Hardwood harvest on ~35+ acres following Hurricane Helene

JD Guy · October 07, 2024, 01:24:58 PM

In full disclosure I'm asking this question for my son about his property, in addition neither of us have ever had any experience with loggers, foresters, timber buyers or sawmills.
My hope is to tap the knowledge of those that are in the respective businesses to give us a better understanding of what to expect in the process.
Hurricane Helene has dropped approximately 30-40 very nice large old white oak and red oaks, maybe more, along with the adjacent trees that were damaged and need salvaged. These are not yard trees. Son and Daughter in Law are very upset as they spend a lot of time in their "forest" keeping it up and harvesting a few trees for firewood.
So with that said I would like to humbly ask for suggestions on where to begin?
Again, thank you all for your generosity..

Magicman · October 07, 2024, 05:52:59 PM

I would start with your County Forester. Your Extension Office should be able to guide you in that direction.

There are many questions/answers, some of which you may not like. Normal logging deals with vertical trees, some or most of which yours are not. Hangups are dangerous and time consuming to deal with.

Finding a logger willing to deal with your situation could be a challenge especially when there are so many landowners in the same or similar dilemma.

JD Guy · October 07, 2024, 06:00:22 PM

@Magicman THANKS! Son was going to call Clemson University to contact their forestry department. Is that a waste of time? I'll suggest the County Forester. Much Appreciated!

Magicman · October 07, 2024, 06:06:32 PM

I forgot to add that I have personally been in your exact situation and similar acreage with 30"+ Oaks and "money trees" on the ground and no logger would even come and look.

Nothing is a waste of time if you are able to make the proper contacts.

TreefarmerNN · October 07, 2024, 06:17:02 PM

The South Carolina Department of Forestry has put together a resource for landowners affected by Helene: https://www.scfc.gov/management/landowner-services/

Here's a quote from part of the website in case you have limited access to the internet.

"If you own between 10 and 1,000 acres of woodlands, please call us today at (803) 896-8800. We'll come out to your land, walk it with you and make recommendations for how you can manage it for timber income, wildlife habitat improvement and any number of other objectives. Best of all, it's completely free!

Find your forester
Or if you want to connect directly with the project forester in your area, use our simple county locator to find all your local South Carolina Forestry Commission forestry, wildfire, law enforcement and administrative personnel."

Ron Scott · October 07, 2024, 06:24:08 PM

Yes, contact your local County or State Service Forester or a local Consulting Forester serving your area. They can help you determine if you might have a viable salvage and market for your storm damaged timber.

Magicman · October 07, 2024, 06:24:41 PM

This sounds encouraging.

Do it now before the line gets longer.

nativewolf · October 07, 2024, 07:27:41 PM

I would add that the mill situation right now is very bad, in general. Loggers have been leaving the industry and few know how to actually do a selective harvest and not cause more damage to the surrounding forests than you may have started with. It's just a dying art and the equipment used in clearcutting is not conducive to your harvest needs unless they just want it clearcut.

Secondly, there are hundreds of thousands of impacted acres. That is years of supply in that area that will never be utilized because it will rot before next spring. In upstate SC you have between now and May to get it sold and cut. Just cautionary notes. By may the mold and insect populations will be doing their job of turning the trees into soil. The white oaks will last longer than the reds but both will go quickly enough. If they are really large, over 30" in diameter (or 100+ in circumference) it helps.

30 big trees is only a few truck loads and no logger you want working for you is moving to harvest 15k bdft. So your son would have to look at a pretty big haircut on the forests. Even in a non-hurricane environment it would be very hard to get us to move to a 35 acre site with a home....virtually impossible unless it was really magnificent. Maybe get together with neighboring landowners and work together to get a logger, 100 acres sounds much better than 35. 300 acres is even better. A small logger salvaging on 300 acres could maybe finish by May but don't expect any "cleanup" which may be what they are after.

Not to rain on a great idea its just that it is probably not going to be feasible. Far better to have called the extension forester when they bought the property than the weeks after a hurricane.

Re cleanup: It's dangerous. Downed oaks have incredible tension on the branches, the tree can roll, etc. They are killers. I was coming on the forum to report the very sad news about a death in PA to a family logging crew. The brother that did handfelling failed to see a snag and dropped a tree into it and he was crushed by a falling limb. His son gave him CPR for 25 mins til the helicopter arrived and he died in flight. He spent a lifetime in the woods, it is what he loved and he brought his son into the business.

I would strongly recommend asking your son and daughter-in-law to accept what nature has done. It will recover, don't try to keep it too clean. Learn what is and isn't a young oak. Grow a young oak forests, that's what America is missing.

Just advice from the woods. Good luck!

Riwaka · October 07, 2024, 10:01:25 PM

This YouTuber took video of the Helene blow down.

https://youtu.be/x0cksCCViOc?si=kTpS23WRuoTiEq0j

Large and heavy machinery is usually a standard idea when dealing with such a situation.

Southside · October 07, 2024, 10:54:21 PM

Completely agree with nativewolf here. Yes it sucks, but the honest answer is that odds are against getting much out of what they are facing. I own mechanical harvesting equipment, feller buncher, cut to length processor, a grapple skidder, and a complete sawmill set up including a kiln and 4 sided moulder. Three and a half years ago we had a massive ice storm here, 3 weeks without power, trees down everywhere, others broken off and I had a LOT of quality timber bent, up rooted, damaged, etc over 250 acres. I wasn't able to salvage a single marketable log.

Trees that encounter that kind of force often have significant internal damage that greatly reduces their economic value. Loggers and mills know this, they aren't trying to take advantage of the situation. The stuff I tried to keep alive mostly all came down in time. Disgusting? Absolutely, but aside from firewood there wasn't anything I could do.

It's worth calling and seeing what is available, but don't get upset if no options appear, they were delt a crappy hand through no fault of their own.

Sorry to have such a poor outlook on your situation.

JD Guy · October 08, 2024, 05:18:33 PM

Very sincerely appreciate all of the great information from y'all with your first hand experience in the industry. I'll share all of this with my son. From what I'm hearing if he gets any monetary value at all it would be a win. Sad part is when they purchased the property a few years ago he paid $15K for the timber value on top of the price of the acreage. The previous owner was getting ready to log it. Very sad situation for them.

Still open to additional suggestions, thank y'all very much!

thecfarm · October 08, 2024, 07:12:27 PM

Them hung up and up rotted trees are hard to cut. I have only cut about 10-20 in all my years. I hate them things!!!!
Never know what will happen.

Ron Scott · October 09, 2024, 05:24:39 PM

Especially hazardous for the hand cutter. Safer to use mechanical harvesting.

JD Guy · October 10, 2024, 03:22:47 PM

Quote from: thecfarm on October 08, 2024, 07:12:27 PMThem hung up and up rotted trees are hard to cut. I have only cut about 10-20 in all my years. I hate them things!!!!
Never know what will happen.

Agreed. 95% of them are lying on the ground. Not rotted trees all perfectly healthy. I misspoke on the acreage it's 50 +/- but according to y'all it's still a small tract for a logger.
Thanks!

Ron Wenrich · October 10, 2024, 06:01:36 PM

I would get a consultant or extension forester to give you an idea of the value of the trees damaged or lost. If you can't move the timber, at least you could claim a casualty loss on your taxes. I had a couple of clients do that when we had Gypsy moth damage. Did your son have a timber appraisal when he bought the land or is the $15k just an estimate between him and the former owner?

I moved a lot of timber on small lots. It depends on access, volume and quality, at least in my area.

JD Guy · October 12, 2024, 05:26:57 PM

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on October 10, 2024, 06:01:36 PMI would get a consultant or extension forester to give you an idea of the value of the trees damaged or lost. If you can't move the timber, at least you could claim a casualty loss on your taxes. I had a couple of clients do that when we had Gypsy moth damage. Did your son have a timber appraisal when he bought the land or is the $15k just an estimate between him and the former owner?

I moved a lot of timber on small lots. It depends on access, volume and quality, at least in my area.

There was a contract between the original land owner and a logger that my son acquired (bought) along with the land. The contract has since expired. I've been talking to him about getting his CPA contacted to see if there's any tax implications good or bad. At the very least if the harvest amount falls under the original contract price there could be some tax savings. I'm not sure if the sales contract on his purchase of the property listed the timber value separately or was just lumped into the sales price. I'm no accountant but quite sure it could make a significant difference.
Thanks for your input!!!

JD Guy · October 24, 2024, 12:47:57 PM

Quick update. Son has met with three loggers/sawmill buyers and is waiting on bids from them. He was pretty impressed with the professionalism of all of them. He has also come to terms with what he is dealing with and going to make the best of a bad situation. All of the buyers were very complementary of the quality of the timber but were quick to point out that as a salvage operation the logging costs would be more than what a typical harvest might be. That was expected. Now to award the work and get at it!

One question about how the log tally is verified by the landowner. Are there checks and balances so the seller knows that he is being treated fairly on the count and quality of the logs regarding the grade? Veneer? Lumber? etc. One of the buyers indicated that they felt a buyer for making whiskey barrels was going to have a high interest. Son told him that knowing his trees were going into whiskey barrels made him happy!

Thanks again to all who gave us valuable advice on the subject it's very much appreciated

TreefarmerNN · October 24, 2024, 02:44:35 PM

Your son should ask for copies of the load tickets as delivered to the mill(s). If possible, set up a game camera so trucks go by. If ten trucks go by on Tuesday, there should be ten tickets although there's some variation with trucks delivering the next day.

Barrel stave logs are among some of the higher value logs. Not quite veneer prices but much more than flooring or some of the other uses. There is a hardwood logger on this site that does a great job of sorting out the various logs- hopefully he will chime in.

I would also ask for a weekly settlement. Loggers don't usually like that but if (heaven forbid), you wait until the end of the job and think it's coming up short there's no leverage at all on the logger. Settle weekly, make sure there's a ticket for every load and there's fewer issues at the end.

JD Guy · October 24, 2024, 06:23:55 PM

@TreefarmerNN Thanks so much. This is exactly the type of knowledge he needs to be somewhat versed on the process. I think the folks he is talking with are all good, honest folks but it makes sense to know what to expect! Very good info!

Ron Scott · October 24, 2024, 07:28:33 PM

Have a Timber Harvest Contract spelling out the terms of the harvest between the Buyer and Seller and a Performance Bond on the job before it begins. This may be a Cash Bond, Bank Bond, or Letter of Escrow from the Buyer.

Also require a cash deposit on the estimated volume of timber to be harvested before cutting.

Woodfarmer · October 24, 2024, 07:34:37 PM

There was a lot more value in that 50 acres than 15k, more like 50k.

A certain percentage of the trees will have stress damage but don't let that deter your son, I'm sure there are 100's of marketable trees.

Riwaka · October 24, 2024, 09:20:30 PM

Ideally the situation might be something like RFID tagging/ barcoding every log loaded on a truck and x-ray scanning every log for defects, metal etc. (If wanting to saw rather than low value pulp/ paper, osb/ mdf boards, etc.

Cascade Harwood Chehalis, Washington

https://www.microtec.eu/en/references/ct-washington-ct-log-transforming-cascade-hardwood-and-the-industry

Riwaka · October 25, 2024, 06:45:31 AM

Looks like the Pines were hit by Helene too.

Georgia Forestry Commission said Hurricane Helene passed through 8.9 million acres / 3.6 million hectares of forest.

Is anyone developing a commercial tree program for Hurricanes, buttress tree trunk etc.
Hitachi track loader will be busy.

https://youtu.be/lG8eZeeVY_8?si=iHOTjwlUrFD8nys_

JD Guy · **Yesterday** at 07:26:40 PM

Thanks Guys!
While all of the loggers/sawmill reps were quick to come out for an evaluation they've not been very prompt to produce any kind of offer/contract. Son is interested in getting the process started sooner rather than later. They are not returning his calls. Son runs a business of his own with bobcats, excavators, etc. and is always quick to respond to calls with his customers be they new or previous.

Perhaps this is typical for the industry or they are simply overwhelmed with the amount of available work?

TreefarmerNN · **Yesterday** at 09:32:07 PM

I expect the loggers are both overwhelmed and trying to pick the sites where they can do the most work in the least time. It's a bit like hospital triage for them plus they know they have a limited time to salvage the available timber both because it will start to degrade and because the mills will also get overloaded.