  Solenoid valves i consider less reliable than hand operated spool or rotary valving.


There are tons of these sold on ebay and other MRO surplus sites.  They make many configurations.
Thanks a lot Mike, for the reply. 
Well, it simple, as i see it.  (now) 
There is one clutch cylinder
and one brake cylinder. 
For freespooling of the drum, only the brake needs to have pressure. 
For winching in (or out, i will have that option) 
Both of these need to receive pressure to open. 
I will use two solenoid valves, because i really really want a remote. I wouldn't have bought the gearmatic otherwise. I knew i could do it. 
Both will be actuated by relays.  (we call those "contacteurs") 



 
I have plenty of those, in 24v, from the chairlift company. 
One switching only the brake solenoid valve.  
The other one switching both valves. One single switch on the dashboard,  
Middle position braking. 
One "retained position" for the freespool. 
One, that i have to hold, for the winching in. 
And all of this paralleled with the remote. 
I wonder if it is worth anything to have the freespool on the remote. 
Motor start and stop would be nice. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #78 on: March 15, 2021, 10:18:24 AM »
 When you have the remote on, working the brake release that's when you will have free spool. The way you have it worded it should work perfectly.
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #79 on: March 15, 2021, 10:47:47 AM »
Thanks ED. Only prob, will be buying cetop 3 Nothing much, 150 of solenoid valves. 70 or so of remote. I need to sort out what kind of hydraulics i want.  How i implement things. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #80 on: March 15, 2021, 04:05:05 PM »
In america we call them contactors also.  Sounds like youve got it licked max.  smiley_thumbsup
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #81 on: March 15, 2021, 05:50:27 PM »
Well, i discovered something. The o ring on the drum side of the clutch and brake compartment is gone!  ::)
Anybody knows the joint's diameter and circumference of the drum's seal? 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #82 on: March 16, 2021, 07:49:10 AM »
 I looked all thru my book and all I can do to help is the large o-ring is part # 50347 and the smaller one is part # 50331. These are on the model 19.
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #83 on: March 16, 2021, 08:30:21 AM »
Thanks a lot Ed.

I have G281 as a number for this O ring.

I would like to know the dimensions, to glue one myself! I'll glue it on the drum, oil it then push it in.  Instead of taking everything appart! 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #84 on: March 18, 2021, 10:24:36 AM »
The drum's O ring being missing bugs me big time.

Anybody here has changed his?

And there is the worn out and bent splines on the shaft, which annoy me too.

 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #85 on: March 18, 2021, 05:08:02 PM »
In the american southeast that is a highly technical condition known as 'wallered out.'

'Snawt good. 
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #86 on: March 18, 2021, 05:37:42 PM »
I had to look at the "translation" well, that's after a lot of translation! :D  ;D
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #87 on: March 22, 2021, 01:54:19 PM »
Guys, it's chtuck!

Is there a trick to get those out ? 



 
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #88 on: March 23, 2021, 10:31:33 AM »
It's doing my head in.

I have a part number on the housing D-1.9534, which leads to nowhere, but may be caterpillar. Looked cat adapter plates.

https://avspare.com/caterpillar/sebp1345/sebp1345035/#SEBP13450350

And it seems there is a # 21 or 15 bolt. Which i can't see how to unscrew.

It doesn't look like this one either.

https://en.av-gk.ru/catalog/komatsu/td8g/17-060/

There is the bolt on this one

https://avspare.com/catalog/case/57194/5647562/843361/

and this one too.

https://avspare.com/spare/case/d46289/
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #89 on: March 23, 2021, 11:30:35 AM »
Cant help ya there max.  Any chance its hung on that center shaft or maybe snap-ringed from the interior?
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #90 on: March 23, 2021, 12:24:02 PM »
I don't know. I just turned a bolt chaser out of some brass. And pushed the four remaining bolts out. To no avail.
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #91 on: March 23, 2021, 05:26:48 PM »
So finally, it is all appart. 

The two hidden screws were in the two big holes of the rear mounting stubs. 

16 mm hex head, or 5/8" I ground a 17 mm one. 









I still need to remove the oil seal. 

Work on the input shaft, which has a good 2 mm runout. 

I will cut the splines out. Buy a proper shaft, 21 splines 1" 3/8. Bore it to the right diameter, bar a few thousandths.  Heat shrink it on the shaft, weld it to it. Then dress the welds. Redo the oil seal "journal" I have a bit of room there. I think i can do something. Or sleeve it. 

I have discovered that the brake doesn't hold, while lifting the winch to turn it over. I will need to change the input  gear bearing too. 

Lotsa work ahead! 

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #92 on: March 25, 2021, 06:21:23 AM »
 That back plate doesn't look anything like my 19, did you figure out what it is? I don't have a hydro access like that.
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #93 on: March 25, 2021, 08:12:50 AM »
That back plate doesn't look anything like my 19, did you figure out what it is? I don't have a hydro access like that.
Ed, sorry, i don't know what it is. May be some caterpillar. The number seems to lead that way. 
What do you mean by "hydro access" ? 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #94 on: March 26, 2021, 07:55:37 AM »
 On the left side of the plate there's what looks like a cat hydraulic bolt up for a hose.
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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #95 on: March 26, 2021, 09:46:00 AM »
Sorry to be dumb. I don't see what you mean. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Gearmatic specialists, hydraulics?
« Reply #96 on: March 27, 2021, 05:43:40 AM »
 I went back to reply 87 and I'm wrong, what i was looking at are just mounting brackets. Sorry for the confusion :(.
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