Another shop thread, small space, too much stuff

[aigheadish]

Hey Gang. This thought just came to me yesterday, so I'm requesting some feedback from you guys that have done a lot of woodworking.

I, a few years ago, had a weird area on the back of my house, that had a roof over it but no floor. I'd wanted to have a shop, so we had some concrete poured and I framed the area in.







As mentioned above I have too much stuff. The shop turned out to be around 14' x 23' or so but I need to measure again since I've shrunk it down a bit.

Unfortunately, my first cut on the table saw proved that the room was too small. I had to stand in a doorway, have the table saw situated just so, then I could run something through. I didn't really consider needing like 8 feet (at least) on either side of the saw. I was mad.

Since then, I've optimized a bit, rearranged a bit, and I'm finding ways that work, but the shop is still too small. I crabbed at the wife about it being too small and she suggested extending it to the left on the pictures above. That idea is ok but expensive and a lot of work.

I'm not sure what made me think of it but there is a weird hallway kind of space from my garage to what is now my shop. It was the shop area when we first moved in, but it too got too small very quickly. This picture is before the bigger shop and you can tell how clustered it is. I'm now using the area for some cabinets on the left and lumber storage on the right.



The thought I had yesterday was to blow out the back wall, on the right side of the doorway. There is currently about 5 feet of space to the right of the door frame. Then use that hallway as a spot to keep the tablesaw with infeed/outfeed and miter saw with a big bench to correspond to that too.



I'll try to draw up a real layout of the whole area, but my long post is, for now, begging the question, how much space does a table saw need? I currently have the fold up DeWalt job site saw and I don't anticipate upgrading it for a while, but I'm thinking if I can add 15 or 20 feet of lateral space and be able to shove wood all the way into where my shop is now behind that doorway above, it may help solve my problems and it'd be more or less free to do.

I'd like to avoid cutting this wall out and rearranging everything in that hallway if I'm still going to be mad about the space I have. What do you guys think?

The amount of moving things in my shop to move other things so I can do something is absurd and frustrating.

[WV Sawmiller]

   You know asking the design committee to convene and help solve your space problems probably should be posted in the "Did something dumb" thread.  Now you have opened Pandora's box so stand by for the answers.

   I am sure you need to upgrade to 3 phase power and need a Hepa filter vacuum system as well as a clean room. 

   Good luck. The only real suggestion I could offer is look for ways to go vertical but since I do all my work in an outside environment why listen to me?

[Ljohnsaw]

I'll wait for the floorplan. But 18' is about the bare minimum for 8' goods. Since your saw is portable, going outside for the really long stuff is doable.

My shop is 16x28 or so on three levels. I envy your single slab.

[rusticretreater]

Yep, 8' in, 8' out plus room to move a bit.  Is that wall load bearing?

More shelves.  An outdoor shed for storage of wood, rarely used tools, supplies.

There are videos on guys who make cool storage solutions for stacking up tools and making space.

[aigheadish]

Thanks guys!

WV I didn't think about the design committee! I should know better!

I started drawing something up but the dimensions are basically fake until I get do some measuring, which will change the below a bit. I think my biggest concern is how much space is needed on the right side of a table saw. I think the fence runs out a few feet. The removed wall would be just below the plywood pile in the drawing.

This is what it generally looks like before rolling something around to move it. I could probably gain a couple feet by removing a chair or two but I use them all (OK, one is just a footrest). There is also some random junk in the empty space like a random toolbox or box of scrap wood. The Hall is also full of a bunch of junk that I'll have to find new homes for. The welder goes there, some other scrap wood boxes, more hand-me-down tools, and above the cabinets in the hall are stuff like circular saws, sanders, a shelf for glues and lubes...

This, if I do it, will be a big move but as mentioned it'll be basically free and I think a refinement of the space. If the wall is load bearing it will be held up the same way it currently is. I'll have to take a look, I think there is a big laminated beam back there, and it's stretched out to the corner on the right already. I'll beef up the supports regardless.




The below is something I've already got started. The bench on the right was holding my engraving laser, but I built a little shelf for it under my big bench. Otherwise that bench is just another junk collection space, so I cleared it off and flipped it up on its side until my kid gets home from Mexico so we can drag it out to the barn. Maybe tonight or tomorrow I'll move the junk around to more or less like it is below.



I'm on a design roll now that I have stuff drawn. This one would take some concessions from the wife to eat up garage space with lumber storage, currently there is another workbench along that wall where the lumber would go. This is how I feel like this would work, with the table saw being build on a bench above the cabinets that I'd slide over. I guess I'd need to think about a temporary/removeable wall to keep the heat in, in the winter... Hmm.

[beenthere]

Not much needed if the table saw is movable on drop down wheels. My "shop" is very crowded but has worked out well for me for many jobs including a lathe, a jointer, radial arm saw, drill press and two-motor shop vacuum. About 14' x 14' including work benches and belt sander.
Jobs include all the finish work and paneling in a three bedroom home. Kitty corner to get 8' boards and plywood cut up out in the garage with a portable saw. 
Table saw serves as a table for collection of "things". 6" jointer back behind the table saw. 

[aigheadish]

14x14? You are using that space very wisely! Nice looking shop beenthere. 

[SwampDonkey]

My old shop was less than half the size of the new shop, in part of an old barn. Was 8' x 28'. Tablesaw in the middle, jointer on the left along the wall. Bandsaw on the right along the wall. Drill press on the left further in from the jointer. Lathe on the south end, stove on the north end. Wrap around bench under the lathe. A belt sander on a stand on the right in front of the bench and a tool cabinet beside it. Planer on the right on the north end. I could walk in and down the middle to the stove. The rest of the barn stored the lumber, mostly overhead. That was the shop for 20 years. Only lumber in the new shop is on drying racks for the project at hand, rest is in the barn. 

[21incher]

I have the same problem and turned the cabinet saw and jointer to a 30 degree angle in the center of my shop for handling up to 10 ft boards.  My planer and router table are on wheels. I'm limited  to 2 ft wide rips in plywood sheets on the tablesaw but the track saw is my goto for sheets. The Bora centipede stands make collapsible benches. I am totally out of space after squeezing in 5 lasers that really need to be moved to another area. 

[Big_eddy]

My answer is wheels.  My garage/shop is multi-purpose so everything is on wheels. Welder, tablesaw, welding table, work bench, mitre saw, jointer, thickness planer......

Depending on what I'm doing, what I need rolls into place and everything else lives against the walls.  On a good day I can clear a large enough spot to get one end of a vehicle in. 

It's not heated and I normally work with door open which means that in feed and out feed length is not an issue, but with the saw on wheels I can position it wherever makes the most sense for the job at hand.

[SwampDonkey]

I can move any of my machines with a table lift rolled under the machine stands. Scoot'r under, heist and roll.   The only machine I really need to move is the planer, it has it's own wheels that activate with an outboard coaster you step on. Easy peasy.

[rusticretreater]

You can also attach stuff to the joists in the ceiling to hold stuff.  Lumber racks, tilt down boxes, platforms.

[aigheadish]

I've got wheels on everything too but everything was buried. And check out my clamp rack below, for something attached to the ceiling!



I'm pretty excited about it. I talked to the wife about pulling the wall out and she's good with it but she did say "so long as your stuff doesn't move out to the garage" so I'll have to come up with a lumber plan. She suggested in the rafters but that's much too inconvenient, though it may help the heating issue. 

This was before or mid initial move. 



This is after! I'll move the big table out soon. 





So much floor space! I haven't seen this much space since the room was built. I'll still have to roll a bunch of stuff around but it's much, much better! 

Here's clamp storage. I almost barfed when I was moving these pipe clamps and out poured a bunch of stinkbugs. 

[Old Greenhorn]

I've had my head buried back about 200 years for the last few days, but I have been coming here to keep up with this thread and waited until it developed so more. I think all this talk is helpful to develop what needs to be done, and the winter time is pretty good to look at it and get ready for a big spring break up. I have had small shops in other lives and managed to squeeze a lot in, but it takes some effort to make it workable. I see a lot of stuff in your shop that can be made much better But unfortunately, it won't cost much.
 So are you ready for some tough love?
 First, a lot o the problem is in one's head. We all have things we want to keep handy or things we never think about that we feel 'just have to be that way'.  Well, that's the first thing that has to go. Wipe a clean mental state in your mind. Imagine a clean empty building and ask yourself "Now what do I really need in here?" The start thinking that way all the time, do I need this here, and now? I have found that I kept a LOT of stuff in the shop I didn't need to. I was using it only rarely and it had no special requirements except not to be out in the weather. I moved a lot of stuff out to my storage sheds and boy did I gain some space. I can still fetch it back in when I need it, but use that space the rest of the year for other stuff. 
 You also have to be painfully efficient in your space usage and that means you have to make tough choices. Do I want the pretty stuff on the wall to look at, or do I want a shelf up there that will open up my workbench? Looking at the the first photo in you r previous post, you have a blank spot over those windows and around them. Putting up 12" deep shelves there all around the windows would probably store all you hand power tools. Make boxes that fit in those cubby hole shelves and label them. You just pull out the box that has the specific stuff for a particular job, use it, then shove it back in when your done. Start applying that though all around the shop and yo begin to pick up a lot of space quickly. As was mentioned, putting hangers on your rafters and hanging lumber up there (not on top of the rafters. Put flooring up on top of those rafters in a few places and you can put longer term storage stuff up there.
 I see you have 2 benches, do you need them both?
 One of the things I did was get rid of a lot of my cabinets, and some of them were very nice, but they just didn't suit what and how I needed to store stuff. Most of the stuff I had in them just disappeared into other paces in the shop and getting rid of the cabinet opened up a lot of floor space.
 With a small shop, you have to think 'by the job' rather than 'by the vision'. Put everything on wheels and have planned parking spots for everything. Just put out what you need, when you need it, then put it back. Challenge your own thoughts. Do those sawhorses REALLY need to live in the shop? Couldn't they just sit outside the door under the overhang until I need them? Maybe you could make a cubby box the table saw would slide into, but the miter saw could live on top of that box all the time? Take those cool license plate off the wall and nail them to the faces of you ceiling joists and you just opened up wall space for shelving.
 It comes down to a huge bundle of little things that add up to a lot of space.  I used to try to make one very specific purpose built shelf or storage aid every week, then it was once a month. But I am always re-thinking my choices and sometimes making things over and better. Sometimes I make something that has a bigger (positive) effect than I expected and I will then expand on that. Sometimes miracles happen. In my shop, I don't just believe in miracles, I RELY on them.
 The usual caveats apply here, I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, yadda yadda.... But what I am trying to do, with tender love, is give you a tender bump in the butt and tell you to re-think everything, not because it's 'wrong' but because it can be much better for you.
 Make no mistake, I am still not happy with my shop and continuously trying to look things over and make it better. What I am looking at now is a lot more work than I am quite ready to do because first I have to take down the tool boards I put up over 35 years ago when we first got this pace, then I have to rip out the EMT wiring and re-route, then I have to find another place to store some 12' C-channel stock, and THEN I can BEGIN the work for the improvements which will start with about 8 logs. I'd love to paint my floor while I'm at it, but $225 bucks for a bucket of paint is just crazy and I ain't got it.
 But you have to make choices and most aren't easy until you start seeing the big benefits. Just start 're-imagining' the space from a blank room.
 I know you can wind up with a shop that makes you smile when you walk in, but it won't start out easy. After I hit 'post' on this one I am going to re-read it with the mind of applying the same logic to my desk. In 35 years, in spite of cleaning every few years, I have NEVR come up with what I need to keep it (relatively) clean on a working basis. I admit, it's hard to do, but I think you've got this.

[WV Sawmiller]

   Well, when I saw the latest update to this thread was from Tom I could see the dollar signs rolling up in my mind but actually I see he treats others better than he does me and I see he offers some really nice and (let me restart my heart) inexpensive suggestions to simplify your/our operations. They are well worth reviewing over and over for most all of us. Well said Tom!

    While I am back in this thread another suggestion I will throw out there is magnetic strips like Harbor Freight sells. The ones I use are about a foot long and you can hang them right over your work space and use them to keep small items like drill buts, hex keys, screwdriver tips, chucks, jig saw blades, small wrenches, etc. right there where you need them.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well you are right Howard, all those little cheap hangy handy things are helpful, but I am finding it's easy to overdo it with each one, so using them where they fit, and finding something else for other problems is the way to go. I use those magnetic strips quite a bit, but they don't always fit the solutions. Harbor Freight also has some cheap flip open boxes that stack next to each other or vertical or both. When they go on sale I but a few. A month or two ago I made a wall mount and put the special hardware I buy for various special jobs and other oddballs that collect. I need them and use them, but they keep winding up in places I can't find them, so now I fixed that. It's all about right sizing stuff for what you do.
(Private aside to Howard, nobody else should read this: Don't worry, once Austin gets off on the right foothold, things will start to gain financial requirements, I know he's good for it. We started out slow with you too and you never noticed,)

[SwampDonkey]

Best thing I ever did for little stuff not used as often was a wall mounted tool cabinet. I made custom drawers and shelves in it as well as mounts for chisels, plane, boxes of router bits etc. There's saws, bits, plane, chisels, rasps, files, Dremel with bits, shaper blades with handle kit, square, chuck with key for the lathe, small dust collection system for Dremel, spoke shave, glass cutter, and stuff I can't recall. All in it's place and not piled on top of one another in a box. And I can open the doors and not have stuff fall on the floor.

[aigheadish]

As usual, thank you guys! Tom, I'm not as sensitive to constructive criticism as I may seem! I certainly, like you, have some "will nots" but I'm always up for discussion and there are plenty of ideas I hadn't thought of. Initially, the best one is changing license plate location to make storage space! 

I hang out in my shop more than I use it to do any real work. Yes, I want it to be functional but I also want to enjoy my after-work bourbon, in there. For now, I'm more inclined to keep it decorated interestingly than make shelves, but your points are well made and I'll take a few of them. 

The second bench is gone, it'll be moved out to the barn over the next few days. Currently, my hand tools live in that hall in some boxes on French cleats. It works but takes up space where my lumber could move to. I like the idea of some shelves, in the shop, to solve that. 

Thanks again guys. I read over all this stuff several times to help things sink in and there is valuable advice and experience. I appreciate it. 

[WV Sawmiller]

   The last time I was the victim recipient of  the design committee advice on a big project it was not the specific recommendations or suggestions I got that were most helpful, it was the spin-off thoughts that they triggered that worked better for my application. Keep that in mind. Take these suggestions with a grain of salt but see if they can be modified or adapted to something, maybe totally different, that work for your situation and application.

[Old Greenhorn]

It is both an iterative and cerebral process (sorry for those big words Howard). Yes, we all have those 'won't do' items, but it's very important to challenge those in your head. You think of something, then say 'nope, I can't/won't do that!' and you have to go the next step ask honestly ask yourself 'Why not?' and think hard on that. This is where i have made some great breakthroughs. For instance, I never wanted to get rid of those big machines I had worked so hard to get 40 years ago. But I finally 'fessed up' to reality and began the process of selling them off (for peanuts) and gaining the floor space. Now I only have my best Bridgeport and my biggest lathe left and I am seriously considering those for the chopping block.

[aigheadish]

Yeah, I know what you both mean. The second bench was one of the things I didn't want to get rid of just a few months ago, when I think my wife said something about it. I had the laser engraver on it, which rarely gets used and the TV which rarely gets used. Pulling it out was immediately the right decision. 

I love posting stuff like this because those spin-off thoughts. Just like hanging license plates... I really like how they line up and wanted to go all the way around the room, but if I hang them on ceiling joists I just gave myself permission to hunt for a whole bunch more! Even though I've hung other stuff off the joists I didn't think about license plates!

[Peter Drouin]

I wish you all the best of luck with the shops. I have one with all the tools—most built-in. I can rip and cut 20' stock.
Without moving stuff.
Ann went to see the father 6 years ago. I have not been out there since. Been thinking of selling it all. No one here to make stuff for.
I would post some pic but I went to Windows 11 with the PC and having trouble.

[Wlmedley]

I'm probably an exception to the norm but if I have a choice I would rather work outside than in a shop. I have a small post and beam structure between the house and my garage that I originally built for cookouts and outdoor gatherings but ended up using it for building various projects. The roof keeps the sun or rain off of me and I can see a lot better outside plus I feel that I breathe less sawdust. Even before I retired I didn't like working in the shop and I took a service truck as soon as I could get one and stayed mostly outside for 40years. I think my little shop that I have been fixing up will be nice when it's really cold and for doing glue ups or finish work but mostly it will be used to store tools. I built my garage years ago and thought boy this is going to really be nice when I need to work on a vehicle or tractor but in reality I usually open the garage door and work on whatever it is right outside the door and run in and out getting tools. I've never liked breathing exhaust fumes and I've never found any lights as good as sunlight.

[WV Sawmiller]

Bill,

   I do my work outside too but it is because I don't have a shop and also I don't do the fine finish work many of you guys do so the controlled climate and such is not as critical to me. 

   My "shop" is a 2' X 3' platform made of 1X6's nailed on top of 2 parallel 2X4s nailed to an upright on my lumber storage pole barn. On the back side of the upright is a 2 plug 110V electric outlet. I put my lunchbox planer on the platform or my drill press then set them aside and nail together crates and birdhouses and sand and drill mortises in my bench tops and assemble them there. 

   I need to move some more sawhorses over if I am working on planing long lumber. I don't mount my planer to the top so it is not real steady on long heavy pieces. I have a cheap table saw on a stand under the shed that I drag out as needed.

   It is not great but I muddle through with it sine that is all I have.

[Wlmedley]

Howard,most of my projects are pretty simple as I don't really have the skills to build something really complicated so maybe that's my main reason for not investing in a nicer workshop. I have never sold anything I make but don't seem to have any trouble giving stuff away. Mostly do it for fun and when it gets to where it's not fun anymore I'll probably quit. Wouldn't be out a lot as I haven't invested a lot.I like trying different things so I might try bull riding or maybe go into brain surgery