“Board foot”

[WV Sawmiller]

   IDK about the rest of you but around here as often as not if I get a potential customer call me about a mobile sawing job he will ask me "How much is your rate per thousand" rather than "How much is your rate per board foot?". I guess these old farmers have a pretty good handle on what 1,000 bf looks like.

[YellowHammer]

This customer last Saturday was a stickler for checking our bdft prices. Then, he left his scale stick.  We called him and he came back to get it.  


 

[Old Greenhorn]

REALLY?! Oh my, I would love to meet THAT GUY! ;D :D :D

[Old Greenhorn]

I note that he also had the best tools that HF could provide (at under 5 bucks). :D :D :D :D

[Deese]

WOW. If he comes here with that tool, I'm chasing him outta da chicken house with my shovel 😆

[metalspinner]

And yet to be discussed is the range of allowable thickness within 4/4. 

1 1/4" isn't 5/4, right?

[Deese]

 :D 

[Cedarman]

The guy with the caliper must have taken Pres Reagan to heart  "Trust, but Verify".  I have people measure the thickness of wood all the time.  Doesn't hurt my feelings.  

Custom sawing someone's logs requires different pricing strategy than selling your own lumber.
In the first instance you are selling a service, not a product. In the second you are selling a product.  The pricing of that product may include sawing, drying, straight lining , planing or T&G ing or cut to length or whatever else a customer desires.

Back in the day when custom sawing, I priced by board foot.  Less than 1", priced at 1".  1" and thicker, priced by the board foot.  Additional charges would apply for resawing boards into tobacco sticks and other narrow pieces.

When I sell product, I say give me your material list and  I will quote.  Prices vary according to how much effort is required to give them what they want.  Random width one price, you specify the widths, then  higher prices depending on the widths.  Every process has a price.

[jpassardi]

I note that he also had the best tools that HF could provide (at under 5 bucks). :D :D :D :D

Yeah, obviously a cheap S.O.B., likely with little woodworking experience - plastic calipers and useless flimsy tape. I wouldn't have been able to hold my tongue...
So what was his intent: if 3/4 material mic'd a 1/32nd light was he planning to beat you down?

[Don P]

I've had the architect at the back of the planer checking thousandths, its all in what is specified and needed. Just cover your end.

[YellowHammer]

I haven't told you the rest of the story.  That very same day, another customer brought in and left another set of calipers.  So two sets in one day, both brought with a tape measure, both forgotten.  This one was placed on a different shelf awaiting the customer to come back after we called.

I was with the guy when he used this one, to measure skip planed wood.  He asked how thick the wood was and I said 1-7/16".  He said what?  So I said 1-3/8" plus 1/16, you know, just under a one and a half".  Then he said oh.  So then he measured its, and I asked what did it come to and he said 1.43". I said yep, 1-3/8 plus a sixteenth.

Anyway, if someone's going to spend a few hundred bucks on a board, it doesn't bother me if they want to measure it with a laser, our stuff is "right" and it won't be the last time.  

Of course, after this one I had to call someone to tell the story, so I called up Jake @customsawyer and said "You wouldn't believe what just happened" and I could hear his laughter from Georgia.  

[moodnacreek]

'Board foot' starts with rough green sawn lumber and any wood removed or any shrinkage has nothing to do with it. If only 'pine' was sawed in 1/4" increments and never dressed it would be simple for everyone. Other than less than inch [being called inch] and commercial rough hardwood being oversize it is simple. You really need to know the old traditions even though you don't, as a seller have to follow them, they could be used in court.  Not to change the subject but for comparison a 4' cord of fire wood is only 66 percent solid wood. The rest is air .

[Old Greenhorn]

I never would have thought to say "1-3/8 plus a sixteenth", but he got it. A couple of months ago I was running the mill and Bill, the owner was there. I was doing some calcs out loud to wind up with a 5x5 at the bottom and it wasn't worth setting up the Accuset for just a couple of beams. So as I was working my way up, I was adding the board sizes out loud (6+1.125=7.125+1.125=8.25+1.125=9.375+1.125=10.50, etc.) and Bill asks "do you convert everything to decimal in your head?" 'yup'. "how do you do that?" Well for 50 years, nothing in my machine shop world is in fractions, so I just learned it over time and always did it. I only got down to 16ths after that I have to do 'math'. 
 BTW, 1-7/16 is actually 1.4375", but who's counting? Accuracy is a relative thing. I always got a kick out of the kids in the shop who got the newest digital calipers that went out to 4 digits past the decimal and they actually believed they had accurate readings down to tenths of a thousandth. I'd grab my toolmakers mic and show them the fallacy of their thinking by measuring calibrated gauge blocks with both. At that level, a dust fleck makes a difference, but even more is the users degree of consistent touch with the tool. But folks believe that is the tool reads to 4 digits, it must be right. ;D

 Funny how certain numbers used often enough just stick in your head and many are numbers we never need again. I can still recall the part numbers for the speed break actuator housings on an A-10 (711311-201) and that the left hand was a -1 and the right was a -2. I last made one back in 1978 I think. Why do I know this?

 Now Back to BF.

[Stephen1]

OG , I work in fractions doing the same thing, I do not know the conversion to decimals. It would be easer adding for sure. After a while of sawing some very simple boards, you remember the numbers. 

[WV Sawmiller]

  Yeah, I have learned more about adding fractions since I bought my mill than I ever did in HS. You have to do so when you need to land on a target. I usually flip the log/cant and set the blade to my target height then start adding in predetermined drops as I go up till I figure I can't get a usable board then I stop and saw and drop till I get to my target height/thickness.

   On the 1" lumber I bill 1-1/8" as 1" but if someone wants 1-1/4 (5/4) I bill it as 1.25". I have not thought about what Ill do if someone wants some 1-3/16" lumber. ???

   My favorite to saw is 7/8" because I use a 1/8" kerf so I just set my SS for 1" drops.

[YellowHammer]

When I buy from some wholesale suppliers, they use lasers to measure the boards, can tell me what width every stick is in the pack, the average width of the boards, etc.  Then they put a barcode on the pack and and I can ask these questions when I order it.

Others, generally the small outfits, do a length x width x height calculation on the pack and charge by that, and that's OK, but I always double check them when the packs come in.  The ones that fire me up are when they send packs of wood with a lot of shorts mixed in and my spot check numbers don't match their charged numbers because they did a pack volume calcualtion and didn't take the shorts into account.  Or they use the width of the pallet as a measurement, but they stack the wood a couple inches narrower on each side.  Then they start hemming and hawing and I get "Yellowhammery" with them, and some make it good, some don't but they are all put on the "probation" list, and go to the end of the line.

So I can't really blame customers for doing the same thing to me.  That's why we have tape measures laying everywhere in the store, I tell people to use them if they wish and if they find a bad measurement let me know.  However, it's really so that when they check, and they do, they will find out that I'm being honest with them and it puts them at ease.

A one liner I will never forget was an Old Timer who ran a mill out in the middle of nowhere, Alabama.  He used to be a professional grader instructor, was still certified, and told me  "More money was made or lost with a tape measure than ever with a sawmill."  I never forget that.  

[Deese]

Watched my boy play in their final football game of the season 70 miles South near Florida, came back and knocked yet another 3/4" Clear Alabama Southern Yellow Pine order out at 20% above cost of 1" and now easing to the house. More passes on the mill, more fuel consumed, more time consumed. Of course they cost more than 1". 

[Peter Drouin]

  smiley_big_grin3

[WV Sawmiller]

Deese,

   More passes and more boards. Pretty lumber.

[Deese]

😆😆
WV I knew you would take the bait! 
My boy and I are going to the Arkansas game Saturday. Come join us. 

[Deese]

I'd usually say "The Auburn vs Arkansas game". But I doubt the tigers will show up. 

[teakwood]

I was with the guy when he used this one, to measure skip planed wood.  He asked how thick the wood was and I said 1-7/16".  He said what?  So I said 1-3/8" plus 1/16, you know, just under a one and a half".  Then he said oh.  So then he measured its, and I asked what did it come to and he said 1.43". I yep, 1-3/8 plus a sixteenth.

Man, you gringos with those fractions and decimals, makes you head spin when you need to learn to work with such a overcomplicated system. what comes under 1-3/8"? is it 1-1/4" or is it 1-5/16" or even 1-11/32" ???

Have you ever heard of the simplest of all systems? it's called metric, what comes under 33mm, its 32mm, very simple :D:D:D

[Deese]

Now I wish I would have made my forum name "The Gringo"

[Don P]

 

I was with the guy when he used this one, to measure skip planed wood.  He asked how thick the wood was and I said 1-7/16".  He said what?  So I said 1-3/8" plus 1/16, you know, just under a one and a half".  Then he said oh.  So then he measured its, and I asked what did it come to and he said 1.43". I yep, 1-3/8 plus a sixteenth.

Man, you gringos with those fractions and decimals, makes you head spin when you need to learn to work with such a overcomplicated system. what comes under 1-3/8"? is it 1-1/4" or is it 1-5/16" or even 1-11/32" ???

Have you ever heard of the simplest of all systems? it's called metric, what comes under 33mm, its 32mm, very simple :D:D:D

Ain't real bright but we're persistent  :D. 
just remember 100um=.0039" and you're all set.

[rjwoelk]

The first thing you do with long stuff for a customer is find out for sure if he needs it all that long. In my early sawing days, more than once the customer cut it in half to get it in the truck!

When I was doing long haul, we would get a order of 60 ft engineered lumber. So sticking out the back of the trailer 5 ft extra tarping to keep it clean, restricted time half hr before sunrise to half hr after sun set,over length permits, extra stress in traffic,  etc.
 Get to the receiver and he gets out the chainsaw and cuts it to 12, 10 you name, could have had the product to him a day earlier if it they had just ordered the correct size.