Catastrophic Failure, Now with pictures!!

Kevin_H. · June 23, 2005, 10:21:04 PM

Man O Man when it rains it pours... Here I was just sawing along, not bothering anybody, and the WM lost power...It ran fine at idle but not enough power to saw with...

Well we found one cylinder had no compression, :'( We took the head off and found the valve in two pcs, the valve seat was loose and the head was cracked...

looks like I will be running to indy tomorrow for a new motor...

So how was everyone else's day?

Well I finally got some pics to up load.

We still dont know where this pc of valve is!!, looking under the valve you would also see the valve seat is...Well...unseated, for lack of a better term.

If ya look real close at the pic above, you can see the small crack, it is a little better to see on the optimized pic.

Tom · June 23, 2005, 10:25:21 PM

Why can't you just replace the parts?

We've been training the gallery to ignore your photo efforts, Kevin. It's a conspiracy. :D :D :D

Jeff · June 23, 2005, 10:26:40 PM

I'm guessing Kevin has a gateway computer. Kevin, my engine is running poorly as well but I think, at least I hope, my problem is just a bad coil.

OLD_ JD · June 23, 2005, 10:36:55 PM

kevin i sure know ure feeling about ure day :(..yesterday i take my procesor engine at part in find out my bering lifter are done :'(...and crank saft as to be rebuilt.... :'( :'(...yesterday was a very bad day....hope tomoroy will be better 4 u and I ;)

Kevin_H. · June 23, 2005, 10:42:41 PM

It looks like replacing the cracked head would mean replacing the entire block, the motor has 2500 hrs on it and I think by the time I did all that I would be farther ahead just putting a new motor on and going another 7 years.

Yes jeff I have a gateway, but calling it a computer is giving it way too much credit :D

Jeff I would pick ya up a new coil tomorrow, but it would be august before ya got it. :D

JD I feel your pain, I'm still trying to figure out if I am going to make to indy tomorrow, might have to wait a few days...

Kirk_Allen · June 23, 2005, 11:42:31 PM

I suppose your going to upgrade to the FI 28 hp Kohler?

If you got time feel free to stop by. I will be hear all day and Im only a few miles north of 70.

Kevin_H. · June 24, 2005, 07:27:07 AM

kirk, I asked about the 28 hp, but they said I could only get that on a new mill, the replacement motor is the 25hp. Other than the return fuel line I dont know what the difference would be...

KILROY · June 24, 2005, 12:30:16 PM

Kevin,
Sorry to hear about your motor problems. Try to locate a short block. If time is not a factor. I did that once. Took about half a day to change parts over. It will run like a new motor.

Jeff, if your onan is running bad clean the carburetor. It is easy to do. If the coil goes bad one or both cylinders quit firing.

Good luck guys.

VA-Sawyer · June 24, 2005, 12:36:09 PM

Kevin,

Talk to the engine expert at WM. I'm not sure what his name was, but that is his main job at WM. He told me I could get the Fuel Injected engine for my 87 mill. I would have to change the fuel tank, add an electric pump and cut a bit of metal out of my engine mount. I would also have to make a mount for the computer. He said he could supply me with all the needed parts for about $2200 US. He said that the FI engine cut more like the old 35 HP they used to offer. It also used a lot less fuel for the amount of wood produced. For the difference in money, it was a smarter move than the 25 HP Kohler.
Rick Montel aka VA-Sawyer

Kevin_H. · June 24, 2005, 12:42:14 PM

Hey rick, That sounds like the way to go...Did you install the 28FI on your 87'?

I am always up for more power, Looks like I need to call WM back!!

SwampDonkey · June 24, 2005, 01:17:50 PM

Kevin, Well that's a bum deal to end the week with. >:( I'de mention getting a Honda, but don't know what's available and it's probably not WM's recommendation, so I'll keep still.

;D

Kirk_Allen · June 24, 2005, 01:19:58 PM

I know when I talked to them at the shootout they said I could upgrade to the 28 hp FI with no problem on my 2000 LT40

Buzz-sawyer · June 24, 2005, 01:31:09 PM

A dumb question,.......but are you guys THAT loyal that you will drive hundreds of miles in a day to get a replacement motor? Cant you just order a Briggs or Koler motor just about anywhere and have it overnighted?....Or is it a LOT cheaper at woodmizer?

SwampDonkey · June 24, 2005, 01:40:48 PM

Actually, it depends on how good those WM reps are. If I was real pleased, I'de probably go the extra mile to patronize them. I still would be curious with Honda's offerings though. ;)

Kevin_H. · June 24, 2005, 01:55:16 PM

Buzz for me it is more of a bolt up question, from what I understand some of these motors are made just for WM, The last thing I want to do is buy off the shelf, and have to do a bunch of mods just to make it work.

When we started working out the shipping prices, it is cheaper for me to drive and get the motor than to have it shipped.

VA-Sawyer · June 24, 2005, 02:04:32 PM

Kevin,
No, I haven't made the change yet. Last fall my Onan 24 was starting sound bad. It has a little over 3000 hours on it and as I recently bought the mill, I had no idea how often the previous owner(s) changed the oil and filters. I have since installed an oil pressure guage and rebuilt the cooling shrouds. I also adjusted the valves and replaced the exhaust system. It is running much better now and I'm planning on keeping it as long as it is running this well. When this engine does die, I plan on replacing it with the 28 FI unless something better comes along.

In response to the Honda suggestion... It would take some real adapting to make everything fit well. I saw a Honda 24 hp mounted on a '93 LT40HD, it wasn't a very pretty conversion. I also believe that at present a 24 hp is the largest you can get from them. Briggs has recently introduced a new series of larger engines ( in the 30 - 35 hp range I think) , but WM doesn't seem to be doing anything with them yet. The nice thing about buying the engine from WM is that you can get the support items from them as well. Things like engine mounts,pulleys,belts etc, have all been engineered to work as a package by them. I was suprised that it was as cheap to get the right engine from WM as it was to order something unknown from a place like Northern.
VA-Sawyer

EDIT ... Kevin posted while I was typing but we seem to agree about keeping the change over as simple as possible. It will take longer to convert to the 28FI compared to the 25 Kohler, but I think either kit from WM would be easier than doing it with other engines/parts. VA

Kevin_H. · June 24, 2005, 02:19:11 PM

Well the 28hp FI is ordered and should be ready for me to pick up on tuesday, I will try to snap some pics, seeing as the Gateway is not playing nice with the kodak, I dont know if it will do any good. :D

VA-Sawyer · June 24, 2005, 02:22:46 PM

One additional thing to say about engine upgrades. On the older mills (pre '92 I think) they had a single #40 chain for raising the head. WM recomends upgrading this with a kit that adds a second #40 chain beside the origional one, and adding a dual sprocket to the gearbox. On the later mills they used an intergrated dual#50 chain which is much stronger. I have the 2 #40 chains and replaced them with new ones from WM when I added the debarker. ( required due to the extra weight of the debarker) When I talked to my engineer friend at WM about going to a bigger engine, he suggested I try to limit the weight of the new engine to 150 lbs or less. He said I could have problems with the up/down system if I got much heavier than that. I already had the head fall once because the output shaft on the right angle gearbox broke. That scared me enough that I put a post in the SAFETY section about it. Just saying,' think about the weight change when upgrading'.
VA-Sawyer

VA-Sawyer · June 24, 2005, 02:25:54 PM

Kevin,
Great to hear that. I'm real interested in hearing your opinion about how much faster it saws and the fuel consumption. I hope it is the improvement that WM said it would be.
VA-Sawyer

Kirk_Allen · June 24, 2005, 11:56:28 PM

Keep us posted on the upgrade. I know when my engine gives up the ghost the plan is to go with the new FI motor.

I wont be around Tuesday so I guess we will see you at the piggy roast. I will be down in AR next week.

Kevin_H. · June 25, 2005, 10:13:46 AM

Hopefully there wont be to many mods, I will try to snap some pics of anything we have to do...

kirk once we are up and going feel free to stop by, I will let ya run the mill for the day, you know, so you can figure out if'n ya like the bigger motor.

Hey it work for tom sawyer....

OLD_ JD · June 27, 2005, 05:34:20 PM

i just send my engine to be re-built :(...shoud be ready in 10 day's...$2,500. less in my pocket :'(...rolfffff

KILROY · June 28, 2005, 07:56:43 AM

Kevin,
After looking at your pictures. Your situation with that engine is not that unusual or serious. If the crack is not sucking air or losing compression, then it will not effect the performance of the engine. It can be welded if necessary.
All you have is a flame cut exhaust valve. There is no piece of the valve to find. Everyone that runs one of these engines long enough will experience this. The last new valve I bought cost $35.00. A new head gasket is around $5.00. So less than $50 that engine can be put back into service. If that is the first repair you have made to that engine, then it has a lot of hours left in it.

Kevin_H. · June 28, 2005, 11:16:59 PM

Well we got home with the new motor and have in bolted in place, hopefully tomorrow we will be able to button up the elec. and fuel and fire it up.

So far the only problem we have had is that the new mounting brackets for the engine were not tapped all the way through. we finished the tap without a problem...

time for sleep...

hey kilroy, everyone I talked to said that since the crack went from the valve seat out that I will have a hard time keeping a new valve seat in...