Author Topic: Forum designed Block splitter - Fast build, tractor driven (Read 1382 times)

Timberjack5 · « **on:** August 28, 2020, 01:20:29 AM »

Some of you that have been following my threads know that I have a few big projects about to start.
1 / Logging winch on tractor to skidder conversion.
2 / Harvester parts out to firewood processing mill.
However while all that’s underway I have been offered a small firewood supply contact that is fairly lucrative, I’ve said yes and shook hands to deliver the first load in 2 weeks time. I already pretty flat out as I’m building a shed for a client which pays the final 20% balance on a Cat D6D dozer plus I’ve got a few things happening with my cattle and I’m starting a few colts for another client. While I’m doing this over the next month there is not a lot of income coming in, therefore the firewood is a foot in the door to a new business that I’m getting involved in plus it’s cash now. My mate has a resort and his firewood supplier has retired, he wants me to bag it in 20kg ( 44 pound ) bags already split, it works out to 350 per tonne in this way and he sells it to the people who camp or stay in his cabins on his property. He goes through about 100 bags a week. He sells it for just over double what I get but I’m more than happy with the rate, good luck to him.
Anyway my other buddy has a lot of tree tops from where it was logged for mill logs a few years ago, I’ll be able to go in just with a chainsaw but I need to build a splitter real quick from what I already have here. I’ve got
* plenty of I beam 7 x3 -1/2 inch and 8x4 inch medium weight.
* cutting edge off big road grader blade
* assorted heavy steel
* enough inch and 1/4 plate to make a heavy base plate.
* tractor with 20 gallon per minute flow 2610 psi
* best condition cylinder is inch and 1/4 rod with 12 inch stroke complete with end pins.
* another cylinder that needs a bit of a tidy up is inch and 1/4 rod 2 foot stroke.
*Then I do have a bigger one 2 and 1/2 inch rod x 2 and 1/2 feet stroke.
All above cylinders are dual acting.
* 2 spool valve bank dual acting.
Got great welding gear up to 600amps, mig, tig and stick, got 100 tonne punch and shear, oxy / lpg cutting, carbon arc gouging gear. Press drill.
Lot of experience in heavy fabrication / welding / pressure welding.
I’m thinking a vertical splitter ( 3pl hitch ) as I can improve it on the fly, I’ve got a tip truck and some hay elevators that I might be able to convert for wood. Hoping to keep manual lifting to a minimum as the show improves.
Most thing that I need help with is working out the splitting force of tractor with available cylinders, also hoping to build something where I’m not waiting all day for the cylinder to come down to the block of wood, I’ve done a bit with hydraulics, replaced a few pumps on tractors, cleaned a few blocked screens, made a bypass and gone external flow on tractor, things like that but I don’t know how to work out the maths on these cylinders against the flow rate apart from hooking it all up, building it on trail and error but I haven’t got time to make a mistake. I’m not saying I couldn’t work it out and teach myself with the internet resources however I’m busy and in a hurry, It makes a lot more sense to ask as there are people here who have a lot more experience. Please be mindful that I’m dealing with Australian Hardwood and this stuff is tough ( iron bark ) and I need to come up with the best tonnage splitting force possible with that tractor specs plus that splitter steel work needs to be tough. I’ve come to realise there are some very clever people on this forum in the short time that I have been a part of it and I will be certainly greatful for any advice, I can post photos as I build what you guys lead me into.
Kindest regards
Timberjack5

Satamax · « **Reply #1 on:** August 28, 2020, 01:51:55 AM »

By any chance, do you have an elevator mast? That would be the fastest way to build a splitter i think. Or heavy equipment stabilizers for example.

For the hydraulics, you need to know your tractor's flow in liters per minute, or GPM. And pressure.

For the cylinders, it's easy, you take the tape measure, better if you have a taylor's one. Measure the circumference of the cylinder, divide that by pi. That gives you the diameter, substract 1cm, or thereabouts for the piston's diameter.

Then for the surface PIxR² easy.

Surface by pressure gives you tonnage.

Surface x length (travel) , in cm, gives you volume, in CC,

Then flow divided by volume gives you the time it takes to open or retract the cylinder.

HTH.

Myself, in a real hurry, i would go rotary or inertial.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 28, 2020, 01:59:33 AM »

Thanks Satamax, I’m not sure what an elevator last is ?
I do have a 9 tonne ( 20,000 pound) gvm or fully loaded weight, truck that has rear stabilisers for the cherry picker man basket set up. Happy to wreck that part of truck if that’s what you are taliking about.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 28, 2020, 02:01:36 AM »

Ok Satamax cheers mate

Satamax · « **Reply #4 on:** August 28, 2020, 02:01:51 AM »

Mast, i was correcting as you were posting.

A conical wood screw is fast too.

Satamax · « **Reply #5 on:** August 28, 2020, 02:06:00 AM »

moodnacreek · « **Reply #6 on:** August 28, 2020, 07:26:16 AM »

Copy powersplit international.

62oliver · « **Reply #7 on:** August 28, 2020, 07:30:28 AM »

What is the barrel diameter of your cylinders? I put a 4" X 24" on mine and find it a good combination of speed and splitting force. However the wood I am usually splitting is not terribly hard to split.
Also re: the grader cutting edge, I was going to make my wedge out of that too (I'm assuming that's what you have in mind). I was convinced by the guys on here that it was not needed as that cutting edge is not very friendly to work with. I ended up just making a wedge out of a 12" x 12" x 1" piece of plate. Took about an hour with a 7" grinder and an aggressive disc. Has been great and if needed it is easy to touch up.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #8 on:** August 28, 2020, 07:47:28 AM »

Lot of very good ideas here fellas. 62Oliver, I’m hearing you on the wedge, I’ll scrap the cutting edge idea, I was already thinking along your lines so yes I’ll run with that. What sort of tractor are you running that off, if it’s a tractor or what is your pressure and flow if you know it .
Satamax the rotary looks good too.
Moodna I had a look at the power split inter, very nice.

Haleiwa · « **Reply #9 on:** August 28, 2020, 07:57:25 AM »

If you have to deliver in bags, bagging will take longer than splitting if you split onto a pile. Make a horizontal frame high enough that the splitter will push the wood over the top of the bag (you have to make arms to hold the bag in position). That way you only have to lift it one time and gravity will fill the bag. Use the biggest cylinder and make a wedge on each end so that you can split in both directions. The ram will have to slide along a track with the cylinder rod underneath it. If you have help, one can feed the splitter while the other pulls away the full bags and slides in the empty ones.

mike_belben · « **Reply #10 on:** August 28, 2020, 08:13:22 AM »

Surplus center.com has a drp down tab. Click technical help then hydraulic then calculators.

I think a box wedge splitter with dragback with a hyd lift ramp is the way to go for very hard stuff. Or very large staff. Its gonna limit the load to about 3 cuts per stroke instead of say 8 or more. With force limited you dont need to designed for rare very high pressure situations.

mike_belben · « **Reply #11 on:** August 28, 2020, 08:45:05 AM »

Are u hand cutting the blocks with a chainsaw?

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 28, 2020, 09:01:11 AM »

Haleiwa
Yes I agree with the bag loading, like the double acting, yes wife can help on the less heavy tasks.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 28, 2020, 09:02:17 AM »

Mike, yes I’ll be cutting with a chainsaw initially until I can get one of these circular saws up and running.

62oliver · « **Reply #14 on:** August 28, 2020, 09:11:01 AM »

Quote from: Timberjack5 on August 28, 2020, 07:47:28 AM

Lot of very good ideas here fellas. 62Oliver, I’m hearing you on the wedge, I’ll scrap the cutting edge idea, I was already thinking along your lines so yes I’ll run with that. What sort of tractor are you running that off, if it’s a tractor or what is your pressure and flow if you know it .

I usually run it off the aux hydraulics on my Case 90xt skid steer, think flow might be about 16-20 GPM? Not sure. Sometimes I hook it to the John Deere 310C, the splitter runs a little faster on that.

Hilltop366 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 28, 2020, 09:36:35 AM »

I'm thinking you are going to be splitting stuff fairly small for bagged campfire wood so probably lots of re- splitting which makes me think that a box wedge or vertical splitter would fit best.

The issues with running a splitter off of a tractor hydraulics is in order to get the maximum flow rates you have to run the tractor at the rated speed which seem wasteful for splitting wood I use my tractor splitter but only run at a bit over ½ throttle, it is slow but I'm just splitting for myself where a splitter like my brother has with it's own engine (its only 5.5 hp) and a two stage pump is way faster and it frees up the tractor to move logs and pallets around.

mike_belben · « **Reply #16 on:** August 28, 2020, 11:13:13 AM »

Here is a compilation of home made box wedges mostly with dragback. I would watch it a few times to see what suits your iron pile. We can worry about the hydraulics once you nail down the design a bit.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 28, 2020, 04:13:12 PM »

Thanks Hilltop
“The issues with running a splitter off of a tractor hydraulics is in order to get the maximum flow rates you have to run the tractor at the rated speed which seem wasteful for splitting wood I use my tractor splitter but only run at a bit over ½ throttle, it is slow but I'm just splitting for myself where a splitter like my brother has with it's own engine (its only 5.5 hp) and a two stage pump is way faster and it frees up the tractor to move logs and pallets around”

Yes I catching on to this after studying flow rates a bit. Unless I had some massive hydraulic pump running off the pto there seems to be a waste of power I agree

mike_belben · « **Reply #18 on:** August 28, 2020, 06:21:25 PM »

You can size the pump for a lower speed operation or rig up a pulley to overdrive so the tractor can run lower rpm. The steady state ag governors should be pretty happy to fuel up hard and maintain rpm any time load drags it down.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 29, 2020, 04:43:41 PM »

Thanks for the input Mike, I’m in the thinking process at the moment, plus I’m going over my bits on the farm, thinking of stuff that I haven’t seen for a while that’s laying in the grass, you fellas have given me serious education and I’m processing thought atm.

Hilltop366 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 29, 2020, 07:16:32 PM »

There were some vertical PTO splitters built around here 40 years ago, I still see one once in a while. They were made with a chain and sprocket to speed the pump up and a foot pedal to control the ram, I believe they used a chain and sprocket to step up the speed so there was very little side load on the pump shaft compared to belts as most pumps are not designed for side load. Another option would be to use a jack shaft with 2 mounted bearings and a flexible coupling or a pump designed for a PTO.

To design one I would start with the available horsepower of your tractor at the rpm you want to run it and select a pump size to suit those specs. I would also be tempted to use a splitter type 2 stage pump and over size it a bit so it would not have to spin so fast to get the desired flow rate / ram cycle time.

Another thought is you will have the tractor hydraulics available to you for running other things like a block lift and conveyer.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #21 on:** August 29, 2020, 10:41:44 PM »

Thanks Hilltop, you’ve brought up some very good points and it’s all in alliance with where my thinking is going.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #22 on:** August 29, 2020, 10:51:26 PM »

Update Plan :
Next weekend we are going to cut a truck load of blocks with chainsaw, bring them back home. There is a hire splitter available which is a very good Australian built machine. I’ve booked it to hire a few weekends away. I can pick it up late Friday n drop back early Monday and they will charge just a day rate. The machine costs $10,000 to buy new and is much like the power split International that Moodna recommended. A conveyor on a new one is an extra $4000.
https://www.superaxe.com.au/superaxe-ws3150/
The hire model doesn’t have the conveyor but does have the 13hp upgrade Honda that is required for conveyor model. It has a 2 speed pump. Anyway it will get me out of trouble while creating some dollars to turn over plus it gives me a chance to try a good quality model while I decide what I’m building ( takes the pressure off a bit )
I’ll make sure I’ve got blocks and bags ready to maximise the hire time.

Satamax · « **Reply #23 on:** August 30, 2020, 03:59:55 AM »

That's a sensible option i think.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #24 on:** August 30, 2020, 04:55:21 AM »

Thanks Satamax

Satamax · « **Reply #25 on:** August 30, 2020, 06:04:16 AM »

Well, as i explained before. I love building stuff. but it takes time, and doesn't bring money. So i went with a bought combi splitter. And did the same with the sawmill. After procrastinating for years on my build. I still have one like that, the "skidder" But that one i want to finish.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #26 on:** August 30, 2020, 07:11:27 AM »

Yeah I’m hearing you, coming up with the concept is the easy part. Getting it built that’s another issue. What is your skidder project Satamax?

Satamax · « **Reply #27 on:** August 30, 2020, 07:19:47 AM »

This!

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=97397.0

mike_belben · « **Reply #28 on:** August 30, 2020, 08:28:41 AM »

Tj- look over the rental machine and particularly the conveyor drive pretty closely. take pictures of the dataplates on any pumps, gearboxes, engine, valves etc so you can later lookup what cu.in./rev, what hp, gear ratio, gpm etc they were.. and also at hose sizes and cylinder diameter to have a baseline of component sizes and their performance. A video of a few operation cycles will make it easier to stopwatch out the speeds later so you can say 'well these number will give me about an 9 second cycle' or whatever.

One possible error with using a single engine with 2 stage pump for the splitter and the conveyor, is that if the conveyor is hydraulic driven its pressure demands may kick out the high flow stage often or even all the time which totally defeats the point of a 2 stage pump. Why pay for the fast side of the pump if the conveyor always forces it to stay in low gear?

If the conveyor were a chain rather than belt unit and is permanently integrated to the splitter, It would be better to mount the engine where it could run a right angle gear box reducer for the conveyor drive sprocket, (or a few reducer pulleys) by chain (or vee belt) off the engine mechanically to avoid hydraulic on the conveyor. It runs all the time and hydraulics always has a 20-30% efficiency loss to heat.

If the hydraulic pump is only for the processor and you dont have the conveyors' extra heat load on your fluid to deal with, your fuel and engine will last longer. 13hp motors have enough shaft to stack several pulleys or sprockets, or a pulley and a lovejoy so you can do mechanical conveyor plus hydraulic pump from same engine if you plan it out right from the start.

You probably know that a belt conveyor must run the drive pulley at the top so most of those use hydraulic motors. Bottom driven conveyors must have a positive toothed engagement of some sort to prevent slippage. But it beats climbing a ladder to pullstart or fill the tank!

If youre building a big power hotrod splitter, 2 stage pumps of the gpm youd be wanting really arent out there but it is easy enough to build one with a check valve, relief valve and some tee fittings. It can be two independant pumps or one tandem sectional pump with a big side and a small side. All youre doing is combining flows of two gearsets and at a predetermined pressure, dumping the flow of the big pair back to tank. Its like downshifting a two speed rearend for the little engine to scream its way up the big hill at a snail's pace. The bright side of making your own is not only more flow but more adjustability. The factory 2stage pumps only got up to about 1.8 cubic inch per revolution and with bypass regulators limited to about 900 psi. This is sized well for say 18-24 hp.

If you were building around a 74hp kubota it would leave a lot of performance out. Would make more sense to use maybe a 3cu.in/rev big pump and say a 1.0cu.in/rev small pump with an 1800 psi kickout so that it really rams all but the very gnarliest wood right through at top speed. The relief valve is adjusted so that just before the engine lugs out the black smoke, your poppet opens and dumps the big pump flow back to tank. Now youre only turning the small pump and your engine hums on nice n smooth. Theyll call it an unloader valve but its just a plain ol adjustable relief valve used to "unload" the big pump which is trying to stall the engine out

I just made up ballpark numbers without looking at any calcs but the point is high performance systems will utilize components all matched up to maximize what every other component has to offer.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #29 on:** August 30, 2020, 02:55:43 PM »

Satamax I reckon you’re onto a good thing there with that skidder for a very reasonable budget.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #30 on:** August 30, 2020, 02:58:33 PM »

Thanks Mike, that’s very informative. I’ll read that a few more times.

mike_belben · « **Reply #31 on:** August 30, 2020, 10:22:39 PM »

Well, fwiw.. If yer gonna make a splitter ya might as well make it buck logs too. Any old log trough with some i beams for a dead deck will work.. Even slit pipe or 55g drums could work for the trough. At the end of it just put a big saw on a pivot. One hole thru the bar and walla. Its not great but a chainsaw simplifies so much about a processor.

Just a bolt through a pipe nipple and a thick backup washer to keep things square.

You can advance the log with a cheap winch and a hook hammered into the far end. Just a quick and dirty machine to get started and make some money for the cadillac build.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #32 on:** August 31, 2020, 06:23:58 AM »

Thanks Mike, yeah it’s a good fast option. I appreciate the photos mate.

Thanks also to everyone who has posted on this thread, it’s been a big help in steering me in the right direction.

Ed_K · « **Reply #33 on:** August 31, 2020, 07:35:46 AM »

What Mike showed is what I did on my build yrs ago only I used a hay elevator and tack welded 3/16 flat plate to the chain trough and the outside rails. I also turned the elevator chain around to get the teeth to pull the log better. then I mounted above a splitter that I built a table around splitter wedge. I also used the hay elevator as a split pieces elevator for a while.
I can't find the machine that mounts onto a bobcat that picks up a log has hydraulics to move the log forward an a hydraulic chainsaw to cut the block off then it drops into a chute that splits the block. You use the bobcat to put the unit over a truck side board or anywhere you want the pieces to go. You could set up your combine the same way.
Maybe one of our F F members has a video of the machine I wrote of.

mike_belben · « **Reply #34 on:** August 31, 2020, 07:51:38 AM »

Ed those are the halverson processors.

Got any pics of yours? How well did the hay conveyor work? Was it a single strand or a H chain?

Ed_K · « **Reply #35 on:** August 31, 2020, 09:21:12 AM »

I looked for pictures but can't find any that show it. It was a single strand type of chain. It worked good I put a handle on the large belt pulley to move the log forward.

Hilltop366 · « **Reply #36 on:** September 01, 2020, 01:21:43 PM »

I have always thought theses look efficient. (edit: for large wood)

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #37 on:** September 01, 2020, 02:29:24 PM »

Ed and Mike, it’s a good idea to use the hay elevator with the pivot chainsaw. I didn’t want to use my hay elevator as I recently rebuilt it, it’s light duty and I use it for hay. Yesterday I stumbled across a home build old hay elevator that is on the heavy duty side so I bought it for $100 as it’s just right for the job.
Ed, the idea about setting up a header front log grab processor like a monster halverston is certainly a grand idea.

mike_belben · « **Reply #38 on:** September 01, 2020, 03:14:36 PM »

Im building a conveyor from regular 5/16 chain using an i beam right now actually. Just ordered takeup bearings from surplus center for it.

This has some clever features and the same type of conveyor.

moodnacreek · « **Reply #39 on:** September 03, 2020, 08:07:20 PM »

Firewood conveyer comments: always pull from the top. If chain go single steel '78' chain down the middle. Buy or make 7 or more tooth 2.609 pitch sprockets. These can be welded in the middle of shaft and supported by 2 pillow block bearings at least 1 1/2" bore. Or [more $] get split babbit blocks and drop the sprocket/ shaft assemblies in. Sides of conveyer should be flared so it will spill rather than jam. These are methods that have and are working for me. P.S. those sprockets can be made from 1" plate with a cutting torch.

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Author Topic: Forum designed Block splitter - Fast build, tractor driven (Read 1382 times)

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