Opinions wanted: Economy of a mill on my property

[47sawdust]

''they're a bit nuts''.......you came to the right place ,the dog will fit in nicely.


Yes to sawmill.

[Klicker]

Anyone that names there dog Archer must be a trad shooter 8) 8) 8)

[WV Sawmiller]

   Maybe they should be the official FF mascot. :D

[JMR-TBAY]

Anyone that names there dog Archer must be a trad shooter 8) 8) 8)

No affiliation actually. We just liked the name. My wife wouldn't go for any of the long range shooting industry names...Tikka, Lapua, Hodgedon, etc lol

[GAB]

Not having to race to town to buy that 6 and a quarter by 3 and 5/16 beam is a definite plus :D..just make your own.

The best you could probably get in town is a 4 x 8.
Then you would have to somehow whittle it down to what you need.
Might as well start with a log on your sawmill and cut your running around time losses.
GAB

[Tristen]

Hire a sawyer.  Someone comes in with a portable mill every two years or so and mills all the logs you have piled up.    

I know the first thing people say is " if i hire a sawyer 5 times i could have bought my own SMALL mill"  and that is probably true.  However the time you would save is way more valuable to you.   New property owner with 153 acres has his hands full.   

You trying to gain the experience of a sawyer with a portable mill, would take up a lot of time.  Take that time an do the things you enjoy.  The sawyer with the portable mill enjoys his work, that is why he dose it.  Sounds to me like you have a lot of other things to take up your time on your new land.     Just my opinion, just trying to help. 

[Lostinmn]

I had a similar quandary to yours.  There is really two calculations like others have mentioned, one is more quantitative oriented. The value of you time sawing vs doing something else productive, cost of mill and support equipment vs cost to purchase lumber and/or have someone one else mill lumber for you on site and etc. Crunching the numbers so to speak.

The second is much more qualitative, how much do you enjoy working with equipment, learning and spending time outside acquiring, milling and drying lumber.  As you already acquired a few items for working the land, this element may be a big one for you I'm guessing.  This is really I think the deciding factor for most.

For me it is not cost effective to mill my own lumber, but the qualitative aspects won out.  Its how I choose to spend my free time as a enjoyable hobby (you can only golf and fish so much!).  If I have a free weekend, I really enjoy being out in the woods on the tractor, or making a live edge bench for next to the river for evening sitting.

So maybe crunch the numbers, but really think about how you want to spend your time in the next 1-10 years.  

If you do decide to mill, I would suggest considering the Wood-Mizer.  I did a ton of research on operation, support and long term value preposition (hold value for resale, quality to last, etc.) and decided a few extra bucks up front if you can swing it is well worth it in the long run. The quality mills hold their value if you may resale (ask any one on here if you get hooked on making saw dust you will soon be thinking mill upgrades look awful nice at some point), and if you keep long term the overall building quality and accessibility of a quality dealer support network for parts and upgrades has real value to it)  

My two cents (and that's all its worth  :D)

Good luck and enjoy your new playland paradise!

[aigheadish]

Man, what a piece of land! So lovely! I have a small slow moving creek and I'd love to have something like what you've got, even with beaver problems! 

I contemplated getting a sawmill to make lumber of some of the dead ash and other trees on my 6 acres. When I really started looking around at the comparatively few trees I have versus the several thousands of dollars that a mill would run me (on the very cheap side) I decided I could better spend my money elsewhere. I'll chainsaw mill the wood I want or, unfortunately, buy it from the store. I do plan to turn a shed into a wood drying kiln over the course of the next few months and I imagine I'll start CSM'ing quite a bit more once that's in place. 

That excavator will be great for you! A heads up on the backhoe... Looking at your property and the trees you are messing with, my guess is you'll want a full size backhoe (unless you really are going to do EVERYTHING you want done with the excavator). While I've never messed around on a Kubota (and quick attachments would be great!) I've heard that a lot of work can be frustrating because they just aren't heavy/big enough. I have a New Holland lb75b with 95hp and it is big enough to do a lot of work. That being said I also plan to get a Massey Furguson 230 here in a month or two, to have the pto (and some attachments), a box blade, and a bigger mowing deck than my small yard tractor mower. The tractor should help do some of the finish work that the backhoe isn't good at.

Good luck with your property, it looks like you could have some fun!

[JMR-TBAY]

Part of the reason I see for needing a mill, is simply that I plan to be sawmilling as I go. I don't have a large volume of sawable trees that I will be cutting down immediately. Most of what needs to be cleared for the house site is junk. Maybe crappy firewood at best.





If I were to hire a sawyer, they'd need to make several trips out as I'm able to pulling in good trees and figure out what kind of lumber/beams I need. Also, I'd like to by able to mill the material needed to build the woodshed and whatever other structures are needed to facilitate drying and processing.

I tend to lean in the direction of doing things myself, with the exception of very skilled trades.

In the spring time my creek turns into a torrent. It's fed from a small spring fed lake that has been stocked with speckled trout.




By the end of summer the beavers had pretty much completely stopped the flow at the top





On the to do list this summer will be to install a beaver baffler ie. Beaver deceiver.  It's just a small culvert/pvc pipe that gets installed through the dam. The intake of the pipe is submerged and sufficiently "upstream" so that the beavers don't hear or feel the flow of the water going through the pipe. They repair the dam around the pipe, but are unable to figure out the rest.

[WV Sawmiller]

  I don't want to hurt your feeling but I think we must have smarter or harder working beavers here in the USA than you do. :D

   I have seen some very impressive solutions to attempts to drain beaver dams. Don't sell them short. ;)

[JMR-TBAY]

 I don't want to hurt your feeling but I think we must have smarter or harder working beavers here in the USA than you do. :D

  I have seen some very impressive solutions to attempts to drain beaver dams. Don't sell them short. ;)

Beaver deceivers are a fairly well proven method of defeating dams. Lots of info available via google. 
Beavers operate purely on instinct. The sound of rushing water and feeling the flow is what drives them to create dams. Remove those two things and their instincts don't kick in. They are rather primitive when it all boils down. 

[WV Sawmiller]

   I studied Wildlife Biology and one of our sessions was installing a 3 log drain in a dam which will have limited effectiveness. I have seen pictures of devices similar to your picture and the beavers first stopped up every opening in the chain link fencing used to protect the drain. When the owner kept breaking that out and restoring the flow the beavers finally made an entire horseshoe shaped dam completely around the drain.

[JMR-TBAY]

  I studied Wildlife Biology and one of our sessions was installing a 3 log drain in a dam which will have limited effectiveness. I have seen pictures of devices similar to your picture and the beavers first stopped up every opening in the chain link fencing used to protect the drain. When the owner kept breaking that out and restoring the flow the beavers finally made an entire horseshoe shaped dam completely around the drain.

I'm hoping that in my situation, with an extended length intake it would be successful. Especially because the beaver do have entire lake to habitate.

Should be a fun experiment never the less.

[btulloh]

I was skeptical but I have personally seen one work over a couple year period.

Personally I favor the Hornady V-max 60 grain .223 for beaver control. The bvr dcvr will mitigate the water problem but doesn't stop the damage to the trees.

[fluidpowerpro]

My 2 cents...
I love running my mill and the satisfaction I get from saying "I cut that wood myself". I also like building machinery, so Im always working on the next modifications to improve the mill.
I consider the money I save on wood as a bonus, not the primary driver.
If you want to own a mill and use it, its a lot of work. If work does not scare you, then a mill is an option. 
Time is also a factor, so if you feel that your time would be better spent on other things, thats something to consider too.
I see often times people using $$ to try to justify buying a mill, but they really shouldnt look at it that way. As I have gotten older I have come to realize that life is too short to assign a $$ value to everything. 
In summary, if you buy one, do it because you think you will enjoy the work and everything else that comes with it.

[Oddman]

I think a mill is a worthwhile investment for pretty much anybody with access to an appreciable amount of timber, time, interest, and ability. 
It's been very enjoyable learning to be a sawyer. Also the "made this myself" aspect. Ability to make custom products. Ability to make use of what might just become firewood or filler for another dozer deck. Money saving and/or money earning opportunity. Resale value of a quality mill is very good typically (low risk investment). Self-reliance.
Just a no brainer for me. Only 1 regret - not getting one sooner.

[JMR-TBAY]

I guess when I talk about the economy of a sawmill, I'm more discussing whether the quality of timber I have is worth the effort, not necessarily the monetary value of the entire endeavor.

I also by nature tend to lean towards self reliance, like most of you here. Same reason why I reload my own ammo. I'm sure reloading is similar to sawmilling. The cost saving might ultimately be negligible, but the ability to tailor make a product that is of a higher quality than factory made is the true benefit. Also, the "I made that" factor is pretty cool after smacking a steel target that is 1000 meters away.

A lot of my large trees are leaning by a few degrees and they all have a substantial quantity of limbs. Some of my desire for a mills stems from wanting large beams. With knotty boards I suppose I would just cut them into 2x then flip the boards around and appropriate nail several together to make beams. Try to lessen the affect of the defects.





I've got a substantial quantity of tall, straight, low taper trees in the 10-12" range.





What's the smallest size spruce and white cedar worth milling for personal use? I suppose I could get 4x4's out of 6" trees and 6x6's out of 8".

My only other hesitancy at this point is the lack of local sawmill dealers.

[47sawdust]

The spruce on my property looks a lot like yours,limbs every 6''.
It will still make lumber. A sharp 4° blade and frozen logs works best for me.

[Oddman]

A good rule of thumb - take your desired beam size, say a 6x6, add 50% = 9"
That 9" is the approximate minimum log diameter needed to make a 6x6, that is if the log is straight-ish. If you will accept some bark/wane on one or more side of the beam then you can fudge a bit on that minimum dia. but it makes a good target.

Also say you are after some 2x8x12's...your going to need to make a cant that is atleast 8" by 6" (1.5" nominal thickness per 2x8, leave 1/8" for kerf, target would be 8x6&3/8") So you might go into your woods or your log pile and find a 12' piece that is 12" on the small end. 

This rule should help you decide just what kind of possibilities you have in your standing timber. I deal in much different timber than you have so would be quite interested in other's experiences with such knotty logs. 

[Oddman]

I looked over your pics again... although I saw mostly oak and red cedar I will venture to say that you have plenty of good structural material in your woods. The tamarack and white cedar pics looked to have knots large enough to be structurally defective but much of the other species are carrying limbs small enough that they probably won't be a problem, especially the butt logs. But that's only my uneducated guess. Reading up on log and lumber grading would be worthwhile to you. 

[Lynwoo]

Well welcome, there's a tutorial  on posting photo's  down at the bottom of the page. You need to put them into your gallery  located in your profile page first. It's not that bad even i figured  it out.

Sounds like a nice place to own. Good luck with the project. Is it worthwhile to own a sawmill, for me yes. If put pen to paper with what I have actually accomplished vs cost in time, dollars, and labor, maybe not. On the other hand,  the positive mental health benefits I get from sawdust production are pretty good. Each to their own. I would make sure you have all the other stuff(support equipment etc) lined up before you jump in.

Regarding support equipment, I've got an older 30 ton Cat excavator that I'll be installing a hydraulic thumb on in the spring. I've also got a 1950's dump truck. Both of these were acquired for developing the land which was/is severely overgrown.
For skidding I'd most likely get a set of those log arches to tow behind my atv. Would use the excavator for loading the largest logs on the mill. Once the heavy digging is done, I'll aim to trade the excavator for a TLB.

Very nice dump truck.  I have a 74 international single axle.
For me it's not about  economy.  I just enjoy the work.  Money really ain't no good anymore if you have it.  My mill gives back much more than it takes.  
That being said it depends on one likes and dislikes.

[rusticretreater]

I would suggest that if you are after a sawmill, you better move on it.  Wait times are extending to a year for many of the mills and used mills are going for more than new.  You have more than enough to do with your land so the year will move along I think.  I only have 8 acres and its a fair bit of work.

While you are waiting on your mill, you can start a loggin.

[Ventryjr]

Don't sell the cat. 

[Roundhouse]

Don't sell the cat.

^^This.^^
With that property I can't imagine ever running out of tasks for an excavator. Looks solid but not so new that it's burning up depreciation value if it's not used everyday. How much in the way of access roads/trails are existing on the property? Evaluating and planning can be a lot of fun. One of the first things I would do is see if there a handy source of gravel and or sand on your property the closer to the entrance the better. With your excavator and dump you could put in a nice woods road in short order. I wish I had an excavator, even lacking good gravel you can make little "ponds" along the way to build up your road while giving the water someplace to run to, wildlife benefits etc. You have some beautiful terrain but it also looks like that would limit your easily accessible timber. I would look for where it makes sense to put in an access road and how that relates to solid stands of timber within the property. You have room to pick and choose even 10-20 acres out of the total can last a long time when you're talking personal use. If there is a solid and level enough course for your road you could move a lot of wood to your mill site picking up logs with the thumb and placing them in the dump. Dump them at the mill landing and repeat, you'll soon have enough logs to last a long time. Once the landing is full drive the excavator back there and use it to sort your piles and load your log deck. If there is a need I'd say it's something with loader forks to handle sawn lumber when it comes off the mill, could be tractor, skid steer etc. 

There are a lot of good replies about about the value of sawing your own lumber. There are members here who provide great examples of successful sawmilling businesses but probably more who it wouldn't "pencil out" for. I'm squarely in the later camp. I just enjoy the heck out of learning this stuff and running my own sawmill. I'm coming up on 6 years of owning my mill, seemed pretty simple at first. First my old skid steer was acting up (the only equipment pre-dated my mill) so I bought a second one (just as old), bought a 2nd 10 acres (with spruce, cedar, hemlock) to supplement the 10 acres of hardwood where I put the mill, bought a running gear for moving logs, built a trailer for moving slabs, bought an old loader tractor, bought a 3rd 10 acres with some more cedar, popple and hemlock, bought an articulated loader forklift for moving big logs-lumber-slabs, bought a old flatbed truck for hauling logs from my "other 10s" back to the sawmill. It's a slippery slope. During that same time with lumber of the mill I built a roof over my mill, a couple sheds, a large cattle shelter, couple pieces of furniture, some smaller boxes, a shed for my tractor, a shed for my skid steer, and a growing pile of material for a cabin build. 

For most of us it comes down to two X factors. First, do we want to have a mill and try our hand at making lumber. Second, once we've done the first do we enjoy it enough to keep at it long term, hone our skills, keep refining our processes. If you enjoy it enough, as others have said, you can compare it to alternative hobbies and pastimes, very few of those have a positive payback. You also mention the quality of the wood you can produce in the value equation. That's a great way to look at it. As with many of us I suspect the early pieces can be frustrating and compare poorly with what you expect but before too long the tables will turn and you'll be getting a better grade of lumber from yourself than what you'll find at the store. That's part of the fun, once you can open up a log and it will tell you it's best use is. Plus as others have mentioned it opens up the possibility of cutting any piece you need according to the logs you have. If there is any caution I can provide it's around white cedar. I've started milling some of my own and the first log or two are often hollow, I still get boards from them but it takes some effort and the yield is not what it seems before the tree is cut. I hope you have good stock on your land but tempering your cedar expectations may be worth while.

The mill itself is a safe investment, unless it's completely left at the mercy of the weather long-term or abused you can get all or most of your money back out of it. Yesterday someone posted about auction results, I was shocked to see the model I have sell for over double what I paid for it new, if I didn't love it I would have to seriously consider putting mine up on the block, but now that I have one set up I can't fathom having to get in line and wait for another.

[Woodside Kai]

The quality of timber you have looks worth having a sawmill for if you'll have the time to fell, limb, skid, saw, pile and cover . The choice for you is how much sawing will you want to do vs how much investment should you put into the mill. 

There are a few manual bandmills around that could probably be had for a reasonable price and if you have the time to set one up there are a decent amount of old circle mills in our area. 

Pretty sweet lookin property,  looks like nolalu / south gilles area?