Question about logging contact

[Habitatguy]

Greetings, hoping to find an answer to a question I have about getting my woods logged.  35ish acres of mixed hardwood and have been meeting with multiple loggers to get some 2-3 acre clearcuts, widen existing trails, and some select cutting throughout.  Finally found a guy that seemed really excited to cut and signed a contract with him in June of this year.  
At that time he said he was going to start cutting on a week or two and didn't show up.  I called him and he said I was next on the list but didn't show up.  
I've called him the first of each month and he always says he'll be there in a week but never shows up or calls to say whays going on. And I know he's been cutting other jobs.  
A different logger wants to cut it December 1.  
My question is, am I wrong for telling him to forget about my timber and having the other guy cut for me?  The contract I signed said he's got until August 2022 to cut.  I'm afraid August will come and go without him showing up.  Nothing in the contract about canceling or what would happen if either side decides to exit.  What would be the best route moving forward?

I'm hoping to get cut sooner than later to move forward on some habitat work for hunting and recreating on the property.  
Thanks!

[Southside]

Well, without seeing the contract you are probably stuck with things until next August.  Did he pay you up front or is this on shares? As far as what to do.  A conversation about not wanting him to do the harvest is about all you have, but I would not bet money on it going anywhere.  

For what it's worth, anyone worth their salt is slammed busy right now, so that could be a positive thing.  Maybe he has poor communication skills.  Did you do any follow up with his previous clients?  

[Habitatguy]

No payment made but it did say X amount per ton for hardwood pulp, x amount for softwood pulp etc.  He came out to walk the woods with me before saying he wanted to cut it.  Then once more after I marked it.  I've heard good things about his work but very unhappy about getting the run around for when he's coming.  
Agree that he's probably busy which is probably a good thing.  Just wish he'd be busy here.  

[Southside]

Likely every other contract he has wishes he was busy there right now too.  Not making excuses for the guy but getting help these days, especially anyone who will work and in the woods, has become a full time exercise in futility.  Maybe his production has dropped off for lack of help, impossible to find trucking, etc.    

[sawguy21]

If he is serious he should be keeping the lines open and upfront about the delays. Maybe he has too much on his plate at the moment but maybe he is a piker. Give him a deadline to respond, if he doesn't follow through walk away and let him yell.

[IndiLina]

I can't offer advice, but am worried about ending up in a similar position.   
Contacted a forester in July who said he wanted the job. Checked in with him again after a month or so and he said he was still interested, but working on larger jobs. Haven't heard from him since. 
Which I get. This parcel isn't huge. But hasnt been logged in at least 50 years and has >30" walnut and oak.   
Probably going to say to heck with them and gradually log and mill it myself over the years. Rather not risk getting stuck in a contract when I'm bottom of his list. 

[Old Greenhorn]

Well, I feel for you. But we don't know where you are, so it's hard to get a picture of what the market is like in your area. Obviously the guy is not very forthcoming with the cause of these 'delays' so maybe his ability to deal with clients is not up to snuff. Some guys just suck it up and push through, but never share that with the client. It's not a good way to go IMHO, but that's the way some guys are. I am not a logger, but I work with them, nor am I a forester, but I work with them. I connect a lot of folks from different circles together for their mutual benefit. When I am advising someone what questions to ask when they hire someone for tree work, logging, and other types of work, I tell them 'If the guy says he can start on it next week, beware". Nobody around here worth his/her salt will be available to a new client in less than several months, at best. If they can take on a brand new job in a week, it means they have no backlog and in this climate, that ain't right. I am a little piddling one man operation and I can't get all the work done that I have.
 SO having said that, perhaps he was going to squeeze you in because your site was between two other jobs he had and it worked for him, or something else was going on in his mind. But you did sign the contract, so he has that august date in his mind as a deadline, not the "next few weeks" that you have in your head. 
 Nobody here can tell you what to do because there are too many details that we don't know, probably over 25 major questions we would want answered before the picture was clear. However, if it were me, I would have a very frank conversation with the guy and tell him that if he can't give you a date and actually show up, then you will walk to another logger. This assumes you have no liability for bailing out on a signed agreement and you did agree to that August date so I assume you have a liability on that score. Be honest and ask the guy for the real reasons for the delay. Maybe he is watching market prices and waiting for the right time to cut your trees, maybe the market dropped out and he decided to hold on for a bit until it recovered. Lots of things affect the way guys will juggle their jobs, markets, weather, location, terrain, ground conditions, seasons, etc. Maybe he is waiting until the ground freezes? But yes, he should have just told you that. Sounds like the guy just has too much work and having trouble getting it all done. If you read through the logging forum here you will begin to get a feel for what loggers are up against. It is not an easy way to make a living. I am not defending the guy at all, but the devil is always in the details.
 Good Luck.

[nativewolf]

You signed a contract that gives him til August 2022 to cut it.  He's got til then to harvest it.  Does he have an obligation to tell you what he is doing elsewhere?  I can't imagine it.  

It is a pretty simple clause.  Why would you have that in there if it was not acceptable to you.  As a forest manager I'd enforce if a client tried to do what you are proposing.  If you didn't like it you shouldn't have signed a contract with that clause.  August 2022 is just around the corner, relax.  If you have great timber he'll be there before mud season starts.  If you don't he'll be there after mud season but before August.  Very very rarely will a logger let a contract lapse.  

Re communication- most loggers are very bad at it and that is one reason they are logging.  Just my very brutal assessment, he likely does not enjoy communication re contracts that are already signed.  It is hard enough working on contracts that are not signed. Furthermore things like weather, pricing, equipment and a whole host of other factors may be moving his schedule around like a yo yo.  It's very hard to keep everyone appraised on any sort of  schedule because he's really just focused on getting logs on the ground and sold.  Just relax.  Do not break a contract, if he sues he could not only mess up the other logger but any harvesting plans you have and you could be out money and still not have the work done.  

@IndiLina - wish you were closer to Virginia.  Best of luck

[thecfarm]

When I am advising someone what questions to ask when they hire someone for tree work, logging, and other types of work, I tell them 'If the guy says he can start on it next week, beware". Nobody around here worth his/her salt will be available to a new client in less than several months, at best.   
 

Read this more than once!! I stand by this rule. Be it a mechanic, Doctor, unless you are dying, :( contractor and so on. If a person is not busy there is a reason they are not busy. They are no good!!!

[Kodiakmac]

Re communication- most loggers are very bad at it and that is one reason they are logging

Bingo!  And any trucker under 40 acts as if he's going to catch the Wuhan flu from a simple phone conversation.  They are better at answering texts.  Maybe it gives them something to do while they're driving. :laugh:

[WDH]

You signed a contract giving him the right to cut the timber and he has until August 2022 to get it done.   He, and only he, has the legal right to cut that timber between now and August 2022.  He can do that anytime that he chooses between now and 2022.   No other logger that I know would cut that timber knowing it is under contract to another logger.  

It does not matter that you want it done now, or that you have other things you want to get done now on the property, or that you are getting the runaround on when he will show up.  He has sole rights to cut the timber and he has until August 2022 to get it done based on what you have told us.  

[kantuckid]

Re communication- most loggers are very bad at it and that is one reason they are logging

Bingo!  And any trucker under 40 acts as if he's going to catch the Wuhan flu from a simple phone conversation.  They are better at answering texts.  Maybe it gives them something to do while they're driving. :laugh:

I stand by them as not liking phones much, which is an understatement for sure.
 Texts- are you kidding :D Maybe a few young ones. 
OP you made the deal and there's no honest nor legal way to avoid that reality. I have been cheated twice by loggers I had made verbal agreements with wherein they sold my timber then I got zilch. A lawyer would have cost too much to recover and small claims on people who don't have much is not always worth the trouble-it was my fault for dealing with bad business people in both cases. 
Lat Dec I made a verbal agreement to buy about $3,500 of sawed EWP wall logs and it never happened and they sold the timber elsewhere plus never told me they also sold the mill they were to cut my D-logs on. live and learn. Got a new logger who said he had the timber and would saw it but now he never answers his phone-real world stuff. 

[Jeff]

In hindsight you should have required an upfront non-refundable deposit. That way if he did not fulfill the contract you would have had some compensation for that. Coulda woulda shoulda though.

[Texas Ranger]

It's a contract.  A couple of things I look at.  You are a small land owner to a lot of loggers, they will "fit you in" and lock you in so they have you on reserve.  If there is a monetary amount in the contract, they could be playing the market with what you have.  The volume and value of your tract and your requirements may be marginal for the logger. 

Lots of variables, a lot depending on your location and local market.

[OH logger]

If you could weasel out of the contract what's the point of the contract?  There's 2 parties a contract is there to protect. I've signed many a contract that has stipulations of when it can or can't be logged before the contract ends (usually around deer season) 👎

[Kodiakmac]

"Maybe a few young ones. "

That's all I've got around here. :embarassed:

[B.C.C. Lapp]

He has till August.  Sorry but till then he doesn't owe you any explanations.
I get this now and again.  One land owner kept calling me because he wanted his cut done long before deer season opened.   I had other jobs to tackle first.   He didn't get what he wanted.
Which job I do next depends on the following.
First, is the contract winding down?  If I need to get it done then I will.
Second, is weather.   Some ground just cant be worked in certain seasons or with to much rain.
If its been very wet, like now, I'll go to a job that has good ground.
Last is market, say, if hard maple is way up and I have a job loaded with it you can bet that's where you'll find me if possible.  
The land owners wishes matter to me, and I'll do what I can to make them happy, but withen reason and business, my business, comes first.  

[Tacotodd]

BCC, you'd think that the hunters would love you logging while they are there. Heavy equipment while working being a "dinner bell" for them anyway.

As long as they practice safety and know what a safe "degree" of a shooting window is, all should be good. People don't realize that stuff AT ALL. Being raised by my USMC father did wonders for me, I just wish that he was still here.

[dgdrls]

Most contracts are scope, fee & schedule

as others have pointed out, the logger controls the schedule portion of the contract and you agreed to the pulp prices.
You got the scope portion.

Keep us updated,

D

[WV Sawmiller]

   What does your lawyer say/suggest?

  I'd call the guy and tell him since he had not been able to perform as he has repeatedly promised and others can perform now, you'd like him to sign a release from the contract and see if he either starts the work now or signs a release or holds you to the August 2022 deadline. At least that will help you define more about his character.

[customsawyer]

Why did you give him until Aug. 2022 in the contract if you want it done sooner? Until then I see it as his wood not yours, as you have signed a contract selling it to him.

  What does your lawyer say/suggest?

 I'd call the guy and tell him since he had not been able to perform as he has repeatedly promised and others can perform now, you'd like him to sign a release from the contract and see if he either starts the work now or signs a release or holds you to the August 2022 deadline. At least that will help you define more about his character.

If you ask him for a release I think it will say more about your character then what his reaction will say about his. Keep in mind I bet he talks with most of the loggers in your area on a weekly basis. If you ask him to sign a release and he does, I'd bet you will have trouble getting it cut by anyone. On a few occasions most of us have had to fire a customer due to crazy demands. When I do I contact some of the other sawyers in my area and give them a fair warning and they do the same for me. Customers can get a bad reputation the same as a business.

[Firewoodjoe]

Another vote on it's his unit august. Period. We sign 6 month to 3 year contracts all the time. A good logger is busy and can't come quick. Needs work lined up all the time. Many reasons have been stated but I'll add another twist. Some of our contracts have a start date and a end date but the end date is never, as long as it's a open sale. Being if machines and activities are still going on. State sales are that way. As long as we are "there" it's our time line. We've moved one machine cut a few trees every so often just to keep the contract. 🤷‍♂️ A person has to be careful when signing a contract. Both parties do. 

[WV Sawmiller]

Jake,

   I agree its legally his wood till August but my thoughts/suggestion were based on the OP signed the contract with the understanding/promise that, while he signed a contract for August, at the same time he promised to start in a week and has repeatedly promised the same thing every time he has been called. I would do as I suggested based on his verbal promise and see if he tries to honor it as best he can at this late date, or sticks to the written contract. Which is more important to him - his word or his signature on a piece of paper?

   I agree the August completion date was ill advised but the man said he'd start next week. I see no moral issue with asking him to release me from a contract he has failed to honor as promised. If he is a weasel who says one thing and sneaks in different verbiage in a written contract at least you will confirm it.

    If he holds you till the August date how much will you actually trust his tonnage reports when he actually goes to pay?

[Southside]

If the bank gives you a 30 year note on your house and you tell the banker you are going to pay it off early, can he start calling you after 2 years and ask you to pay up now, because it's better for him? 

That's basically the same scenario. 

[WV Sawmiller]

SS,

  My banks and other lenders have always complained when I paid off something early so I'm not worried about that but I am not the one who repeatedly promised the earlier delivery/completion date and now avoids answering the phone or returning phone calls when I do not do what I told the OP.

  I repeat - legally I believe the logger owns the wood till the August completion date. If I were the customer I'd accept that and write it off as another lesson learned (I've learned a lot). I'd expect the contract to contain the minimum acceptable terms and conditions and the man's word the be the realistic terms. Another thing I have learned is an honorable businessman will release you from a commitment if he cannot produce as promised (Verbally or in writing). If the logger has incurred costs to this point I'd see nothing wrong with the logger telling the customer and offering to sign a release if those costs were reimbursed. Then the ball is in the landowners court.

  Is the logger an astute business man or a deliberate liar? I can't answer that - only he can. The logger makes deals like this every day/week. For the customer/OP it is likely a once in a lifetime deal. Did the logger put the August completion date in the contract as a "worse case" scenario to protect himself fully expecting to start within 2 weeks as verbally communicated or did he sneak it in hoping the customer would not catch it? Did something change after he made his verbal promise? If so why hasn't he just told the customer what happened and updated his commitment to one he realistically expects to meet?

  I have made promises that it turned out I could not keep and when I did I contacted the other party and let them know why (Weather, equipment breakdowns, illness, injury, etc) I could not produce as I promised and I'd do everything I could to meet the earliest reasonable completion date and I'd keep the customer informed. I have had and accepted similar delays from my customer as long as they communicated their issues to me. I think we all have.

  When I accept a contract for my services, which for me are nearly verbal, I give the customer an expected start day and tell him clearly it is a flexible date mostly based on the weather then a few days ahead I call and we confirm the date. If he cannot meet then I move him back into the queue and move to the next customer and typically my oldest backlog customer who can saw that day/those days is the one I do then I repeat till I have cleared my backlog. I don't have the long backlogs of many months to years as have been described here and I understand that makes things more difficult but common courtesy and basic communication with the customer is still the same.