goose neck into logging trailer

[Walnut Beast]

I love that!

No side post bending with that angle. Now if it was pinned so you could take the sides off would be nice 🤔. Yellowhammers setup is slick. But a angled upright pinned brace that removes with the upright would eliminate most upright bending 

[stavebuyer]

I love that!

No side post bending with that angle. Now if it was pinned so you could take the sides off would be nice 🤔. Yellowhammers setup is slick. But a angled upright pinned brace that removes with the upright would eliminate most upright bending

I don't have a picture but the angle on the removeable uprights can be made from chain to keep them from spreading and the weight of the logs pulls them in rather than spreading. Many of the stave haulers use them to haul stave logs to the mill and sawn staves back to a cooperage. They use channel sized to fit the stake pockets. Keep it simple. Its not like you are going to load 13'6" high like a tandem log truck. All you need is to keep the logs from rolling off until you get them strapped down and from rolling off when you are unstrapping. You hang one with a big loader all you have to do is turn the crook inside. 

[mike_belben]

The problem with little stakes is when they hold 2 tiers and you go for a 3rd, just resting the logs ontop in the notches of other logs.  Then one rolls away from you and over off the far side onto the ground.. Or fender.. Or a mailbox or car or dog or person.  Dont take it for granted that your containment will contain a stick of timber.

[Walnut Beast]

Stavebuyer made a great point on using chain👍. Note (Yellowhammer used round tubing on the side supports)  It has a higher strength than comparable square tubing

[YellowHammer]

Walnut Beast is correct, I used round cold rolled for the stubs and uprights.  Heavy wall round tubing is best, especially for systems that slide inside each other, like sleeves.  It also increases the load bearing capacity, or the shear capacity, of the bunk pocket joints, where the stubs are welded in.  

The bunks themselves with the studs stay in the trailer year round, unless I trade trailers. This particular setup has been used on two PJ trailers, with no modifications between the two.

The vertical posts slip on and off easily by hand, although a handle might be handy.  

The setup basically leaves the trailer open, even with the bunks installed.  I carry 4 packs of wood every week to get planed, and I don't want to take the bunks themselves off, only the uprights.  



If desired the bunks are easy to remove, simply lift up one side from the stake pocket, lift the other side from the stake pocket, rotate the assembly 90° and then simply slide it off the trailer no the ground.  

I have tried wood, and they broke. I have tried 4 inch steel channel, and it bent.  I have been using these for years, and still perfect.  Logs aren't loaded gently, knuckle booms and loaders are not delicate, and that's what's used, at several places to load me.  

In order to meet DOT Log Truck regulations, logs must be loaded side to side, tightly packed, and must bear on themselves and the side supports.  This prevents sliding, and the strength of the uprights must be stronger than the weight of the logs.  These are built that strong.  The uprights will not break under the full weight of the logs, and not delicate loader operators have almost flipped the trailer trying side push a log between the uprights that wouldn't fit.  If a log is jacked up when loading, the loader can't just jam them down, because the sides won't flex, it's that strong.  

There is another added benefit in that when mega logs are loaded and I don't have the lifting capacity to dead lift them over the uprights, I can simply remove the uprights from one side, and roll the off the side of the trailer by pushing it.  

These were unloaded by rolling off with the side supports removed.






On a normal load, I just deadlift over the uprights.  To give you an idea of how much this gets used, just two weeks ago I transported a full trailer load of lumber to a neighboring town, with the uprights removed, came back home, slid the side posts on, and trucked 4 full capacity loads of logs, by 1300.  That's a lot of hauling and the bunks make it possible.  I go over scales, so I know when I'm at capacity.  This rig gets used hard.  

I use standard transport DOT rated and certified strap winches, since I get DOT inspected, like used on any semi truck, welded to the trailer frame.  They are spaced every 4 feet for load securing requirements, and I have to replace the straps about every two years.  

The other big advantage of this setup is that it distributes the weight of load across the trailer I beams, directly to the bed frame.

[stavebuyer]

The problem with little stakes is when they hold 2 tiers and you go for a 3rd, just resting the logs ontop in the notches of other logs.  Then one rolls away from you and over off the far side onto the ground.. Or fender.. Or a mailbox or car or dog or person.  Dont take it for granted that your containment will contain a stick of timber.

Its even worse when your loading one log extra at 13'6" and have roll one off. Been there done that. Just as dead rolling one over the top of 6x6 tubing at 13' as over top of 1.5"x3" channel at 5'. Probably deader and harder to get away from the higher load which is all that happens when you raise the height of bolsters.

The company using the short stakes with chains hauls around 50 million bf/ft a year mostly interstate and crosses no less than  20 state lines. Seems to work ok for them.

If your pulling a gooseneck with a CTL on it and feel the need to go more than 2 logs high then wondering if the standard will keep your log from rolling off probably is not your biggest worry.

[mike_belben]

Boys i dont mean to be a stickler about it and yellowhammer i think your bunks are excellent... I dont doubt them a bit. But the metal nerd in me is compelled to correct the statement that round tube is "stronger" than square. 

Look up modulus of elasticity and moment of inertia calcs for any structural material you want.  Size and wall thickness being equal, square tube is more rigid than round.  That is to say a HREW  3x3x.250 square tube has less deflection over the same unsupported span as a 3" x .250 wall round tube. 

A round tube however has much higher torsional load bearing properties, hence its superiority is driveshafting and power transmission.  You can also use the same calculations to consider the effect of thicker wall vs larger diameter in order to balance strength to weight ratio as well as cost.  Hint.. Big diameter thin wall is typically stronger and sometimes lighter than small diameter heavy wall.  One should use the largest diameter they can fit, and the minimum wall thickness that prevents localized denting.

Square standards are stronger than rounds.  But for fabrication purposes, they have yet to invent the square hole saw and plasma cutters cost a lot more than drill presses!

[Banjo picker]

Great thread,  Doc my hats off to you for starting it, and Yellowhammer same to you for taking the time to document everything on your trailer.  I have been using white oak and a couple of metal standards I found on the road when working for Dot.  I plan on copying your design.  Banjo

[YellowHammer]

When setting the heights of the bunks, and having the advantage of being able to go over truck weigh scales, I kept adjusting bunk height until the log's centerline doesn't go over the top of the standards with a full but not overweight load.  

After awhile, I can pretty easily eyeball judge a full but not overweight load by where the logs sit relative to the top of the uprights.  I've also talked to more than one state trooper who says they make a decision to pull over a loaded truck based on how high the logs are stacked, and if any have a centerline above the top of the side support.  So being able to adjust and optimize the height of the supports with a cutoff saw helps get the load weight right, helps keeps the Trooper off my bumper, and also helps me resist the temptation to overload.

Also, I, like many use standard "truck friendly" 42 inch wide pallets, in order to get two packs side by side on a flat bed without violating the rub rail space.  Unlike 48 inch wide packs loaded side by side, which completely take up an 8 foot bed and forces the tie down straps to be routed on the outside of the rub rails, which is a DOT law violation.  Rub rails are put on trailers so that if there is a sideswipe accident where the vehicle or object slides down the length and side of the trailer, (been there) then it can't cut the tie down straps and lose the load.  With the straps protected by the rub rails, then the straps will not get cut.  So always run the straps inside the rub rails, that's why they were put there.  

All these are little things, but all are incorporated in the trailer design and intended to keep me from getting any more "knee knocker" trucking tickets.  

[Walnut Beast]

Boys i dont mean to be a stickler about it and yellowhammer i think your bunks are excellent... I dont doubt them a bit. But the metal nerd in me is compelled to correct the statement that round tube is "stronger" than square.  

Look up modulus of elasticity and moment of inertia calcs for any structural material you want.  Size and wall thickness being equal, square tube is more rigid than round.  That is to say a HREW  3x3x.250 square tube has less deflection over the same unsupported span as a 3" x .250 wall round tube.  

A round tube however has much higher torsional load bearing properties, hence its superiority is driveshafting and power transmission.  You can also use the same calculations to consider the effect of thicker wall vs larger diameter in order to balance strength to weight ratio as well as cost.  Hint.. Big diameter thin wall is typically stronger and sometimes lighter than small diameter heavy wall.  One should use the largest diameter they can fit, and the minimum wall thickness that prevents localized denting.

Square standards are stronger than rounds.  But for fabrication purposes, they have yet to invent the square hole saw and plasma cutters cost a lot more than drill presses!

Some good insight Mike. But from my understanding round is pound for pound stronger than square

[stavebuyer]

And while we are busy spending Docs fabrication budget the first modification I would do to any vehicle hauling logs is build a substantial headache rack.

Objects at rest tend to stay at rest; while objects in motion tend to stay in motion.

[mike_belben]

Only in torsion loads like a driveshaft.  strictly by the pound youd have to be comparing a 6" exhaust pipe vs a 1" square 3/16 tube or something like that for round to be "stronger" than sq.  Hillbillies make standards out of water pipe because thats what they got.  Pitts makes them out of square because thats whats strongest at any cost.



If looking at same diameter and wall thickness [measuring the square across the flats] the square will be more rigid and the round will be lighter, naturally since a narrower coil was fed into the drawing die to make round tubes.


Diamond oriented square tubing is weaker also, you wouldnt want to turn standards or crossmembers 45 degrees, its stronger along the flats.  




Easiest way to eyeball it is put then both on cinder blocks and step on em.  


A piece of 6" exhaust pipe welded front to back down the center of a GN trailer will make a great torque tube and stop it from winding up.  But its not a very good log standard.  A 3" C channel is an excellent crossmember, a fair stake, and a horrible torque tube.


Just have to utilize each piece of metal to use its strength and avoid its weakness.  
for instance, angle iron would be the worlds worst torsion bar but Lord knows how crabby i get when i run out of it!

:D

[YellowHammer]

Here's  a closeup of the joint.  Since there is no way way to gusset the stud and also allow the side post sleeve to slide on and off, its important to assemble it as a submerged joint, as I mentioned earlier, and to cut a hole in the top of the square tubing in order to slide the round stock down into it and weld the bottom of the stud to the inside bottom of the square tubing, and even up the side.  Then passes are made to the top of the square tubing and there is no way for the welds to fail and the side posts to come off.  The metal would have to be ripped out of the pocket, weld or no weld.  At that point, set the assembly on the trailer, jig the down channel into the rub rail and final weld them.





Welding on the truckers winches, or even a winch slide rail, is also much the best way to strap loads.  These are extremely strong, much more so than any ratchet strap, and also much faster to use.  I prefer the weld on winches, they are so strong that I had a car head one sideswipe me a few years ago, and the multiple winches under the trailer frame cut through the car like chainsaw teeth, literally filleting it like a fish, the entire side of the car laying on the ground, and the winches were not even damaged.

There is a trick when welding winches, or anything else, on a tube trailer frame, especially since the trailer wiring is run in the same piece of metal.  If not careful when welding big, multi pass welds on a trailer frame, they will melt the trailer light wiring that is run inside the tubing.  So park the trailer slightly downhill, and run a garden hose into the forward end of the trailer frame (pop out the 2" round marker lights to get access to the inside of the tubing) and the water will run 25 feet inside the tube and exit out near the tail of the trailer.  The running water will keep the metal cool enough not melt the wiring and since there is no spillage on the ground, there is no chance of standing in a puddle of water when welding.  

[doc henderson]

I have ratchet straps.  I originally got the J hooks, looks like the flat bar type is better for this type of rail.  the integrated winch straps look nice.  do you have a source for these.  or under frame pics of the attachment.  if you are in the area, can you just drop your trailer off so I can look at it?   :D :D :D   thanks for all the info.  any and all tips and tidbits are welcome!

[Walnut Beast]

Here's  a closeup of the joint.  Since there is no way way to gusset the stud and also allow the side post sleeve to slide on and off, its important to assemble it as a submerged joint, as I mentioned earlier, and to cut a hole in the top of the square tubing in order to slide the round stock down into it and weld the bottom of the stud to the inside bottom of the square tubing, and even up the side.  Then passes are made to the top of the square tubing and there is no way for the welds to fail and the side posts to come off.  The metal would have to be ripped out of the pocket, weld or no weld.  At that point, set the assembly on the trailer, jig the down channel into the rub rail and final weld them.





Welding on the truckers winches, or even a winch slide rail, is also much the best way to strap loads.  These are extremely strong, much more so than any ratchet strap, and also much faster to use.  I prefer the weld on winches, they are so strong that I had a car head one sideswipe me a few years ago, and the multiple winches under the trailer frame cut through the car like chainsaw teeth, literally filleting it like a fish, the entire side of the car laying on the ground, and the winches were not even damaged.

There is a trick when welding winches, or anything else, on a tube trailer frame, especially since the trailer wiring is run in the same piece of metal.  If not careful when welding big, multi pass welds on a trailer frame, they will melt the trailer light wiring that is run inside the tubing.  So park the trailer slightly downhill, and run a garden hose into the forward end of the trailer frame (pop out the 2" round marker lights to get access to the inside of the tubing) and the water will run 25 feet inside the tube and exit out near the tail of the trailer.  The running water will keep the metal cool enough not melt the wiring and since there is no spillage on the ground, there is no chance of standing in a puddle of water when welding.  

It doesn't get much better than YellowHammers system........

[Resonator]

I would suggest check with the trailer manufacturers design spec.s for load securement, they should say where you can or cannot cut or weld, mount a winch, and where to hook a strap to. Also check with a good commercial semi trailer repair / fab shop. They would know what it would take to mount winches, and most importantly to pass DOT inspection. Either way you'll need a good structural welder for that work.
X2 on the headache rack is a good idea for hauling tall stacks of logs. Also they can stop forward movement for stacks of lumber, as boards in center of a pack can slide out in a "brake check".

[alan gage]

I've always meant to build something better but what I have keeps working so I keep using it. Part of the reason is that I don't haul logs very often and my trailer is only rated at 14k so they're generally not piled very deep. And I'm usually picking up good sized hardwood logs so oftentimes a single layer is about all I want to handle. An average haul for me would be a couple miles. Ten miles would be a long haul. This is Iowa so we don't have grades or twists in the road.

What I use is some pretty heavy 3" C channel that drops into the stake pockets. I welded a nut to them to act as a stop so they can't slide in too far. They only stick up about 22" above the bed if I remember right so they only contact the first layer of logs. The second layer, if there is one, sits in the cracks of the first layer and it all gets held down with heavy ratchet straps.

I figured the short height would help protect the trailer by limiting leverage and would also keep me from being tempted to load too high. So far both of those have worked out. A couple times I've rolled big logs a little too hard when loading and a couple of the C channels have a slight bend in them but no damage to the trailer.

I pull them out before unloading logs with the skidloader.

Alan

[YellowHammer]

PJ trailers, like the one Doc and I have, is a very good brand, and Resonators advice is spot on.  I actually did that, and saw how my certified PJ Trailer dealer mounted the weld on winches, and that is where I bought my first set of winches, as well as the straps.  That's also where I learned the trick of not burning the wires.  Now I get my straps from Amazon.  

If buying a new PJ, they offer sliding winches from the factory, and they also offer a totally protected winch hook bar, which is a piece of flat stock, run under the entire length of the trailer, where the winch hooks can attach, completely protected buy the trailer.  Pretty cool, but my trailer doesn't have one.

Another big factor in the design of this system is that nothing is done to alter the structural integrity of the trailer, because the bunks are removable and no modifications are made to the trailer itself.  So nothing is done to impact the load ratings or manufacturer certifications of the trailer.  Or equally important, its resale value.  

Also, a very good (maybe better) alternative to the weld winches are the ones that slide in a structural track, under the trailer.  This way, the winches can be slid sideways to any location on the trailer.  Both types have the same load rating, although I felt the weld on winches were inherently stronger.    

All modifications, including the construction of the bunks, can probably be done by any local PJ dealer, or any good trailer dealer, for that matter.  

Safety was my number one goal with this system, as I had just experienced a less than pleasant and somewhat expensive run in with the State DOT Troopers, and was not going to make that expensive mistake twice.

Here is one link of many (google "bottom mount weld on 4" web winch") that supply the 4" weld on winches, the 4" winch straps, as well as the winch bar, used to tighten them.

Storable Weld-On Truck Tie Down Winch [TW410] | US Cargo Control

Here are the sliding ones,
Storable Sliding Truck Tie Down Winch [TW420] | US Cargo Control

PJ offers the winches, but they are significantly more expensive.

Doc, I'll get some pictures this evening.







 

[YellowHammer]

Picture of weld on winch.



 

[snowstorm]

Boys i dont mean to be a stickler about it and yellowhammer i think your bunks are excellent... I dont doubt them a bit. But the metal nerd in me is compelled to correct the statement that round tube is "stronger" than square.  

Look up modulus of elasticity and moment of inertia calcs for any structural material you want.  Size and wall thickness being equal, square tube is more rigid than round.  That is to say a HREW  3x3x.250 square tube has less deflection over the same unsupported span as a 3" x .250 wall round tube.  

A round tube however has much higher torsional load bearing properties, hence its superiority is driveshafting and power transmission.  You can also use the same calculations to consider the effect of thicker wall vs larger diameter in order to balance strength to weight ratio as well as cost.  Hint.. Big diameter thin wall is typically stronger and sometimes lighter than small diameter heavy wall.  One should use the largest diameter they can fit, and the minimum wall thickness that prevents localized denting.

Square standards are stronger than rounds.  But for fabrication purposes, they have yet to invent the square hole saw and plasma cutters cost a lot more than drill presses!

gotta agree with him. up here in the 60's everyone used round stakes. the 70's almost all were square. i trucked wood every day for 20 yrs. the bodies i built used 3\8" wall 4x4. and to move the stakes drill a hole in it and use a pulp hook. now days everyone has the deloupe stakes and pockets

[Skeans1]

How do you guys get away with using winch's and straps? Why not use at least two cable wrappers they'll be a lot less likely to top during a hard braking event.

[YellowHammer]

Since its a dual purpose setup, and I haul lots of expensive and finished lumber, (packs of $200 to $300 per board, sometimes) as well as logs, the cables would dig in and damage the corners of the the lumber packs badly. Straps cause much less damage to the lumber.  

Loggers here haul with wires or straps, so I went with straps.  DOT allows both, as long as the number used and load rating are sufficient.  I do carry a set of transport chains and binders as backup if a think a log load needs it. 

The standard Deloupe setup is super nice, but way overkill for a gooseneck, and I didn't like how they were designed to maximize the width if the load of logs and get them all the way out to the edge of the trailer, which is what a professional logger would want to maximize space and carrying capacity, but I knew I was weight capacity limited and also I thought the crossmemebers were too high for a gooseneck.  So I asked a couple companies to build me some custom ones with lower uprights that fit inside the rub rail, and wouldn't have to be permanently attached to the trailer as these are generally welded or bolted to the trailer, which I didn't want to do.  I also wanted the log load narrower, pulled inside the trailer footprint, to maximize the stability of the gooseneck, and to be able to use the rub rails.  I don't remember the prices I was quoted, but it was wow expensive.  So I just built my own version.  

[Skeans1]

@YellowHammer 
Just because you can use nylon doesn't mean you should. It's more likely to slip on you then a wire that goes all the way around the load and meets up to a chain binder. Up here even on the hay rack trailers the straps are illegal because of that exact reason they can have something slip as well they don't tighten the load to itself.

[YellowHammer]

These are DOT legal, rated and annually inspected truckers straps and winches, and if I had any issues, I would swap them out immediately.  I'm not sure what you mean by not pulling a load together, that's one thing they do well, they pull my packs of lumber and logs tightly together, just as on any semi truck flatbed lumber hauler, so they won't move against each other.  That's very important for a secure load.  I don't know of any lumber haulers who use wire, at least in this part of the country.  All use web straps and winches.

I'm using a standard 32" trucker winch bar to tighten the winches, I'm not using "hay hauler" ratchet straps from Tractor Supply.

[mike_belben]

How do you guys get away with using winch's and straps?

Nothing illegal about it.  Section 3.1.2 only specs securements have a min WLL of 4000lbs.


Logs in a bunk need 1/6th of the total load WLL but not in a bunk requires the standard 1/2 of the load.


The only reason for cable on log trailers is that everyone would need rotator cuffs after trying to throw full lengths of 5/16 grade 70s.   I doubt many people can do it at all.  


Youd be a fool to use anything but strap to secure lumber.


Pallet rack screens with the braces knocked off and bent into L shapes makes a perfect bulkhead fence to keep individual sticks of lumber from poking forward.  I used them for steel and brick loads.