Making it through another year '21-'23

[beenthere]

Pics are not showing the face notch, nor the hinge left in place. Maybe the next one you cut that way, you will show them. tks

[Old Greenhorn]

Well I rarely have need for this cut so it might be 5 years. There are lots of videos out there you cna look at. Everyone adds their own variations and some insist it's 'the right way'. ;D I figure if the tree lays down where you need it, no damage was done, nobody got hurt, and you don't have extra cleanup work, then you did it 'the right way'.
Here's a fella that pretty much does it the way I did, but his hinge is thicker. He says in the video notes 'I have no idea why anyone would use this cut'. I thought that was a telling remark. I also note he is wearing no gear and for a guy with 5,000+ followers, you would think he'd know better.

Tongue and Groove Tree Felling Technique - YouTube


Here is another guy who seems to make his living at it and his cut 'fails' but the tree goes where it should. He puts in a long bottom cut on the front of his weird notch. His intent is to get the tenon to drop into the mortise. In order for that to happen, the hinge has to break clear first and I for one cannot figure out why having the tenon drop in is so important to some folks. By the time that happens the tree is pretty much on the ground. Perhaps it is to keep it from rolling after it lays down?

Trees That Don't Like Hinge Cutting - Tongue & Groove Tree Felling - YouTube

 Lastly, I note, all these videos I have found show folks dropping trees in the direction of lean which should be cut and dried with a standard cut.  The tree I took had side lean and maybe a little back lean. It was the side lean I was concerned about, that was in an unsafe ($$) direction. So the tenon was just insurance and in fact the tree did swing to the left a bit, but the tenon held it where it was safe. I missed the exact target spot by 1' to the left, but I was still right in the pocket which was 3' wide. Yes, it's a silly thing, but the whole cut only took about 2-3 minutes at the long side and some of that time was tapping wedges to drive it over against the lean weight.

[Don P]

That is cool, my first thought when I saw the pic was that you were cutting a jacking pocket. I could see it on maybe a steep sidehill drop. My biggest concern with anything leaning is a barber chair. That looks like it is necking down and concentrating the stress?

[thecfarm]

A very interesting cut.

[Nebraska]

Thanks I learned a little there.

[Old Greenhorn]

.... That looks like it is necking down and concentrating the stress?

Sorry Don, not following you there. What is necking down?

[aigheadish]

I think I've seen you discuss this kind of cut before, Tom, and it's pretty cool. I'm not very experienced with plunge cuts yet but I thought of going out to the 20 foot tall Ash stump I've got out in the yard to mess around with some plunges, just to cut some holes in the stump to make it look interesting. 

I'll have to keep this cut in mind sometime. Do the wings of the stump ever break apart? 

[Old Greenhorn]

Not that I have ever seen. However, I do notice a lot of cutters make that tenon too thin and that fails (see the previous videos). I like to keep that tenon at least 3" wide (a bar width). On a tree like the one I cut, it's basically thirds. One third on each side and one third for the tenon.

 Be careful learning plunge cutting. Start your entry with the bottom half of the bar nose and feed it in until the tip is fully covered, then rotate the saw head to get you on the angle you want and push through. Many folks try to stab straight in and that is frustrating and dangerous. Wear your gear too. ;D

[aigheadish]

Yes sir! Thank you for the tips. 

I was bucking the tree I knocked over so we could move it to the fire pile a few days ago and due to the way the tree was laying on the ground I plunged a couple spots and pretty quickly experienced the problem with starting with the top side of the bar. It wasn't terrifyingly close to hitting me in the face when it kicked back but it was close to terrifyingly close... 

[Old Greenhorn]

I should have mentioned, not all chain styles like bore cutting. Safety chains are terrible for it and skip tooth can be a challenge. I used an XCut on this one and boring was the easiest I have ever had. I love that chain. 8)

[Old Greenhorn]

Well I never thought a silly little play time cut like that would generate so much interest. As I said, won't likely need it again for a long while and I had left the stick as it fell so I went out and did an autopsy Dendrotopsy to document it if it comes up again. First I took some more photos of the stump as it lays but I began to see all the mistakes I made, and there were several. Sloppy work and I blame it on COVID.
This is the top of the stump as it fell:


 

Then I cut the stick off and put the thing back together best I could. This is the back of the stump with the clearance plug re-inserted.


 

And the front of the stump with plug and notch put back. 



 

 This is a re-enactment of just before the hinge broke (as planned):


 

I cut the stump off flush so I can push snow over it later. I kept the whole thig, I have no idea why and set it up by the log pile as a corner post of sorts. This time it went back together a little better.



 

 It's EWP so not even good for my stove. It was interesting taking the photos because it revealed to me a long list of errors I will have to try to remember if I ever do this again. In fact, I am tempted to try another one just to see if I can get it right. I'm glad you guys found my play time amusing, I had no idea.

[Ljohnsaw]

You keep saying a long list of errors.  Can you elaborate?  All I see is you snipped the hinge on one side (bottom of the top picture).  Nothing got broken and no one killed or injured so looks good to me!

[Old Greenhorn]

Yeah, I was afraid somebody would call me on that. ;D
 Well I am always looking to make things right and avoid errors that could bite me next time around. So here is my list:
1) I overcut the bottom cut on the notch (bypass) so it didn't match the dropping face cut. This made the hinge break earlier than it should.
2) My tenon cuts were not straight, they had a wave. I don't know why, but both cuts seemed to have matching waves. I should have relived them a bit because as the tenon swung up, it bound in the mortise on those wave areas.
3) I clipped the hinge on the side you mentioned. There was some left that held OK, but...

 The nice thing about this cut is that it gives a lot of security for the extra work/time. If you miss a small detail, and I missed a few you are likely still covered. The only thing I have seen fail on these, as I mentioned before is having a tenon too thin that fails. On this one, I was watching how long it actually took to get the tree on the ground because 'everybody says' it's a waste of time... blah.. blah.... blah. This cut did take  about 3 minutes with wedging, but as noted, I was a little sloppy in my haste.
 Posting things like this on the internet, one has to hold some responsibility to represent it clearly, lest some yahoo homeowner in suburbia with his brand new electric chainsaw he bought from Lowes last weekend decides he can do this with a tree 2' from his picture window. Try this out in the woods on a tree that doesn't matter so you learn what is important first. For me , it was a frivolous thing done in complete safety given the exposures. The hazard was to the left rear of the tree as it fell, and the rest were just keeper trees I could live without. YMMV

[JD Guy]

Thank You for the follow up explanations. Much clearer to me now, however I don't know if I would have the occasion to use this cut. I'm happy to know about it nonetheless!

[Wlmedley]

I've got a white oak that is starting to die. I plan to try that cutting method on it.It won't hurt anything if it doesn't work but if it does I can show these guys around here how smart I am  :laugh:

[beenthere]

Don't see this technique as better or quicker than a simple notch, bore cut to establish a good hinge, and then the back cut while using wedges (if needed). 

The tongue and groove do establish a fall line, but with a weak hinge, which way along that fall line may be a question that eventually gets sorted out.   :

[Old Greenhorn]

It's just another arrow in the quiver, and a weird one at that. ;D But you have the right idea, do it someplace it doesn't matter. Watch the normal stuff, look up, etc. Keep the tenon 3" wide if you can given the tree size. Fun cuts for amusement. I have simple needs. :D
 I have another one called a 'wheel cut' used for bucking large logs when working with equipment. I really have been dying to try that one out, but I can't find an excuse yet. But I will keep looking.

 Beenthere, It worked for me. I don't chose a 'weak hinge' but for this tree, which had already been topped out for clearance, I needed a lighter hinge. There was back and side lean in a direction of hazard. Also I needed something to occupy my mind for a few minutes, so I decided to use this method.  One wedge on each side and it just took a few hits to get the weight over the top and she fell easy. I always worry about hinges failing on EWP when I really need them most. I wanted a little extra security is all. I don't think there is a 'right or wrong' with this stuff, just experience and feel. That's my take anyway. I'm only 67 and still have a lot of learning in front of me yet.

[thecfarm]

I've cut a lot of EWP. Most 3 feet across and up. But small ones too. I never had a hinge issue. 
Unless it was my fault.

[Old Greenhorn]

Yeah Ray, good point. I never have any issues with a tree over 18" or so, it's always the smaller ones that can give me headaches when I need to put them where they didn't plan on going. In fact I think I just realized that maybe I have taken it on as a personal challenge to send these trees against their lean and find new ways to do it for no particular reason whatsoever except to get better at it. The mushroom trees started me on this, some aren't even heavy enough to fall over unless they have a clear path. I have a cut I use where I do a standard notch, then bore through the center of the stem at the middle of the notch and out the back, then I can drive a wedge in from the back to hold it there until I made the two back cuts on each side then lift and drive it over.  A lot of work for a small tree, but doing these trees means dropping them where I can just hack up all the top branches into mulch sized and leave them in the woods. So if it falls on a road, path, or open area, I have to drag the brush into the woods and hack it up. If I drop it in the woods, I save a lot of time.
 Full size trees with full width face cuts are rarely a problem especially hardwoods. I don't cut a lot of EWP, I hate the sap. :D Except, of course, dead Ash which can't be trusted in any way.

[Old Greenhorn]

 Well, still slow going doing doing a bit each day. Saturday my former employer had an open house and invited the retirees. This was their feeble attempt to make up for no retirement parties for 2.5 years, introducing the newest Site Manager to the public and employees and the HR manger could show the new site manager how great she was. I went out of curiosity and to see or or two old friends. Only one other retiree showed up. A friend I still call every couple of weeks anyway. They gave me a $100 amazon gift card, I don't know why. I hate amazon and never buy from them. Now I have no choice, I guess. Might get some X-cut chains or something. I only knew about 30% of the folks there, turnover has been high. They claim they can't hire enough folks. The issues run deep. The new site manager did not attend because she has covid.
 While I was there I got a text from my son who was at Olive day with the boys, 40 minutes away. Sounded like a better party, so I headed that way. When I finally got there the boys were at the BB gun range having fun. I ran into my daughter and a lot more old friends and neighbors than I did at the previous party. I headed home after another hour or so. Just as I was leaving, the wife called. Car broke down where she was doing a show. SO i drove back another 40 minutes, drove her car home and she followed me in the truck. Broken belt, bad tensioner. Not too bad to fix. I left it for tomorrow. Sunday I got that table wrapped up for transport and delivery and messed around the house a bit. I took the wife out to my daughters and they toured the farm stand circuit. It drizzled and spittled all day.
 Today I have to get the top in the back of the truck, deliver and install it. I loaded the benches and legs in the back seat yesterday. I hope the client is happy with it. it's an hour and a half each way, but through nice country.
 It's grey and overcast today, but no rain on the radar for the first half of the day anyway. That's a big help.
 Time to really get back in the groove. Delivery today, wife's car tomorrow, milling on Wednesday.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well the last couple of days have not been a lot of fun. I have mentioned at least once in this thread that painting is my least favorite thing to do. I would like to rescind that thought at this point and say that auto repair is very certainly my least favorite thing to do, BY FAR.
I mentioned that my wife's van had an issue that took it down. After I delivered the table I got home in the late afternoon, pulled the front of it in the shop and got it up on jack stands and pulled the tire off and got started. Well it turned out, it was not the idler pullet or tensioner as I had guessed, it was the water pump. Well let me explain for those not cursed with the side-ass engines in vans and say that there is ZERO clearance for any work to be done. Although I hate it, i have done everything from transmission repairs to pistons, bearings and the whole nine yards. I can do it, I just hate it. I am also not really 'gifted' with the skills to be quick and proper. Through everything I have done over 4 or 5 decades I have NEVER had a job as miserable as this. When I finally did get to the water pump, the only tool I could fit to take off the bolts was a box wrench, no way to get a ratchet or anything else in there. OH, and the swing on that wrench was 1/4 turn OR LESS. It took me hours to get the bolts out, literally. The muscles in my neck and arms were screaming from the contortions I had to execute. When I finally had all (5) bolts out I learned that you need to lower the engine to get the water pump to slide out. Really? I mean who designs crap like this?! A water pump?! Geez. I want to kill these guys if I ever meet than at a party.
Anyway, I don't buy parts until I have it all taken apart to get the whole picture, so it was late by the time I went for parts and could not get the belt, but I got the pump. By the time I got home and had dinner I was too pooped to keep working. It wasn't the work, it was the frustration, I think.
This morning, I hit it again in zen mode, and got the new pump in, 1/8 turn at a time on each screw, but it took a while for sure. Anyway, I got it in and celebrated by going to pick up the belt. Getting the belt IN was another adventure but I got it done. I buttoned everything else up, tested it and al is good, no leaks. But now that the godawful noise from the bad water pump is gone, we have another more subtle noise from either the idler, tensioner, or alternator. I am going to wait until it fails (and my neck muscles heal). Dang but I am a bit sore tonight, but it's done.
I took it on a test ride down to Bill's to return his impact driver and the 10mm ratcheting box wrench I borrowed (and filled up 2 growlers while I was there). The wife took it to the farm to pick us our CSA stuff and she was happy enough to grab me a 30 pack while she was in town. I spent the rest of the afternoon putting away tools and cleaning up the shop getting ready for FINALLY moving machines up and down. Maybe that will happen this weekend.
Tomorrow I think I will head to the mill. Bill needs 2x8's to build the gable wall on the shop and get it closed in before the weather comes. I also have some cedar down there I want to get milled and stickered in my garage this fall to dry for a project I have in mind. Bill also dropped off some firewood logs yesterday, so I need to buck all that up. Lots to do that will help me put this COVID fog I still have in the rearview mirror.
 During a rest break yesterday I made a call to a company about and hour and a half away that makes wood furnaces, stoves, and boilers. I talked to a a knowledgeable fella and after a bit of knowledge sharing, we settled on them building a woodstove for me without an order or deposit and they would call me when it's done. I can come up and either decide to buy it or not. They will have no issue finding another buyer, they go as soon as they are built apparently. It's 2,500 bucks I don't really want to spend, but I need a better stove in the shop than what I have and I do have the cash, but it will drive me down further than I wanted to go. I'll have to build and sell a bunch of stuff to catch up I guess.
Tomorrow is another day.

[aigheadish]

Car work does indeed often suck.

We had a Town & Country minivan that liked to throw a belt every time it hit a big puddle, thusly shutting the whole van down. The first time this happened the (ex)wife was going somewhere in the rain and called me. I went out to find it was the serpentine belt and I had to figure out, in the rain, how to put it back on. For whatever reason it ended up taking me hours to figure out the clearance, tensioner, and all that junk. I was cold, soaked, and mad, but the belt was back on and the van worked. We didn't realize this was a rain/puddle problem for maybe another time or two, so I got some more practice at replacing it several times over the next few months. At some point we connected the dots and tried avoiding puddles, but I'll be dogged if I didn't get pretty good at replacing the belt. I think by the end of it I could do it in about 15 minutes. Part of the deal, if I recall, was finding the exact right tool. 

I also had a car with electric windows and the drivers side window would jump the track pretty frequently. I couldn't stop risking it since I like my windows down, but it took popping the door panel off, reaching into the door frame to move around the window frame tack, and rolling the window up while holding the track just right. I didn't have the 300 bucks they wanted to replace the whole works, but I did have the money to buy a screwdriver to leave in the door pocket for when the window jumped the track again. At the end of that one I could almost pull the door panel, roll the window back up, and put everything back together at a stop light. 

But it all was a pain in the butt. Bolts and clearances are always too tight or stuck and nothing makes as much simple sense as it should. 

Glad to hear you got it working again, and got some beers in the process!

[Nebraska]

Don't forget on the new stove price your old stove will bring a decent figure especially with that catalytic burner. Fuel is  going to be tough on folks this winter, it has some value as well...
Glad that fog is lifting.....

[aigheadish]

Good call on selling the old stove Nebraska. Tom, I'da tossed your current stove in the back of the RV at the right price, that thing'd be perfect for my little shop. 

[Old Greenhorn]

 Selling used wood stoves around here can be rough, there are lots of them. I have been searching the used ones for a couple of years looking for a better stove. Anything that's good is high priced, a little too high for a used stove if you ask me.
 I lost the catalytic combustor at the end of last season and I just don't feel like replacing it again just to sell the stove. I'll list it cheap enough and hopefully find a buyer, but finding somebody who wants to do the repair will be tough. Most folks want plug and play these days.
 We'll see what happens there, one thing at a time. I have too much stuff backed up right now to worry that far ahead. The money I might make off that stove will barely cover the sales tax on the new one anyway.

 Yesterday evening I was bucking up some of the firewood logs with the 562, man can that saw throw chips. I am wondering how much of it is the X-Cut chain and how much is the saw. I am going to get a X-cut on my 450 so I can see what it is. I think it's the tooth from more than anything. At any rate that 562 is a fun saw to run.
 Right now I am trying to talk myself into heading to the mill but I'm still a little sore from yesterday's tasks.