New to sawmills and some questions about timber

[Eciton]

Greetings all.   A little about me:  I live in Virginia and i'm looking at my own small mill for making use of some of the trees i dont want on the property.  I helped run my ex-father-in-laws mill for a short period of time but it was almost 20yrs ago.  I am an experienced woodworker but new to timber framing.

I have narrowed it down to the Woodland HM122 due to size and pricing since this is just a hobby for me and i dont need a giant mill or one that i can move around.

I have a lot of standing dead pine, oak, and ash varying in sizes but most 12''-15'' plus.  I have an equal amount laying on the ground for a couple years, some is total rot but most have a solid 8-10'' in the center.  I have a number of oaks that have been laying down for years but when i slab off the ends the 15''-18'' heartwood is still nice.

How do you determine what is worth cutting?  If i can only dig my knife in a quarter inch - 1'' on a 15'' log before hitting solid then it seems to me the inside might be ok for something.  

My goal is to build a small 16x16 timber frame building and some sheds at our property.  I will be harvesting live Virginia Pine for the timber frame pieces but would love to use the dead for something, even if its just siding or flooring.

thanks!!

[SawyerTed]

Welcome to the forum!  Often old logs lose the sapwood on the outside first, so the middle of some logs can produce fine lumber.  Some logs you don't know until you open them up. Like good wine, there's a fine line between sufficiently aged and rotten.

There's nothing like having a specific project to help you learn the ins and outs of making beams and lumber.  

Where are you in Virginia?  We have several members from the Old Dominion who could be neighbors. Possibly some of us in NC maybe neighbors 

[Eciton]

Appreciate it.  I'm in Western Northern Va by Warrenton.  

What is your experience with pines that have say, less than straight grain.  I have seen some dead ones that have lost their bark and several have grain that spirals about 1/4 turn over 16ft-20ft.  I wonder if they have any use as timber frame components or if they are only good for shorter boards like flooring.

Also I hope to be able to use the timbers for my projects in a "greenish" state.  IE, i might let them lay and dry for a couple months but no longer than that.  I have read this is the traditional way of doing it and a well built frame with good timber should hold itself together and not warp all out of shape?

[Lostinmn]

I'm also pretty new and have a woodmizer LT 15 for hobby use, no production or sawing for others, same boat as you.  When researching similar question, I got a lot of don't waste time with marginal wood or even small diameter stuff was written.  However, a lot of those comments seem to come for those doing sawing for others or for themselves for profit.  

For us hobbyists, self users I would like to suggest a different tack.  A have more trees then I'll ever use, but also lots of standing dead and even unused logs from prior clearing and cutting.  I often take a log that I'm sure those above wouldn't waste time on.  Quite frankly, I saw because I enjoy it.  So its almost as fun sawing up a questionable log to see what I get.  Sometimes its clear it won't work for lumber as its too far gone, but I can still get some 6x6 blocking it use for misc as if its a bit punky, so what.  Worst case scenario I've burned a little gas and a little time and toss it into the slab pile (currently getting used for a corduroy swamp road so not even a total waste). 

So if you not trying to squeeze out production or profit, I say saw it up and see what you get.  Just my two cents!

[SawyerTed]

I agree.  Open some up.  If they look good make what you can, if they look bad save your energy. 

It's s hobby, experiment, learn what you can.  What's the worst?  You waste some time and fuel. 

[RAYAR]

 ... Quite frankly, I saw because I enjoy it.  So its almost as fun sawing up a questionable log to see what I get. Worst case scenario I've burned a little gas and a little time...

You usually have to spend a little money and time to have fun, and you're getting some exercise besides. It's all good.

[Don P]

Use dead trees for non structural parts rather than as your frame parts. For siding, flooring ,panelling, trim or cabinets, even non structural blocking and fill. There is plenty of that in a house. I'd borate any of that right off the saw. Virginia pine is kind of notorious for twisting as it dries. People often think they can restrain timbers as they dry. Let me know how that goes. It is often done and there is nothing wrong with it as long as you go in with your eyes open. It is not the same as taking a dried timber and restraining that, do not let desire confuse what you know from having worked with wood. It's all fine and goes to expected final product but it is interesting to see what people try to convince themselves of out of convenience or necessity.

[Eciton]

Don,

more true words have never been spoken  :D

any tips/suggest reading for framing with greenish wood?  I would have thought if the grain was straight and the beams cut properly from the log then twisting/distortion would be minimized.  

[handhewn]

For reading check out "BARN THE ART OF A WORKING BUILDING" by ELRIC ENDERSBY, ALEXANDER GREENWOOD, AND DAVID LARKIN. Some of the structures shown go clear back to the 1400s. No metal or nails used. They're beautiful big or small.

[Brad_bb]

Dead standing Ash is worth cutting.  I've cut a lot of Emerald Ash Borer killed Ash that is dead standing.  You get a few years standing it's usually still good.  I've used a lot of it for beams and Tongue and groove boards.  When you cut it you can usually tell visually.  If you see any spalting check it and use for boards.  No Spalting use for beams.  Wood like Walnut and white oak can be down for years with the sapwood rotting off and the heartwood is still perfectly good.  Cherry is usually junk.  I've seem some red oak rot very quickly, but if kept pretty dry the heartwood may be good.  I don't know anything about softwoods.

Regarding your choice of mills... the price of that woodland mills is attractive, but more horsepower would be nicer cutting.  Although I have not used a mill smaller than my 19hp LT15, I've come to agree with what has been said here on the forums about more HP being better.  It's one factor that can help reduce waves in cutting.  There's plenty of topics here on cutting waves and the other factor to be aware of.  
Looks like it's got a 17" throat opening.  More would be nicer, especially if you end up with some nice logs you'd like to slab for tables and such.  I started on the woodmizer LT15 and still using it.  I'm going to step up to an LT15 wide electric soon so I'd go from 24" to 34" throat opening.   I can tell you that the LT15 is a well built mill .  I've used it more than I ever thought I would and don't regret going right to that.  I can definitely see where more HP would be better for sawing.   The good thing about my LT15 is that it seems to really hold it's value in resale.  I still consider myself a hobbyist, although a serious one.  

[Patrick NC]

Brad_bb is spot on about horsepower. My first mill was 14hp and I wouldn't want any less. The one I have now is 23hp and there are times that I wish I had more. I'm sure that there's been a lot of nice lumber cut with smaller engines and I'm not saying it can't be done, but a few more ponies will pay for itself in the long run. 
Welcome to the forum and keep us posted on your progress. 

[Don P]

There is too much good wood out there to use questionable timber for structural purposes.
From the Wood Handbook

Incipient decay induced by some fungi is reflected immediately in pronounced weakening of the wood.

This is before you can visually detect it, the mechanical properties plummet. The wood may be fine for non structural uses but it is not a good idea where strength and life safety are involved.

[Eciton]

i agree, i have had a standing deadwood ash tree fall over and explode because the wood was so brittle.  still hard mind you, i could drive a nail in it and it sounds solid but man it blew up like a tree bomb when it hit the ground.

[Eciton]

Looks like it's got a 17" throat opening

maybe i am confused by the specs but the HM122 says it will cut a 22'' log and 20'' max width board.  

while i agree that more HP is generally better the LT15 is well over double the price and i dont have the machinery to be hossing around bigger than 20'' logs anyway, my little tractor maxes out at about 800lbs on the front end loader.  hell, i dont even own a truck anymore so getting logs would be from my neighbors only, wherever i can drive my tractor and log arch.

[Rocknr]

I got the HM122 back in October.  I did get the 9.5 hp motor as that was my only concern after researching saws.  I have been thrilled with it's performance. I have cut elm, southern red oak, post oak and an old fallen black walnut with no issues.  There is a learning curve to using a sawmill just like any tool so just don't get in a hurry. It is the best present I've ever bought myself......did I mention that I'm a 73 year old grandma?  Good luck in your quest!

[jasonb]

Looks like it's got a 17" throat opening

maybe i am confused by the specs but the HM122 says it will cut a 22'' log and 20'' max width board.  

The older models (2019 and older) can only cut 17" boards.  The newer model was modified to move the drive belt to allow for larger board cut.

I have a 2019 HM122.  If you have the means get a larger mill, that is route I would take.  The HM122 does everything that the manufacturer claims and a little more but having a larger log bed would make it easier to position the logs for cutting.  I have cut 24" diameter logs but it is not easy to position the logs or turning them after the first cuts.

[Brad_bb]

When it says it will cut a 22" log.  That means you cant take a STRAIGHT 22" log (or a smaller log that isn't perfectly straight), put it on the mill and cut the top waste slab off.  Then roll it 180 degrees and cut that side waste slab off.  Then roll it 90 degrees and cut that waste slab off.  Then roll it 180 degrees and cut that waste slab off.  Now you end up with a can't that can be not more than 17" or 20" if the newest model has that throat opening.  I had looked on the internet yesterday on the woodland mills website and the specs said the widest board it will cut is 17".  That means the throat opening (between the stops) is 17", or 20" if they have made a new model with that.  Just make sure you are getting what you think you are getting.  

Woodmizer lists largest log size in the specs also.  I don't like that they do that.  It is misleading in my opinion to new prospective sawmill buyers.  The throat opening is what is most relevant to me.  You don't want to buy the mill thinking you can cut 22" slabs only to find out a few weeks after buying it you can only cut 17" or 20".

The think in the specs they should specifically say "Throat opening between the stops:XX"  Widest board width is a good wording too though.  That's the spec I care care about.  

By stating the largest log, they are also presumably indicating something about how high the head goes up too.  On my LT15 it's 26-27".  They state the largest log is 28".  But you could actually get a bit bigger log on there and cut waste slabs off to get it down to 24" in one direction and taller in the other and put that vertical and start sawing from there.  It's important to understand what you are buying and what it can actually do.  

I wouldn't want less than my LT15's capacity.

[thecfarm]

Rocknr, good to see you posting!! Got a Logrite to help you turn those logs??
And what's all the lumber being used for?

[Eciton]

I wouldn't want less than my LT15's capacity.

i get it, but for my uses i would have to outfit an entirely new infrastructure just to move larger logs around.  hell i have some oak my neighbor gave me that is 36''+ in diameter and 5 ft long.  my tractor cant even lift them.  i quartered it with a chainsaw and freehand cut some cool looking quarter sawn 8/4 boards though.  Once i planed them down the fleck was spectacular.  I cant wait to get a mill to do it right.  

its all about fun and making use of what i have for me.  i have no illusions that it will earn anything.

I have a plan i want to run by you for my sawmill location.

There is a hill to the side of my house that i can access from the high side and the low side.  i plan on putting 4x4 or 6x6 stakes into the ground and cutting them level for a mill base.  that or concrete blocks, either way...  I was thinking of putting the mill halfway up the hill so i can approach the mill from the high side and have an easier time rolling logs onto it with a couple small ramps and a cant hook.  its not a steep hill so i dont think i would lose control of them and have them overrun the mill but it seems like this would be the best way for me to get larger logs than my tractor can easily lift onto the bed.  

thoughts?

[Don P]

My mill is slightly below the road so I can offload and then roll in easily. The word hill gives me a little pause, you never want to be chased down by a log especially between a log and steel so just keep that in mind as you look at the site. There will be a pile of logs on that hill from time to time no matter what you think about keeping it low and slow now ;D. That said gravity can be your friend, use it when you can.

[SawyerTed]

A log deck is the way to go.  If the hill isn't too high or you have room to roll logs down the hill on to the deck.  Two or three 6x6s or 8x8s should make a good deck.  

You mentioned concrete blocks as a base for your mill.  Blocks may tend to crack and break as logs are rolled onto the mill.  It would be better to use concrete to make footings and use 6x6s as you mentioned. It seems that most put posts in the ground and lay timbers lengthwise on the posts and under the rails of the mill.  

I think my log deck has about 4" of drop over 16'.  It's enough when the logs are  round.  Logs don't roll down the deck on their own, usually, but are relatively easy to roll with a couple of cant hooks.  If they want to roll on their own, some wooden chocks keep them in place. When a log has sweep, it takes more effort.  It is 16' so I can put several logs on it at a time.  

[barbender]

Don, gravity is one of those things that is "a good servant and a cruel master"😁 It amazes me how even at this point of my life, how often I catch myself working against gravity rather than with it. One of these days I'll learn😁