Douglas Fir Discoloring

[EOLogtruckin]

Hi everyone,
  I ran into some discoloring on some Doug Fir I am milling. I'm not a tree wizard or even a tree whisperer, but I think our local Doug Fir is classified as Interior, not Coastal, if it matters. I wonder if it is starting to rot. Something I haven't ran into before. It seems to be mostly in the sapwood. 
 The logs were cut in Dec and Jan a little over a year ago. They were put in a deck on skids with some Ponderosa and sprinkled through out the summer. Frost every month of the year and very few days above 85 in the summer, here at the house. What do y'all say? 

[moodnacreek]

Making lumber starts at the stump. Your log end photo looks like a log that has been off the stump too long. Or it could of been a bad tree like growing in a bad spot. So if the wood was clean and fresh when felled and now looks like the photo it sat too long.

[Don P]

 If it was white pine I would call it coffee stain, or brown stain,  resulting from the conditions Doug described, it was too long from stump to dry. I think it is extractives and enzyme related. If that is correct it is not rot but the conditions are there.

Since we are talking grading on another thread your question might have been, "Is this incipient decay?" (The big word for early rot). In this case I think you are seeing something closer to a sliced apple turning brown.

[EOLogtruckin]

Thanks for the comments guys. 
This log came from a predominant Ponderosa and White Fir stand. I wonder if it was dead standing because the bark is starting to come off a little on the butt log. Not sure if there is a way to tell if you don't see it standing. I know the White Fir in the same stand was being logged because of a fungus concern. I have milled 10 or 15 ponderosa logs from that same stand and they show no sign of any issue thankfully.  Thanks again.
 

[beenthere]

Possibly a dead tree was taken down and stored? 

[97redjeep]

Just for curiosity sake, as I don't have Douglas fur, what are the holes in the last picture there, are they bug holes? And also, with the stain does it degrade the wood? Genuinely curious. Even with pine, does the stain degrade the wood?

[Don P]

Bluestain and brown stain do not degrade the strength of the wood. Bluestain is a fungi that eats the sugar within  the cell cavity, brown is enzyme/extractives. These are not rotters but they are an indicator that the conditions for rot are present.

One appearance grading term, I guess if the denim crowd is calling for more blue , BSND- Bright Sapwood No Defect. I didn't make that up.

All that said, if it is structural I want bright lumber. Rotters damage strength before we can say incipient decay. I just made pallets out of a blue pine. Despite what the professors say, that fungi turned the cell wall into swiss cheese looking for sugar. The strength might be there but the wood is more easily wetted, I don't even use it for siding.

[EOLogtruckin]

97redjeep, the holes in the end are where I stabbed a rod into it to see how "punky" it was. 

Here is a picture of the next section of that same log. I bucked it down to desired board length (just over 5') to work around the pitch seams in it.



A picture of some of the bark damage or decay.



It may be skid or felling damage too. I don't know. 

[Skeans1]

Hi everyone,
  I ran into some discoloring on some Doug Fir I am milling. I'm not a tree wizard or even a tree whisperer, but I think our local Doug Fir is classified as Interior, not Coastal, if it matters. I wonder if it is starting to rot. Something I haven't ran into before. It seems to be mostly in the sapwood.
 The logs were cut in Dec and Jan a little over a year ago. They were put in a deck on skids with some Ponderosa and sprinkled through out the summer. Frost every month of the year and very few days above 85 in the summer, here at the house. What do y'all say?

That stain is the beginning of rot, that tree when standing has been dead roughly 3 to 4 years, in another year it's be very soft and punky.

[EOLogtruckin]

I have read about blue stain in Doug Fir but never seen any so I don't know exactly what is would look like. This discolored wood definitely has a distinct smell that is different from the "normal" DF wood.
When sawing Ponderosa it all smells the same to me, blue stain or not.

[Don P]

Skeans lives there, it is "incipient decay", the early stages of rot.
One of the things we do when trying to assess decay in buildings is a "pick test". A fine icepick type tool, I like a minature screwdriver, stick it crossgrain under the surface a little and lift the grain free of the board. Look to see if it lifts a nice long fiber or if it breaks short and brash over the pick.
Here we go;

I just noticed who's video that is, he writes engineering columns for several building trade magazines.

[EOLogtruckin]

Thanks again guys, and that video is informative Don. I'm learning a bit here on the forum again. It's a helpful place!  

[EOLogtruckin]

So to expand a bit, will the part of the log that has no stain produce good solid lumber? Or is the entire log affected? Will the clear boards rot earlier than normal? Assuming it gets dried properly of course.

[Skeans1]

I have read about blue stain in Doug Fir but never seen any so I don't know exactly what is would look like. This discolored wood definitely has a distinct smell that is different from the "normal" DF wood.
When sawing Ponderosa it all smells the same to me, blue stain or not.

Is the smell kind of wet and moldy for lack of a better way to describe it? That's not blue stain it's actual rot, blue stain in Doug fir is just a stain before rot will set in down the road normally.

[Don P]

Rot, decay fungi, will stop doing anything below about 25% moisture so if you cut and dry it will not progress further. Is it worth using is a tough call. You heard what Thor said and it is what I've read my whole career. If it passes the pick test and you have a need for studs I wouldn't worry much, if it is a bending member I'd be hesitant.

This is from the grading manual;

[Don P]

Reading through my class notes, I was trained on SYP and its been ~20 years. There is a star I drew beside a typed note that says "Sapwood decay is not allowed in any of the NGR grades and then my handwritten note, "IN SYP". I believe there is limited exception in some species for instance, I believe white speck in dougfir.

Here we go, look at stain and unsound wood, This is for #2, #1 and SS do not allow unsound wood, #3 spots or streaks less than 1/3 of the cross section (don't use #3 in bending, if at all, real #2 is plenty gnarly);



I'm heading into the weeds, partially because we're talking grading on another thread. I'm going to put a link over there. All the grading stuff I posted is from the NGR, sort of the master grading manual. The "rules writing agencies" in each region spin off their manuals for their species based on this one. There may be minor differences or explanations. So if you want to dig through the "correct" manual I think it is going to be on the WWPA website

[EOLogtruckin]

Skeans1, 
 yes I would describe it as a little bit of a sweet and musty smell, thats why I was afraid of rot. I tight stacked a few Ponderosa 4x4s in a closed shop one time and they molded severely in 3 or 4 days. That smelled strong but it didn't have the sweet part in it. 

[EOLogtruckin]

With a pick test like the one described in the video above I get the long splinters but I don't get the snapping so I'm guessing the decay is in an early enough stage to still be holding pretty solid. But for how long? 
Oh well, I need some more skids around any way I guess. 

[Magicman]

I am reluctant to saw "old" logs where the wood fiber has shrunk away and left the growth rings higher/proud.  To me, they are too far gone to produce quality lumber.  I see an example of that in the third picture.

[EOLogtruckin]

Thanks Magicman, Those tips are exactly what I'm looking for.

I found some holes that I didn't make. The last 10 feet or so of the log has some critters under the bark. Can someone ID them for me? Do they signify anything like length of time tree has been dead, or cut, or anything else of value?

[Magicman]

They make a very tasty mid-morning snack. 

Yummy and no cooking required. 

[beenthere]

Those wood borer grubs are what I thought made the holes in the log end (first post pics shown) that you later said were from punching to test for decay. Probably transform into a beetle. Of the four holes, maybe two were grub holes in last pic of post #1 ??

[Skeans1]

Thanks Magicman, Those tips are exactly what I'm looking for.

I found some holes that I didn't make. The last 10 feet or so of the log has some critters under the bark. Can someone ID them for me? Do they signify anything like length of time tree has been dead, or cut, or anything else of value?

Rough guess would be 3 to 4 years, once you start to see the external signs on Doug Fir it's normally been dying or dead for at least a year or two.

[EOLogtruckin]

They make a very tasty mid-morning snack. 

Yummy and no cooking required. 

Somebody needs to identify this critter now. And the little one in his
 teeth too! 

[EOLogtruckin]

beenthere, I poked it 4 times so anything else you see is not my doing. I didn't run into any grub tracks in any boards though. Just under the bark.

I just cut it up into blocking working around the pitch seams and stain the best I could.  We'll see how the rest of it burns.