Opinions wanted: Economy of a mill on my property

JMR-TBAY · February 02, 2022, 07:38:18 PM

I've been a lurker on this forum for a little bit trying to learn what I can. Last summer my wife and I took possession of our dream land. 153 acres in rural NW Ontario Canada in reasonably close proximity to a small city. There is an abandoned homestead on the property, multiple fresh water sources and lots of mature timber. The homestead site, and our future home site is at the convergence of 3 small valleys. The property is fairly rugged with lots of exposed bed rock. Lots of elevation gain up to the "peaks".

I'm weighing the economy of purchasing a sawmill to supply material for outbuildings and non structural material for the house. From studying the tree atlas and exploring the property I've got plentiful amounts of white spruce, balsam fir, trembling aspen, balsam poplar, white birch, and slightly less amounts of tamarack, white cedar.

Around here everyone calls trembling aspen and balsam poplar just "poplar". I've heard that large poplars and white cedars can commonly have heart rot.

Trees around here grow pretty slow due to the short growing season. They tend to grow smaller diameter but tall. All of my trees are heavily branched.

I took some photos and took measurements to show you guys what I could be working with. Butt diameters are written in the photos.

Let me know what you think. Worth it to be considering a sawmill?

2 large poplars. 70-100' tall

White Spruce

Tamarack

Mixed stand

White cedar

Would these be worth investing in a sawmill for you? Let me know your thoughts and what some uses would be for these species.

Nebraska · February 02, 2022, 07:58:58 PM

Well welcome, there's a tutorial on posting photo's down at the bottom of the page. You need to put them into your gallery located in your profile page first. It's not that bad even i figured it out.

Sounds like a nice place to own. Good luck with the project. Is it worthwhile to own a sawmill, for me yes. If put pen to paper with what I have actually accomplished vs cost in time, dollars, and labor, maybe not. On the other hand, the positive mental health benefits I get from sawdust production are pretty good. Each to their own. I would make sure you have all the other stuff(support equipment etc) lined up before you jump in.

JMR-TBAY · February 02, 2022, 08:00:58 PM

Photos should be fixed.

JMR-TBAY · February 02, 2022, 08:08:17 PM

Quote from: Nebraska on February 02, 2022, 07:58:58 PM
Well welcome, there's a tutorial on posting photo's down at the bottom of the page. You need to put them into your gallery located in your profile page first. It's not that bad even i figured it out.

Sounds like a nice place to own. Good luck with the project. Is it worthwhile to own a sawmill, for me yes. If put pen to paper with what I have actually accomplished vs cost in time, dollars, and labor, maybe not. On the other hand, the positive mental health benefits I get from sawdust production are pretty good. Each to their own. I would make sure you have all the other stuff(support equipment etc) lined up before you jump in.

Regarding support equipment, I've got an older 30 ton Cat excavator that I'll be installing a hydraulic thumb on in the spring. I've also got a 1950's dump truck. Both of these were acquired for developing the land which was/is severely overgrown.
For skidding I'd most likely get a set of those log arches to tow behind my atv. Would use the excavator for loading the largest logs on the mill. Once the heavy digging is done, I'll aim to trade the excavator for a TLB.

fluidpowerpro · February 02, 2022, 08:15:02 PM

Based on what you describe, and the picks you shared, I think you will find a sawmill to be a great investment.
I've got some buildings on my property that I built using wood that I cut. Its always great to be able to tell someone that you cut the wood yourself out of trees that grew within eyesight of the building.

farmfromkansas · February 02, 2022, 08:27:53 PM

I don't have the kind of trees you have that are good for building lumber, instead I got a mill to keep my woodshop stocked. Wood is expensive, and as I have trees, figured I could cut my own lumber and if I no longer need the mill can sell it. Don't think I have lost any money yet, the price of mills continues to go up.

WV Sawmiller · February 02, 2022, 08:32:42 PM

Welcome. Glad to have you. Another impossible question though. The trees I saw looked like they should make decent lumber although most are species I never see. I did saw a little Tamarack and it is challenging IMHO. If your question is just would those trees make good lumber, I'd say yes for the most part.

To really determine the cost effectiveness you'd need to know how much lumber you were going to need to cut/use and what it would cost to buy or have someone else come mill it for you which I assume is an option in your area. Then compare that to the mill purchase cost and operational cost. Then what is your labor worth?

You might contact local millers and see if they would be interested in sawing on shares or working out an arrangement to saw on your place. I have a customer or two who have me come saw but when others want lumber I contact them and they cut their logs, pay me to mill them then the 2nd customer goes there to pick up the lumber. I have even facilitated delivery using other friends and neighbors with equipment and all of us benefited from the efforts.

If there is a market for the lumber you might pay someone else or saw and sell it yourself if you have to time, space and equipment to do so.

Is this something you plan to do full time or part time. If part time how much time do you have to allot to milling? How much support equipment do you have at your disposal? Logs and lumber are heavy. How much experience do you have felling and bucking trees?

Please don't take offense to any of the questions above which I am sure you have considered. As Nebraska mentioned there are hidden cost benefits which are hard to measure such as the fresh air and exercise, watching a rough log turn into really nice (Hopefully) lumber and knowing it came off your property.

What you will find is you will likely saw some logs that really don't produce the lumber you would buy but that's part of the learning process. You will also find yourself coming up with projects requiring lumber and timbers that you would not normally do. I tell people I am spoiled because if I need a board and don't have it, I'll just go make one. Do you have hobbies using wood? Do you want some?

What do the rest of your family think about the idea? If they are not on board it could be a hard sell especially if you are cutting into family time with them. If they are interested and help it may be something you all can do together and enjoy the time and results.

I find myself making benches and planters and birdhouses and such that I would never have done without a mill. I've built pole barns to store lumber and crafts in. I've built small sheds and even outhouses/composting toilets to sell.

If you have not done so I'd go observe and maybe help stack some lumber for some local mills. The more you can see the more you will learn about the process and maybe help you determine if or what kind of mill you want, if any.

Good luck. If you can provide more details we can provide more opinions and lessons learned but nobody else is going to be able to make the final decision but you.

JMR-TBAY · February 02, 2022, 09:18:00 PM

Thanks for all the input.

My tree region is where the Great Lakes - St Lawrence Forest meets the Boreal Forest. It is predominantly soft wood. This region produces some of the best dimensional lumber. All of the high grade stuff is exported to the US. The short growing season creates very tight growth rings and some really dense wood.

There also appears to be very very few small private mills here. Unfortunately the only dealer around me is Woodmizer. I'd love a Woodmizer, but I've been considering the more economical options such as Woodland Mills. They appear to be a decent balance between budget and features with good customer service.

I don't plan on selling what I produce, with the exception of the occasional live edge slab, as those seem to be all the rage. I have a full time career but am not a stranger to forestry. I've also got lots of close friends and family in the industry that can provide guidance if necessary.

Here are some additional photos of the property.

trimguy · February 02, 2022, 09:45:26 PM

Looks like a beautiful place! Yes get a mill. 😁

hilltopper46 · February 02, 2022, 09:55:01 PM

I'm a fairly recent mill owner and would say I am strictly a hobbyist, but I would say you should get a mill. I think you will be glad you did 100 times over. And I think it will pay for itself.

There are some good Canadian built mills as well that you could look into.

fluidpowerpro · February 02, 2022, 09:55:20 PM

Thats a beautiful piece of property. I'm jealous.

JMR-TBAY · February 02, 2022, 10:08:20 PM

Thanks everyone! It truly is an amazing piece of land. We are blessed. But now the real work starts.

Took me a couple years to find exactly what checked all my boxes. There are so many clear cut cut-overs for sale around these parts with inflated price tags that are 3/4 swamp.

I don't do any woodworking, so the mill would be strictly for dimensional lumber, siding, structural timbers and the occasional slab.

Nebraska · February 02, 2022, 11:06:11 PM

Well gee, an excavator and thumb, and a truck, I would add a 60-80 ish hp front wheel assist tractor and loader, with a quicktach bucket, pallet forks, snowblower, and a grapple bucket. Just helping you spend money. That looks like a good place to go get lost in.

JMR-TBAY · February 02, 2022, 11:25:05 PM

Quote from: Nebraska on February 02, 2022, 11:06:11 PM
Well gee, an excavator and thumb, and a truck, I would add a 60-80 ish hp front wheel assist tractor and loader, with a quicktach bucket, pallet forks, snowblower, and a grapple bucket. Just helping you spend money. That looks like a good place to go get lost in.

Haha well once I can get rid of the excavator a 50ish hp Kubota tractor loader backhoe with a front mount snowblower, grapple, box blade etc will be on the short list!
In the mean time the hoe will make quick work of the 1500' of buried electrical, septic, dug well, tree clearing and various gravel pads that need to be installed. Spring can come any day now.

Crossroads · February 03, 2022, 12:55:31 AM

Let the adventure begin! I think a mill could benefit you nicely. Best wishes with your decision

rusticretreater · February 03, 2022, 01:14:09 AM

Price out the wood to build a structure. Price out the mill and your cost of wood harvested. Now think about adding or expanding a second structure. The mill is now a great investment.

alco424 · February 03, 2022, 05:31:35 AM

What a beautiful pup!

jpassardi · February 03, 2022, 07:31:44 AM

I would say yes, get yourself a mill. The purchase only hurts for a little while... Understandably, cost is a consideration - A Woodland will get the job done.
I did what you're about to 15 yrs ago: built 1/4 mile drive, underground utilities, & septic. Built the house -everything but electric, insulation & sheetrock. A couple years of 12 hour weekends and late nights after work. I was lucky to have the help of my Father and Cousin.
Used my old 20 ton excavator and old dump truck which I still have. I built a mechanical thumb for the excavator and a hydraulic for my Cat backhoe - big help if you have a lot of rock to build walls with & brush/log handling. A full size backhoe w/thumb is great for handling/moving smaller logs with precision.
If you get boards for siding cut and stickered to dry you could use board and batten. I'm happy with mine. This will help negate the mill cost. I didn't have a mill back then so I had to pay to have it cut.
Good luck!

DMcCoy · February 03, 2022, 08:14:19 AM

Asking sawmill addicts for advice... ;)...yes you should get a mill. 8)
Nice looking piece of ground. Before you get rid of your hoe you might build some roads.
I often wonder why more people with property like yours don't own sawmills. Lumber can get real expensive real fast, but the time you spend isn't just the sawing. Besides getting the logs to your mill, after sawing there is a lot of clean up around a mill, slabs, edge trimmings, bark, sawdust.
You pictured a couple of trees with butt sweep, these produce less good lumber overall in my experience.
Do you plan to heat either your house of shop with wood? The only reason I ask is mills create a lot of scrap.
I would never not want a mill, even if it sits for a couple of years between uses. Trees fall down all the time and I am always amazed at how a "big pile" of lumber shrinks over time. Common sizes and lengths are best to stock up on. Accessory building require shelving, etc.
It's a very slippery slope. Sawmill sheds, wood shops, planers, tools, lots of tools, and places to store them. Equipment and places to store it. Cable, chokers, snatch blocks, chains. Addiction....there are far worse things than a sawmill.
Does your wife support the idea of tools and equipment? Mine does and for that I am really fortunate!

SawyerTed · February 03, 2022, 08:51:28 AM

You have a great start with the equipment and that beautiful property. And the trees appear to be great for milling.

The "economy" of owning a mill? This is kind of like asking a hammer about nails. :D If you are a hammer everything looks like a nail. If you are a physical therapist, everybody needs ~~torture~~ physical therapy (sorry that's a different rant) :D :D Of course we will say get a mill ;)

On a more serious note, not everyone needs a sawmill or will there be a savings on building materials if you own one. The economy comes in where the work begins. Sawmilling is hard work. Owning a mill really isn't hard work, operating one is hard work. The economy comes in when you invest your time and work into operating the mill. There are so many sawmills around here it is amazing. I'd guess about one forth of them get weekly use. Since I've owned a sawmill, I've cut lumber for a dozen customers who own sawmills. No economy there.

Percy · February 03, 2022, 10:15:02 AM

Not having to race to town to buy that 6 and a quarter by 3 and 5/16 beam is a definite plus :D..just make your own.

On a side note, looks like you could build yourself a small hydro electric power plant ...using the boards you cut from your own mill of course.... ;D

Awesome looking dog!!!

handhewn · February 03, 2022, 11:17:46 AM

I paid off my sawmill 40 or so years ago. It is still paying me back today!

GAB · February 03, 2022, 11:34:48 AM

You know how therapeutic an excavator can be after a bad day in the office, well in my opinion a sawmill can do the same. The question is do you want to donate to the psychiatrists, or do you want to invest in yourself.
For me it was bulldozers (I've had 5) and a sawmill. With machinery when the dealing is over with you still have a pile of scrap metal you can sell.
GAB

Wlmedley · February 03, 2022, 11:50:54 AM

Have been up in your area a couple times on fishing trips.Loved ever minute.Get your mill you won't regret it.

JMR-TBAY · February 03, 2022, 12:00:51 PM

Quote from: Percy on February 03, 2022, 10:15:02 AM
Not having to race to town to buy that 6 and a quarter by 3 and 5/16 beam is a definite plus :D..just make your own.

On a side note, looks like you could build yourself a small hydro electric power plant ...using the boards you cut from your own mill of course.... ;D

Awesome looking dog!!!

Micro-hydro is definitely on my radar. I can get about 160' of head within my property. Flow is variable due to a beaver reeking havoc where the creek leaves the lake.

Archer is the pup. He's a 3yo GSD x Belgium Malinois. For anyone familiar with the Malinois breed...they're a bit nuts, but I wouldn't change it for anything.