Homelite 540 vs. Jonsered 930 vs. Husqvarna 285

[weimedog]

Getting more run time on the vintage saws that are fun for me. Worked thru the Homelite last year. The Husqvarna 285 end of last year thru this spring and now working on Jonsered's. I have this 930 and a pair of 920's in play. The Husqvarna seems to be the one that will be put to actual work. A bit more simple, rugged & not as likely to have odd ball one of a kind parts break where I can't replace them. This is really a status report as much as anything..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euFoRlEJXjI

[DHansen]

Looks like you are having fun again, but shouldn't you be using a saw with a small mount bar?  Maybe 18" bar with a .325" pitch and right around 54cc's?

[Spike60]

That's it Dave, let him have it. I'm getting tired of winning all the arguments anyway. For instance....

As for odd ball parts needs, we have a huge stash of parts for the Jonny 900's. More than we'll ever need or use. 
That 285 I'm glad you are enjoying is however, a saw for which we have ZERO parts laying around for. 

Even if you can find them, the prices charged by some of these online parts sellers, (rapists?), can drain the fun out of the hobby, as fast as they drain the funds out of your wallet. 

[weimedog]

Looks like you are having fun again, but shouldn't you be using a saw with a small mount bar?  Maybe 18" bar with a .325" pitch and right around 54cc's?

Old but not dead I've pretty much benched any saw & bar concept under 24 inches here for actual work. Except a 543 for small stuff and carpentry. A 562 with a 24inch Oregon Versa Cut is my small saw unless it's in the Hobby saw & vintage saw camp Love the 262 from time to time. Want to build a HTSS version of the first gen 550. For what ever reason two thing seem to be chain tosser's for me, small mount and or light ( flexible ) bars.

[DHansen]

Benching your middleweights! You have more energy than me.  Or your drinking that Red Bull stuff.  But most importantly,  you are having fun with the big blocks.

[CJ154SG]

I would love to see a HTSS 550, Walt. My dad was given a smoked 2014 by a local arborist. Cylinder beyond recovery. Second-gen AT1A carb. Did a bunch of the IPL updates and a few of our own to get the heat out of the saw, seal it up properly and put on the latest OEM cylinder. (with 1184 on the crankcase flange side and the gasket on the cylinder flange side. Best 50cc saw I have ever run. 

He sold it to another local arborist (dyed-in-the-wool Stihl guy if there ever was one  ) and he hasn't managed to blow it up or otherwise kill it in over a year.

[Spike60]

OK, I'll bite.......

Just came inside. Been working on next year's kindling with my Jonsered 111S. 42" bar, .404 chain. Almost dangerous doing kindling whiping around a light package like that. So I drilled some holes in the end of the bar and bolted a couple of bricks to it to achieve the balance I prefer. No pain, no gain right? I wasn't cutting anything bigger than 2", but reach is real important to me. When you have reach, everything is easy. Got a little carried away and my neighbor Curt walked over and asked why I was trimming his trees. Told him it was the reach. I still have a couple .325 small mount saws; they make great pencil sharpeners. But when ya wanna cut wood, ya need a real saw. Sometimes, just cause I like to challenge myself, I like to cut firewood with a 2 man saw from the 1950's.  Without the 2nd man. Talk about a workout for the shoulder muscles! 

Should I be doing stuff like this at my age? Probably not. But the gal in physical therapy is pretty cute. Problem is,even her mother is probably too young for me. Heading out to the shop and see if I can make any of my saws heavier and more fun to work with. Maybe I'll build one with the engine from the garden tractor. 

[Old Greenhorn]

Boy, when you bite, you really chomp down!
 Seriously, I have often felt that it is a dang shame that sarcasm is not considered a marketable (saleable) skill. There are many here that could take in a mint with their skills. A brilliant little piece of "making one's point". I guess you prefer lighter saws then Bob, did I read that right?

[DHansen]

That was hilarious 😂. 

[CJ154SG]

OK, I'll bite.......

Just came inside. Been working on next year's kindling with my Jonsered 111S. 42" bar, .404 chain. Almost dangerous doing kindling whiping around a light package like that. So I drilled some holes in the end of the bar and bolted a couple of bricks to it to achieve the balance I prefer. No pain, no gain right? I wasn't cutting anything bigger than 2", but reach is real important to me. When you have reach, everything is easy. Got a little carried away and my neighbor Curt walked over and asked why I was trimming his trees. Told him it was the reach. I still have a couple .325 small mount saws; they make great pencil sharpeners. But when ya wanna cut wood, ya need a real saw. Sometimes, just cause I like to challenge myself, I like to cut firewood with a 2 man saw from the 1950's.  Without the 2nd man. Talk about a workout for the shoulder muscles!

Should I be doing stuff like this at my age? Probably not. But the gal in physical therapy is pretty cute. Problem is,even her mother is probably too young for me. Heading out to the shop and see if I can make any of my saws heavier and more fun to work with. Maybe I'll build one with the engine from the garden tractor.

Classic! 

A bit more seriously: Walt, you can still handle a lot more saw now, than I can at a couple decades less and with all my original joints. I can't imagine trying to keep up with you 25 years ago. So you keep enjoying those saws while you can!

[Spike60]

My most used saw is a Jonsered 2153; 18".325 speed cut set up. Tweeked a bit, 8 pin rim. Plenty of power for me up to 12" wood. Fatigue never an issue, and I can always finish the job rather than have the job finish me.

(A 242xp at 15,500 rpm is another saw that's sure to put a grin on your face.)


Some of this silliness is a byproduct of the fascination with timed cuts; the main preoccupation of the ported saw crowd. (Which I have been guilty of myself). But the length of time you can work comfortably with a saw may be more significant than 1.5 seconds per cut in the real world. Can get get more work done safely if you can keep going comfortably. 

We diverge a bit here in part because Walt thinks like a logger and wants one decent size saw to cover most of what he'll run into. I think like an arborist and I want one of every size saw on the truck. And since many of us have a lot of different size saws, the ideal saw for any job is always near by. 

[weimedog]

for breaking down the tops into fire wood, its true a small saw would be fine, I like the reach as I don't move as well as I once did. Problem is it's all knarly hard maple and the like. Beach too as a weed tree. Often I end up noodling the blocks in half so I can break them with an ax. Big power is easier in that scenario. Also when felling where I don't move as well I often can reduce the times I have to pull the saw out and reposition with a 28 and even then sometimes the bar is too short. A younger version of me would move around the tree with a 20 or 24 . Chased the tree down and hopped out of the way when they bounced. Now.... Big face cut so I don't have to worry about the trim on that side, Bore cut thru and first cut to the hinge , then work back to a trigger. THEN stand up & clip and move. chasing a tree is stupid anymore, trying to cut to the hinge fast enough where it's thin & doesn't fiber pull. SO the longer bar , bigger saw ends up having me use less energy and I can work at a more relaxed pace vs. having to hustle around the back and get the hinge cut thin enough it won't pull. Actually this approach has added a few years/seasons for me.  

[Spike60]

Kind of moves us into a different courtroom there, but still a fun discussion. Nobody would dispute the big saws for the big trees logic. Same for noodling big firewood rounds to make them more manageable. I do that with 80+ cc saws myself; not a 50cc. 

It was the suggestion above that there's really no place on the truck for a saw of less than 60cc wearing a 24" bar, that i cant wrap my head around. I'd never want to be without a 50cc option on any of the jobs I  get involved with. Nice to have a saw or 2  like that within easy reach. You really can never be sure what you're going to run into on any given day. And the fact that most of us have these options suggests it's better to bring some along for the ride.

That ability to keep working, which has been echoed by several others over in  Tom's thread, can make the difference between a good day and a great day. Sometimes after running 2 or 3 tanks through larger saws, (and starting to feel it), it's nice to grab a smaller saw and run a tank through it and keep working. 

[DHansen]

As long as the chips are flying and your arms and back are holding up, grab your favorite and get to work.   It is cool when you get to pull out the big saws.  And it is fun to use stuff that is not as common. 

[CJ154SG]

Good points on the logger vs. arborist approaches, Bob. I tend to think in arborist terms most of the time, too, but I can also appreciate the logger side of the argument.

When I can only have one saw for the day (perish the thought), it's a 154/254 with a 20" narrow-kerf bar. Now a bit of context:

My Dad and I are firewooders in Central Alberta. Biggest trees we collect are dead-standing spruce or pine at 20" on the butt, with the majority being 10-16" on the butt. Our stove takes two 10" rounds comfortably, so anything bigger gets split or noodled. It's all softwood, so a 50-60cc saw is plenty adequate for felling. Almost all of these trees have the dwarf mistletoe parasite that causes them to produce massive clumps of small, gnarly branches, so limbing and breaking down these "tops", for lack of a better word, comprises probably 60% of our time and energy. It's only firewood, so a high (16-20") stump (trimmed down after to preserve the diffs in the truck ) puts the tree at waist level. A little 35-40cc pro saw with a 14-16" bar is the combo we have settled on for limbing and bucking to about 6"diameter. After that, the 50-60cc saws come back out, followed by a bigger saw if there is a fair bit of noodling required. 

I can run the 154/254 for 5 or 6 hours as a do-all saw, but I definitely feel it a lot more at the end of the day. Having the little saws for the small stuff makes a huge difference for me over the same period of time.

As Walt emphasizes often, approaches differ according to local circumstances and personal preferences 

[Old Greenhorn]

Well I think the short bar 50cc saw is THE perfect saw to cut out a pinched 90cc saw. Just sayin'.

[DHansen]

Walt, we may poke fun at the idea of running the big saws all the time.  But we're all jealous that not only do you have a Jonsered 930, but you get to use it.  Keep up the good work.

[Spike60]

CJ, love how the 254's are the larger saws on your job, with 40cc saws on hand for limbing duty. Curious as to what they are. 242 chassis? There's nothing quite like a 242/246 in some applications. And of course, limbing itself adds another dimension. Some days it's part of the job; other days there isn't any limb work to do. But if there is, I want a saw perfectly suited to the task. I'm not limbing with a 288. Again, I have every size saw imaginable. I like to find a spot in the rotation for as many as I can.



Everyone should understand that Walt and I hang on these debates as a way to push each other's buttons. I brought up a nice original 65 last Fall. Had an 18" bar on it. He picks it up and says, "This is a nice saw; want me to put a longer bar on it for you?" To share my response  here might not fall within the parameters of good taste, but suffice to say it was an overwhelmingly negative reaction to his suggestion.

[weimedog]

Yep, we go back and forth. TO the L65...why carry that weight & power with a 16 when you can pull those low tooth count chains with your 242? AND put a VersaCut 20 on that L65?  And the answer Bob has at the core is he's just looking for a reason to spread the saw time across the saws but not carry the weight   But sometimes its just fun to get the reaction... I call it "Cow Logic", what ever you even THINK about a direction, that cow is going the other way. Anyone who's dealt with those bovine beasts know what I mean....

[Spike60]

On the practical side, the old 65 balanced out nice with the 18. (Not 16). And I didn't run into anything there that required a longer bar. 4 more drive links, ( or however many you had in mind ), would only have added unnecessary weight. 

On the pragmatic side, this fits in our discussion  about getting work out of what we have. Selecting the ideal bar and chain combo for every saw would cost a fortune. There's usually something hanging on a nail that'll get the job done just fine. I've always favored 18's on a 372 or 630 for firewood. And I got a bunch of them. 

On the silly side, you always think in terms of how long a bar you can put on a saw; me, how short can I get away with. 
Arguing with myself, rather than you, I've often seemed to skip 20's on the large mount He-man saws, I favor of 22's for 2171, 576, 670 saws. (76DL). Little extra length with out a balance penalty. A 2171-22" with the taller/fatter 2172 handle is a perfectly balanced saw. At least by my more refined sense of balance. 

[CJ154SG]

I did have a 42, Bob, that is a wonderful saw. I put a 16" X-Cut with SP33G on it and it is an absolute scalpel. I passed in onto my buddy to start his teenage girls out on. Long story short, it became his limbing saw

I wanted even less weight, so I started with a Shindaiwa 360 (35.2cc and about 1 1/2 pounds less than the 42) about 6 or 7 years ago. Definitely not on a 42/242/246 power or rpm level, but still plenty enough (2.5hp & 13,500rpm), especially with 3/8" low-pro on a 14" bar. Got my Dad hooked on one a couple years later (he preferred a 16" bar). Which led to a Shinny 377 (37.7cc with 2mm more stroke than the 360; same HP and rpms, but called a "high-torque" engine by Shindaiwa). They came stock with 0.325, which I swapped out for the same 3/8" low-pro B&C combo. Still well over a pound lighter than the 42.

I still believe that the 42/242/246 is the best 40ish cc chassis ever built, but I have yet to find a sub-40cc chassis that bests the Shinnys. It is, admittedly, a very small niche that other companies basically just ceded to Shindaiwa. Parts availability through ECHO dealers is actually still decent, and the bearings and seals are off-the-shelf items (that is one thing I really appreciate about the Japanese manufacturers: they haven't caught the proprietary bearing and seal disease, so far at least).

I now have a couple 377s, and we just got my Dad one this spring (and I've corrupted him to 14" bars, now ). Still have yet to be disappointed by these little saws

[Spike60]

Are you talking pre-Echo merger on those Shinnys? I don't remember the model numbers that well. But I do remember them filling that market niche pretty well. They captured a lot of the 242 pro business. Just as well built; little more friendly price. No manufacturer can engineer a gravity proof saw, so for accident prone arborists.....

This was also in the pre-plastic saw era. Most small saws these days went the plastic route. Husky 543, a Red Max design, being an exception. Stihl 241 was also apparently a home run, but guys say you can't find them.

Shindaiwa 488 was a fairly popular 3 cuber. Beyond that, the last good pure Shindaiwa was the big 577, 777? Don't remember that model either. Big saw, big air cleaner.


The saw world as it was back in the days of choices. Kind of miss it.

[CJ154SG]

Right you are, Bob. 360 was introduced in 1988, 488 in 1989, 377 & 757 in 1991, 577 in late-1993. P-suffix variants of the 488, 577, and 757 had the big air filter. All of them at their best as pre-EPA (pre-1997) models, especially the small saws, as Shinny adopted limited low-speed screws and fixed high-speeds on the carb that reduced power by 20%.

The thing that I most appreciate about the 360 & 377 is that there were no corners cut, they are simply miniature pro saws, with build quality equal to or even better than the best Euro saws of the era.

I also have a 577 (modernized version of the previous mag-tanked 575) and love it as well. Basically equivalent to a Husky 61. Rental places loved them up here, as they were capable of taking a LOT of abuse (mine is an ex-rental that I put a piston and rings in, along with an exciter coil; see below).

488s are rare in Western Canada, but were quite popular in Quebec and the Maritimes, where Shinny had its biggest presence in the country. So I am always on the lookout for one, as they are a great saw as well.

757s are very rare here. Closest I've come to one was a blown-up, picked-over parts saw that we got in a box of scraps. It did still have a good exciter coil, though, which replaced the toasted one on my 577 that made it run backwards.

Probably won't be able to resist that one, either, should it come across my path.

Shindaiwa had one more line of EPA2-era saws in the early-2000s that were still in-house designs (285s, 352s were evolutions of the 300s and 360; 446s, 452s, and 502s were all-new 45-50cc saws) with pro-level build, but no major improvement in AV, and, obviously, very lean carbs (at least fully adjustable with a splined driver on the 446s - 502s).

As for the new, Interchangeable-with-ECHO models, the only one to tempt me is, of course, the one NOT available in North America: the 431sx (aka ECHO CS-4310SX), which (in the spirit of Shindaiwa) is basically a downscaled 43cc version of the 73.5cc CS-7310SX. 3hp in a 9.5 lbs PHO package with spring AV, centrifugal air cleaning, and the other modern niceties. Would that I could 

[Spike60]

Wow. Do I need to mail a tuition check for that post? That was great. 

There were a couple of local dealers for them a while back. Almost never saw one wander into the store. Wouldn't have gotten involved in much more than a sharpening. Had no way to get parts. Not even sure who the distributor was back then.

One of those aforementioned dealers had Mac and Homelite along with Shindaiwa. Maybe Olympyk? Became a Husky dealer and his saw biz exploded. Always told me that unless you had Husky or Stihl, you really aren't in the saw business. 

And that, sadly, is why all the choice I mentioned in the earlier post is gone. 

[CJ154SG]

Wow. Do I need to mail a tuition check for that post? That was great.

There were a couple of local dealers for them a while back. Almost never saw one wander into the store. Wouldn't have gotten involved in much more than a sharpening. Had no way to get parts. Not even sure who the distributor was back then.

One of those aforementioned dealers had Mac and Homelite along with Shindaiwa. Maybe Olympyk? Became a Husky dealer and his saw biz exploded. Always told me that unless you had Husky or Stihl, you really aren't in the saw business.

And that, sadly, is why all the choice I mentioned in the earlier post is gone.

I am still way behind on my tuition to all of your Saw Colleges, Bob, so this one's on the house

Shinny was better known among landscapers for their trimmers and blowers than their saws. They really tried for a big push in saws in North America from the early-80's to early-'90s, but just couldn't match the scale of the big boys, although they were successful at steadily growing their overall business here.

The biggest problem was exactly as you described with the dealer that carried the variety of smaller brands: you had American brands that were in their decline phase, along with lesser-known, but high-quality foreign brands that couldn't match Elux' or Stihl's marketing budgets.

Not for lack of trying, in Shinny's case, at least. One of my favorite marketing documents from the early-'90s is a Shindaiwa pamphlet comparing the plastic small Stihls (021, 023, 025) to the 360 & 377. No contest in the real world. But, conversely, no contest in the marketing world, either

Shindaiwa was the proverbial "Mom & Pop" type of brand at a time when such operations were beginning their major decline. For a brand that sold their first gas saw in 1977, product of a collaboration with Komatsu Zenoah (aka RedMax), their first 20 years over here were pretty remarkable as they produced some of the finest examples of horizontal-cylinder saws in that first decade, and by the early-'90s had caught right up to Husky and Stihl in vertical-cylinder technology. If they had managed to get started over here even a decade earlier, things might have turned out differently.

As it was, they gave ECHO (the larger company by far) fits for over 25 years, as that was whom they viewed as their main competition. The outcome was, unfortunately, eerily similar to what happened with another orange brand and red brand in the late-'70s when Electrolux first grabbed Husky and made them their premier brand, while swallowing their closest competitors, Jonsered and Partner, to further reduce competition and raid the other two of their engineering departments. All of which has been part of the process of homogenization of the chainsaw over the last 40 years.

It is sad that all we are now left with are 3 basic manufacturers of pro gas saws, leaving aside all of the clone saws, which obviously bring nothing new to the table.

At least we still can enjoy these vintage saws for the time being, with all of their individual quirks and features that endear them to us