Insert cutter screw stripped

Brad_bb · June 15, 2023, 02:04:31 PM

On my new G0544 Grizzly planer with spiral head, I hit a nail yesterday and need to rotate 3 cutters. First one went fine, second cutter screw snapped the torx bit, put another bit in and snapped that one. Those are the bits that came with the planer. So I then switched to my WIHA T20 bit and it stripped the screw head out. Tried the next cutter and same thing. Anyone run into this issue? Any tricks?

I wonder if you tapped the screw head with a punch before trying it, if that would help it break free? With the stripped ones I guess I just have to drill it and use an easy out?

Thanks, Brad

Southside · June 15, 2023, 02:26:53 PM

Won't help with the present situation but maybe in the future put the penetrating oil to the screws before trying to remove them?

Hilltop366 · June 15, 2023, 02:42:27 PM

In my motorcycle mechanic days it was common to have trouble removing machine screws, sometime you can tap the screw head with a punch enough to flatten it out then drive the bit back in and remove the screw. If that didn't work the next step would be to drill the head off and remove the rest of the screw after the side cover was removed as there was usually enough screw stem sticking out to use vice grips on it.

Using a impact screwdriver (the kind you hit with a hammer) greatly increased your chances of getting the screw started without damaging the head, not sure how that would work with torx or perhaps a small impact gun.

Drilling out the screw and easy outs were a last resort as there is a greater risk of damaging the threads or breaking the easy out.

Hilltop366 · June 15, 2023, 02:44:37 PM

Sometimes a centre punch or small chisel can be used to turn the screw by holding it at a angle and tapping it.

Machinebuilder · June 15, 2023, 04:11:30 PM

Very carefully drill the head off. Or break the insert

This will relieve the tension on the screw

Use a torque screwdriver to install the screws they are a very low torque

Old Greenhorn · June 15, 2023, 05:57:23 PM

Machinebuilder is right on the money. Do what he said. ;D These screws are not exactly like normal screws. The holes are located so that when the taper on the screw head comes down into the countersink on the insert, it pushes the insert against both banking surfaces so that the location of the insert is exactly the same in each pocket. What this means is that the screw is not necessarily 'bottomed out' on that countersink as one might normally expect. Use a drill that is the same diameter as the OD of the screw threads and do it carefully trying to stay square to the centerline of the screw. the head will pop off on the drill if you do it perfect. Then you can pry the insert out if it is not totally free and loose. The screw should actually be loose at that point and if you can get your fingers on it, you could unscrew it. You might need needle nose pliers though. ;D
If you resort to breaking the insert, keep in mind the pieces can fly like shrapnel and lodge under your skin. So locate your hard punch, cover the whole thing with a doubled rag, and give it a good whack.
This insert design has been used in machine tool cutting tools for many decades and I have taken out dozens of those screws butchered up by sloppy machinists over the years. It's a great idea to replace any screws when the sockets feel sloppy and also use a torque wrench. Some manufacturers recommend you change screws when you change out inserts because the screw is torqued 2, 4, 6, or 8 times on each insert depending on the number of edges. I used to run some big shell mills that had round inserts and it was REALLY hard to keep track of the rotations. :D

Please let us know how you make out.

Brad_bb · June 15, 2023, 07:26:07 PM

This is the first time the screws have been touched, first time rotating any cutter. I'm surprised there is no warning or advise from Grizzly manual or supplement. If this is a common issue... They supply torx bits and tool to remove, and the bits snap off without budging the screw. I haven't had this problem on my little planer with Byrd Shelix head, although I've only replaced a few cutters.

Stephen1 · June 15, 2023, 07:51:04 PM

Did someone tighten them in too tight out of the factory? A possibility. You already have another unit so you have a good idea on what you are doing.
Yesterday I was reversing the debarker blade as I has installed the new one the wrong way. I could not get it to budge, got the Johnson bar out. I'm thinking I just did this 2 weeks ago, what the h#$$. Maybe I'm turning the wrong. I go get the impact drill, turn on the compressor and hit the trigger, boom out comes the bolt. I'm okay is what I said... :D

Larry · June 15, 2023, 09:10:42 PM

Grizzly = made in China $$ Byrd Shelix = made in USA $$$$$$$$$$'s

I was told by an engineer the countersink angle on the screw head is vary slightly different from the angle on the insert. This is how they keep the screw from falling out.

Excellent advice from Machinebuilder and OGH. I have done it the same way on import machines brought to me. Yet to have that problem on a Byrd and I've rotated inserts many times. Think my planer is running on the last edge now.

21incher · June 15, 2023, 10:35:25 PM

I had with the same thing with my new grizzly planer from China. Came with a bad batch of inserts and all had to be replaced. The screws were all over torqued. I found I had the best luck using an impact driver and high quality bit to get them started. The ones that stripped out I wound up taking a sharp center punch and tap the screw in the loosening direction as close to the edge of the head as I could get. A couple good taps and they were loose and a new bit would remove them. Last grizzly tool I purchased.

teakwood · June 18, 2023, 11:41:15 AM

Quote from: Brad_bb on June 15, 2023, 02:04:31 PMI wonder if you tapped the screw head with a punch before trying it, if that would help it break free?

I do that if they don't give. brake the cutter and the screw will be loose.

i don't think they come overtightened from the factory, it's just although the insert system if genius it's also a real PITA. you will always brake something, bit, screw or insert. there is no turning them around without any lost. the byrd are definitively a lot better. on my brand new 25" grizzly extreme planer i already had like 10 broken inserts just from normal use. i haven't even rotated them yet. before i rotate them i definitively buy lots of spare inserts first.

Ljohnsaw · June 18, 2023, 12:22:34 PM

I have my old BelSaw planer that I was using yesterday thinking I really need to sharpen the blades. Maybe I'll see if I can get a Shelix head for it. Then I read this thread and all the problems you all see...

teakwood · June 19, 2023, 08:25:39 AM

don't get me wrong, i take a spiral cutter a hundred times over a straight knife, will never go back. they have some troubles but the gain over straight cutter is just wow. nicer cutter, less noise, less kw, no stupid blade adjustments

Brad_bb · June 21, 2023, 01:58:55 AM

Quote from: ljohnsaw on June 18, 2023, 12:22:34 PM
I have my old BelSaw planer that I was using yesterday thinking I really need to sharpen the blades. Maybe I'll see if I can get a Shelix head for it. Then I read this thread and all the problems you all see...

My Shelix head has not been any problem, it's the grizzly spiral head that I have screw issues. BTW, I haven't tried any of the tricks suggested yet, but will shortly. As Teakwood said, the benefits probably outweigh this issue.

teakwood · June 21, 2023, 08:02:14 AM

I'm waiting for my torque wrench to arrive, then i will turn all the insert on my jointer (byrd cutterhead) and on my 25" grizzly (i assume grizzly cutterhead but no idea which brand inserts they use) this will be a fun task, bending over the cutterheads for about 5 hours, we will see how it goes. i expect troubles and broken inserts from the grizzly head. there are so many different inserts measurements around i really had to do a extensive google search to get the correct onces. i always liked the Ceratizit brand, made in Luxemburg, high quality cutters. don't get overwhelmed by their insert catalog, they even have different grades for the same cutter

https://cdn.plansee-group.com/is/content/planseemedia/ceratizit/downloads/pdf/solutions-for-wood-machining/EN.pdf

teakwood · June 27, 2023, 07:52:58 AM

Turned the cutters on my four sider and i was surprised that i didn't had on single problem, all screws came loose easily, no cutter broke, everything peachy. Probably really depends on the cutters quality you have, this where all Ceratizit, superb quality.

when they were new

teakwood · July 03, 2023, 08:13:33 AM

turned the jointer inserts, no problem. Byrd quality

and still in the process of the 25" planer, going good. just a slow and tedious task.

the worst is the cleaning of the inserts. i use a small wire brush

teakwood · July 30, 2023, 09:20:50 AM

Finally i got the torque wrench, it's pretty good

ladylake · August 01, 2023, 07:22:38 AM

If there is any chance they put locktite on those screws a little heat will loosen them up. Steve

Brad_bb · August 02, 2023, 09:52:33 PM

Quote from: teakwood on July 30, 2023, 09:20:50 AM
Finally i got the torque wrench, it's pretty good

Is that wheeler torque wrench a gun smithing tool? Also can you explain to me the cleaning of the inserts? I figured you just rotated them? Any build up I could see on the used edge, but should be on the new edge, no?

nopoint · August 02, 2023, 11:11:58 PM

Use a torque wrench!!! I had problems with broken inserts etc, started using a torque wrench and they went away. It's less torque than one might guess, check the specs!

teakwood · August 03, 2023, 08:05:21 AM

Quote from: Brad_bb on August 02, 2023, 09:52:33 PM
Quote from: teakwood on July 30, 2023, 09:20:50 AM
Finally i got the torque wrench, it's pretty good

Is that wheeler torque wrench a gun smithing tool? Also can you explain to me the cleaning of the inserts? I figured you just rotated them? Any build up I could see on the used edge, but should be on the new edge, no?

Yes, it's a set for gun tools, comes with different torque inserts. the torque for the cutter inserts is 45 inch/lbs.
For cleaning you unscrew the cutter totally and clean it with the small steel wire tooth brush. the cutter doesn't need to be shiny like new, but on several side there will be dust build up, those have to go as they would get pressed into the seat and alter the height of the cutter or make a bad seat and break the insert while tightening. then rotate the instert and tighten.

busenitzcww · August 14, 2023, 07:39:06 PM

Brad, I just went through the exact same thing on my Extrema double headed surfacer. I found that if I took the torx T-20 bit and used that as my punch it not only broke it loose but made sure my bit was fully seated. I had a couple strip out before I figured this out and resorted to taking a T-25 bit and grinding the inside of the corners down with a cutoff wheel in a dermel and made it into a T-22.5 ;-) that helped me rescue a couple more screws. I'd agree with others and say that most people over tighten them.

Brad_bb · September 29, 2023, 10:00:46 PM

I finally fixed my cutters. I did as recommended here. First drilling with a 7/64 bit about 1/4 deep to center the hole, and then with a 13/64 until the screw head came off. I used cutting oil too. I used a wood wedge to keep the cutter head from rotating just snug with my palm. Be careful by being gentle. Once the head was off, the screw was free in the hole. I used one of those twisty easy-out bits to unscrew the rest of the screw. I did not need to tap it in, but just wedge it in and rotate counterclockwise.

Tips:
I use WIHA brand torx bits. They are superior to any I've tried. They don't deform or break off. They are German made and they really did an excellent job with the material and heat treat. Better than another bit brand I've used.

I'm going to order one of those "Wheeler F.A.T Stix" T Torque tool kits that teakwood showed. They have them on Amazon.

Lastly, I don't know where I found it, maybe in the Grizzley manual, but I bought some of this Boesheild that i've been applying to the planer bed, and other tool beds and it does prevent rust in the summer humidity. I recommend it.

btulloh · September 29, 2023, 11:54:12 PM

Glad you got it sorted Brad. It's never good when a machine is down. Quality makes a big difference in things like torx or hex drivers. Screwdrivers too.

One other thing to look at on those fasteners can be very important. There's also a torx plus profile that's used on higher torque fasteners. The wings are a bit thicker than regular torx. My Byrd heads use the torx plus fasteners. I learned the hard way when I stripped one. A regular torx driver will seem to be fine but will have a litter play if used in a torx plus fastener. Less bearing surface so easier to strip out.

That Wheeler screwdriver is a good thing to have. You'll be glad to have that in your tool box. Especially if you fo any gun work. Doesn't hurt to have a 1/4" torque wrench as well.

Congrats on getting the planer head back in action!