veneer grade log

[fluidpowerpro]

I see often times on the forum, people talk about a log being veneer grade. I know what veneer is and I assume a veneer grade log is high end, but other than that, I could not tell one from another. I would appreciate it if someone could enlighten me on what constitutes a veneer grade log.

[Larry]

Years ago one of the biggest and oldest walnut mills in the US was located close to where I lived in northwest Missouri.  They had veneer buyers that traveled the midwest buying veneer walnut.  A couple times a year they would hold an all day class to teach folks interested in walnut what a veneer walnut log looked like.  If interested, they would also cover how to log walnut, improve the crop, and any other thing of interest.  And it was all free training.  I assume some of the other mills also do it as I was told it greatly benefited the company down the road.  You might check with your veneer buyers to see if anything is available in your area.

I went a couple of times and learned quite a bit about veneer log defects and what they look like.  Cat faces, bird peck, shake, crook, insect damage, and probably lots that I forgot.  More to a veneer log than just clear faces.    

[WV Sawmiller]

Ask Extension - How to Determine if my Tree is Veneer Quality? (Timber Harvesting & Marketing).

I like the definition that a veneer log is any log for which you get veneer log prices. Different log buyers are going to have different specifications and check with them because a few inches too short or such and you drop a couple of grades. I had a price sheet from a local sawmill but can't find it. I remember they specified 4 clear faces, pretty healthy small end diameter, length, etc. Also they would only pay veneer on certain species.

[beenthere]

The veneer grade will vary from time to time, depending on what the veneer mills' demand is at the moment. Includes export market too. 

Reading the bark for underlying defects is a big part of the game of grading. 
Often logs one thinks might go for veneer are laid out for the veneer buyers to visit and inspect the logs, buying what they (and the company they represent or buy for) feel meets their specs. Surprising to see what they leave, and also surprising to see what they buy sometimes. 

So, no clear answer as it "depends". 

[SawyerTed]

The "mystical veneer" log is dependent upon what veneer buyers need at the time.  Sometimes it is free of defects -clear on four sides.  Sometimes it is clear three sides.  Rarely is it clear 2 sides but it depends on the demand at the time.

What defects are acceptable or not are determined by the buyer/grader.

[Nebraska]

@Larry  just gotta ask  where were you in North West Missouri, and where was the mill?

[Larry]

I had a farm on the Missouri river bluffs about 20 miles south of St. Joseph Mo.

The mill was in St Joseph and at the time I think the name was Walnut Woods....they changed names because of buyouts several times.  Today I think its called American Walnut.  When I was there they not only did walnut veneer but also supplied Remington with most of there gunstocks and sent a lot of walnut to the European flooring market.  A very good company.

[Ron Wenrich]

The mill I worked at sold #2 tulip poplar for core stock to a plant in NY.  A better price than cutting it up.  Some veneers will limit the amount of sapwood, others the amount of heartwood.  At one time, we had a Weyerhauser plant that took red oak veneer with a defect.  They were slicing 3 sides.  Ring spacing can also come into play.  In other words, lots of variables.

Find a log buyer, and they can fill you in on the local market.  Log buyers will often come out to a log yard to buy logs.  Tag along and you'll get an education.  They've always been free with their information.

[PoginyHill]

Generally a veneer log will allow one defect max. If more than one are aligned axially (along the length of the log), it may still be considered a one-defect log. Most veneer logs will be clear. What is considered a defect probably varies by buyer and the organization they represent. Obvious knots are always a defect. Other defects, as @Larry mentioned may not be as clear cut. Defects identifiable on the log end can also be a defect, such as a grub hole on oak, rot, seam, split, ring-shake, etc...

Sweep must be minimal - say 3" or under
Some grades will limit the amount of heart compared to the overall diameter, such as 1/2 or 1/3 heart max.
Higher grades require a well-centered heart or pith.

There are three basic types of veneer log markets: rotary, sliced, and core. Core veneer is normally tulip poplar, quaking aspen (Canada), bigtooth aspen, and SYP in the east and white fir among some others in the west. Grade is looser on these. Rotary veneer is generally the looser of hardwood veneer markets, compared to slicer logs, but there is plenty of overlap. Hardwood veneer is often transported hundreds of miles. Michigan mills will buy logs in Maine for instance. So there isn't a regional thing to rotary versus slicer. Slicer mills are generally in Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, and PA. Rotary mills are a bit more widespread from upper mid-west to the east coast, including Canada.
Walnut, aromatic cedar, knotty (western) pine, and cherry are only sliced - and there may be others; no significant rotary market for those species. Birch, oak, and maple are 90% of the rotary market. Birch is not sliced to any great extent.

[Nebraska]

Thanks for the answer Larry  my wife's family  is from Maryville area so just wondered how close.

[moodnacreek]

It might be veneer if it has diameter , is straight, no defects, [cat face, knot scars] and central heart both ends. The fresh cut ends can reveal fire scar, shake, stain and uneven growth among other problems.

[Walnut Beast]

How long can a veneer walnut log set around with the ends anchor sealed in a building on a concrete floor??

[rusticretreater]

I would say get it off the concrete surface onto bunks and cover the surface under the log.  Concrete is a heat sink.  Any air that circulates around a log that comes into contact with the concrete will be cooled.  If it is up against a concrete or cinder block wall, put some space and insulation between that as well.  You would have two cooler sides and two hotter sides.  Not good for even log drying.  You should probably turn the log regularly too.  

[beenthere]

Doubt a log will remain a veneer grade log if surfaces are allowed to dry and form cracks from shrinkage. 

[nativewolf]

Generally a veneer log will allow one defect max. If more than one are aligned axially (along the length of the log), it may still be considered a one-defect log. Most veneer logs will be clear. What is considered a defect probably varies by buyer and the organization they represent. Obvious knots are always a defect. Other defects, as @Larry mentioned may not be as clear cut. Defects identifiable on the log end can also be a defect, such as a grub hole on oak, rot, seam, split, ring-shake, etc...

Sweep must be minimal - say 3" or under
Some grades will limit the amount of heart compared to the overall diameter, such as 1/2 or 1/3 heart max.
Higher grades require a well-centered heart or pith.

There are three basic types of veneer log markets: rotary, sliced, and core. Core veneer is normally tulip poplar, quaking aspen (Canada), bigtooth aspen, and SYP in the east and white fir among some others in the west. Grade is looser on these. Rotary veneer is generally the looser of hardwood veneer markets, compared to slicer logs, but there is plenty of overlap. Hardwood veneer is often transported hundreds of miles. Michigan mills will buy logs in Maine for instance. So there isn't a regional thing to rotary versus slicer. Slicer mills are generally in Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, and PA. Rotary mills are a bit more widespread from upper mid-west to the east coast, including Canada.
Walnut, aromatic cedar, knotty (western) pine, and cherry are only sliced - and there may be others; no significant rotary market for those species. Birch, oak, and maple are 90% of the rotary market. Birch is not sliced to any great extent.

This should be catalogued as a standard response to what is a veneer.  Of course it helps that the poster actually works for a veneer mill.  

[YellowHammer]

For me, as I'm buying logs, the easiest way to understand a veneer grade log is what it will be optimally used, and that is veneer A grade ply or plywood.  

So if there is any defects in the log, then there will be defects in the peeled ply and when it is applied to a substrate, it won't be clear and won't be A grade veneer.  So it will drop to a lower grade, such as B, which is the next lowest grade, and still is pretty good, but A grade is flawless.

[mike_belben]

Whats the smallest diameter small end inside bark that can make veneer in oaks and tulip poplar?

And i suppose also the smallest number of logs that will entice a buyer to visit.

[OH logger]

13" seems to be about the limit around here. As far as quanatjty that depends on log size and quality. I've sold a 1,000' before and maybe less can't remember. Obviously the more the better 

[mike_belben]

Wow.  

Every mill around here with a price and spec sheet is almost a carbon copy of the other mills.  They will have "veneer" as their top grade but its minimum 18" small end, usually 12'6 or longer and completely flawless.  Really the log that you never have.  A 13" log no matter how perfect gets lumped in as 2common.  Its easy to see the trailers staged as sorts for reselling. 

[PoginyHill]

If you are selling to a lumber yard, third party concentration yard, or re-seller, it's likely the veneer spec sheet does not match what many veneer mills will actually buy. These third party buyers will buy whatever they can with the price and grade sheet they offer, run what they need (in the case of a sawmill), and sell what they can at a profit. What they might call "veneer" is likely a top quality slicer log or export log. Logs they buy as a "saw log" may still meet a veneer spec and be resold to a veneer mill. A lot depends on the market. If a sawmill is in need of logs for their own operation, they'll run more and sell less, if any. If logs are flush, they will sell more (often to a veneer mill) of what they buy.

As I mentioned previously, if a logs is straight, max of 1 defect, it will likely make a rotary veneer log.

Rotary veneer logs can be as small as 10" or 11" avg small end diameter (Int'l scale), depending on the species and market conditions. 9'6" and 10'6" are common lengths.

For a mill to pick up logs, you'd need a full truck load (4mbf or so). Smaller quantities can be brought to the mill or a mill-owned concentration yard, if there is one nearby.

[mike_belben]

This is all pretty much what ive concluded.  Im not complaining, theyre providing a market i cant reach yet and have to get their cut.  


Is there a standard scale used in veneer or is it regional?  Mr doyle is always taxing me pretty hard here.  

[PoginyHill]

Buyers will normally buy based on whatever scale is accepted in the region. What I cannot answer is how they might measure a minimum log diameter - whether a buyer would stick with average or allow small way for diameter. I guess more of an academic question for the topic at hand. Either Scribner or Doyle allow diameter as measured by the small way, not average like International requires - I just can't recall which one. For a perfectly round diameter, diameter would be the same. For an egg-shaped diameter, it could be different, depending on what scale is being used.

[PoginyHill]

Im not complaining, theyre providing a market i cant reach yet and have to get their cut.  

I agree. I am not disparaging 3rd party buyers. They provide a market that might not otherwise exist if not for them buying and reselling logs. And many mills get a large portion of their usage from 3rd party buyers.

[YellowHammer]

I occasionlly have to compete against "real veneer" buyers, and other "high grade" buyers.  Each log species seems to have a very slightly different tweak to make ultra high grade, and those are typically just a tad too expensive and I can do just as well with a slightly less perfect log.  So I get the culls of the best logs ;D, which can't be sold at veneer prices but are the next best of the best.  I've had a good field education in this, pretty much every week as I buy logs.

I have stood next to a veneer log buyer, out in a summertime dusty Tennessee log yard and watched him buy $175,000 of logs right in front of me, and him not blink an eye.  I've also been grading next to very knowledgeable local veneer buyers who supply mills as far away as Kentucky, and watched them dissect a log like a surgeon.  

Also, many of the big mills around here broker they very high grade logs, and the guy with the most money wins.  Even the loggers will lay the best of the best out on their log yard and invite "bidders" at any time.  There are also logs that the circle production mills cant make money on, such as clear poplar over 30" diameter, and walnut under 8'6". Those odd logs that slip through the cracks are the ones that I snatch up.  For example, I about watched a mill owner come unglued and almost fire his logging crew on the phone when a load of nice walnut came it at 8' instead off 9'.  For this area, the veneer buyers want 9' plus trim, and I was able to calm the mill owner by simply telling the mill owner "I'll take them."

Around here, everything is Doyle, Scribner is only used on cedar.

[mike_belben]

. Either Scribner or Doyle allow diameter as measured by the small way, not average like International requires -

This is a peeve of mine.  When a mill is making a product by bucking your logs into short multiples and they require a minimum length that puts our heavy taper trees down to a tiny small end.  


I load with loose swingy 8 foot wide forks, and no one else does.  So its a much bigger pain for me to deal in shorter wood dropping between the forks or bunks than anyone else.. But ohhh we dont like dealing in short wood so we need long.  Yeah.  

You like having that 20" butt come with a 13" top instead of 16" to pay me doyle on the whole thing and get the taper for free.  I know its not recovered in grade sawing but it sure is in stave and handle.  My avg dollar per bdft would do better to put the small chunk onto a pallet log and bring you a 16" log with one less multiple.  The pallet mill pays for every knob on there instwad of subtracting.  Kinda sad.

Selling on doyle i have always been disappointed and recently by the ton always pleasantly surprised. Twizzler pallet logs bring the same as my nicest sawlogs right now when the bunks are filled about the same.  It just requires being set up to efficiently harvest, load and haul low grade to make money on it.  Makes me wish i kept the sawlogs to saw myself.. But i just have too many other irons in the fire.


Im always chipping away trying to tweak the iron so that even the worst woods can provide enough revenue to eat without cutting the best trees down.  We are running out of best trees to cut and its tough to live on worst trees while the good ones grow back. But man have we got a sea of low grade if you had the right setup.