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Author Topic: I know you don't want to hear this, but....  (Read 6679 times)

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Offline DouginUtah

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I know you don't want to hear this, but....
« on: July 06, 2005, 12:40:09 PM »
July 6, 2005 is an important day in the future of energy.

First, President Bush has acknowledged that greenhouse gases are contributing to global warming:

"Listen, I recognize the surface of the Earth is warmer, and that an increase in greenhouse gases caused by humans is contributing to the problem."

"Listen, the United States for national security reasons and economic security needs to diversify away from fossil fuels. So we put out a strategy to do just that. I can't wait to share it with our G8 friends," he told reporters in Denmark.

This is a first step toward the recognition of peak oil.

Second, Chevron/Texaco has put up a web site which is the beginning of acknowledging peak oil--probably a CYA maneuver at this time. It has a nice touch--a counter that shows how fast oil and gas are being consummed--1,480 barrels per second.

http://www.willyoujoinus.com/

Incidently, the Energy Facts that I posted earlier as a Word Document is now on my web site.

http://www.xmission.com/~sherwin/energyfacts.html

-Doug

-Doug
When you hang around with good people, good things happen. -Darrell Waltrip

There is no need to say 'unleaded regular gas'. It's all unleaded. Just say 'regular gas'. It's not the 70s anymore. (At least that's what my wife tells me.)

---

Offline crtreedude

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Re: I know you don't want to hear this, but....
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2005, 12:56:26 PM »
This is a true sign of the end of the world - when GW Bush and the oil companies admit that there is a problem.  :D

Not really a laughing matter - but at least they are starting to admit it.

So, how did I end up here anyway?

Offline Texas Ranger

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Re: I know you don't want to hear this, but....
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2005, 01:12:03 PM »
The fact remains that no one knows how much man is contributing.  I agree we are, but also know that we have been warming for the last 18 - 30,000 years. 
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

Offline Fla._Deadheader

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Re: I know you don't want to hear this, but....
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2005, 01:13:54 PM »

  That was caused from all the Dinosour gas emissions.   ;D ;D ;D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Offline Tom

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Re: I know you don't want to hear this, but....
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2005, 01:18:25 PM »
what do we turn off first, the automobiles, the house heat or the electric generating companies?

Giving it considerable thought I think that preference should be given to the farmers, They probably produce the most with the least energy expenditure and it is mostly something to eat.  Turn off the cities like you do with the light switch when you leave the room. :)
extinct

Offline Patty

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Re: I know you don't want to hear this, but....
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2005, 01:27:57 PM »
This is an article in today's Wall Street journal, talking about what Doug is saying:     URL for this article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB112060655997977924,00.html


I get the impression that the general attitude is "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" , especially if it is good for the bottom line.
Women are Angels.
And when someone breaks our wings....
We simply continue to fly ........
on a broomstick.....
We are flexible like that.

Offline crtreedude

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Re: I know you don't want to hear this, but....
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2005, 01:36:15 PM »
Wouldn't it help considerably if you could stop the politicians from talking? Surely this would fix the problem?

So, how did I end up here anyway?

Offline DouginUtah

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Re: I know you don't want to hear this, but....
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2005, 05:18:36 PM »
Tom, if we don't give preference to the farmers we are really going to regret it. I'm holding back on the "nitty-gritty" of this but suffice it to say I am both envious and respectful of anyone who is farming. I just wish I had a few acres--in fact I am looking. [Bitternut, please call.  ;D That would be like going home. My wife, however, is more inclined toward Washington state.]

CR, the politicians are a big part of the problem, but, sorry to say, there is no fix for the problem. We are going to return to an agricultural society--if we are lucky. In Costa Rica you will be better off than we will because you won't have the numbers of people who have been living high on the hog who now become angry and desperate. If US Americans think we have a gang problem now, imagine a million people in New York City who don't have a job. The suburbs will be in peril.

I thought of asking Ron to put up a poll asking if you and your family were starving would you break the law to get food for them, but decided that was too macabre.

Global warming is not the least bit important--it is peak oil and the subsequent decline.

For those of you who think I am a bit "over the top"--give it about three more years and see how things are going.

-Doug
-Doug
When you hang around with good people, good things happen. -Darrell Waltrip

There is no need to say 'unleaded regular gas'. It's all unleaded. Just say 'regular gas'. It's not the 70s anymore. (At least that's what my wife tells me.)

---

Offline crtreedude

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Re: I know you don't want to hear this, but....
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2005, 05:47:46 PM »
I suspect that people are going to find things highly uncomfortable. In theory, one calorie of energy produces one calorie of food - if you do better than that, the population can increase, if you do worse, it decreases. This is how the animal kingdom functions.

Because of fossil fuels, we have been able to produce 10 calories of food for one calorie of human energy - the rest has been supplemented with fossil fuels for the most part.

The human population is too large to support itself on land as farmers. Remember, fertilizer often is made from oil (if I remember correctly) Without alot of the population leaving the planet, it won't work.

The comment about the politicians was a smartalec remark - true, it would help, but not enough.

I started do reforestation about 3 years ago because I actually believed this.  Resources (not just oil) are going to get scarcer and scarcer and we are doing enough to replace them.

There are things that can be done that will help. Just a couple:

1. Stop requiring people who work at a desk to travel in to work. With the internet and VPN there really is no reason to make people use gas driving in to the office - they can work at home. This would make a huge difference. This can be accomplished by creating a tax to penalize companies who have employees show up at work.  Use some of this money for the second idea.

2. Create paths for bikes for commuting. For a few years while I lived in NJ I would have cheerfully rode a bike to work everyday - but it was a deathwish to try. I probably would have gotten to work faster too. Lord knows people in the USA could use the excercise. The bikes of today are amazingly good - I used to cruise at about 20 miles an hour, and it is a mountain bike.

3. Live in a climate that is the same year round - and comfortable... Might be hard for you guys... I don't have heating or cooling bills. I don't even have a furnace or an airconditioner. I do have some fans but they are powered by Hydro-electric here.

4. Never use fossil fuels to produce electricity - use anything else that is renewable. Even nuclear energy would be preferable.

Act like oil is a scarce resource that is finite - because that is the truth. Yes, there are millions of barrels available, but the rate it is being consumed is always increasing.


So, how did I end up here anyway?

Offline Arthur

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Re: I know you don't want to hear this, but....
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2005, 06:12:19 PM »
crtreedude

by what you say it appears you have spent time in western europe.  Most cities have bike paths.  the public transport system is overloaded and many companies have workers using VPN from home.  They have been doing this for decades.

You will find that in Europe the average km per head is probably lessthan 10% of that in the US.  Here in Australia we probably have the highest km per head due to the fact  that the population is so small and the infastructure is almost non-exsistant.

On oil lasting you will find that most of he island nations in the South Pacific are converting to use palm oil.  The US nolonger buys the oil for napalm so they have found an alternate use for it.  This also mean they dont need to import the oil to run their vehicles.

Inn Europe they are doing the same with vegetable oils grown by the farmers.  Gives the farmers a guarenteed income.

Just started with our first veg oil processing plant here in australia.  just shows that we can use alternate for fossil fuels.

arthur

Offline Ernie

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Re: I know you don't want to hear this, but....
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2005, 06:15:08 PM »
CRtreedude got it in one, great solutions but unfortunately will the decision makers listen, I think not.

Too many vested interests with deep pockets and loud voices who obviously have no grandchildren just shareholders with a desire for deep pockets to fill.

Who is most satisfied, the man with 10 kids or the man with 10 million dollars?

The man with 10 kids has enough :)
A very wise man once told me . Grand children are great, we should have had them first

Offline Engineer

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Re: I know you don't want to hear this, but....
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2005, 06:21:17 PM »
Ernie -

I would like to have both.   :D  but only the first if I get the second one too. 

It is definitely the citiy population, and even suburbia, who are using all of this world's resources.    Even a little bit helps, like using mass transit, or eating food from an organic farmer, but it is not enough.  I am moving further away from the beaten path, into a very-highly-energy efficient house, with a home office, and heating with wood.  I am going to invite the efficiency/green building people to test my house and I bet it will rank in the top ten in the State.   I realize that there have been plenty of oil molecules sacrificed to build the place, and that my wife and I are not driving hybrid cars, for example, but we will also not be burning 1000 gallons of fuel oil for heating our home anymore.   Maybe 15 gallons of gas for the chainsaw.

Next step is to clear enough land to put in the garden and root cellar.

Offline rebocardo

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Re: I know you don't want to hear this, but....
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2005, 06:24:45 PM »
re:green house gas

I just wonder who we are going to blame when the magnetic poles switch.
 

Offline crtreedude

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Re: I know you don't want to hear this, but....
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2005, 07:01:53 PM »
Actually, I have never been to Europe, but I would like to visit someday. It just seemed obvious that so many people commute to work when they could work at home just as easy. I think usually it is the ego of the bosses that cause it.

Besides working for Finca Leola S.A. my company, I actually develop software too for companies in NJ and Washington D.C. from my office here in Costa Rica. The commute would be a little long I fear...

I work about 4 days a week in Software, 3 days (and 2 hours each morning) for my company. I have other people working for me full-time on the farms but I am stuck in the office.

So, how did I end up here anyway?

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: I know you don't want to hear this, but....
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2005, 08:54:28 PM »
There's a simple solution to the whole energy problem.  It lies in the consumer.  When the consumer decides that they won't ir can't pay for something, then things will change.

Government isn't the answer, at least, not the ones I've seen lately.  The only way they can manipulate anything is to tax it or subsidize it.  Taxing it only drives it underground. 

Why do we need 3000 SF houses?  Why do we need lights that shine all night long?  Why do we need 4x4 SUV when we live in town?  Because the consumer demands it.  Change the consumption and you change the equation. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline Steve

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Re: I know you don't want to hear this, but....
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2005, 09:32:11 PM »
Right on!
Amen!
Couldn't agree more!

There is something about our American culture that I can't really define. A certain attitude.
Something has to change.
Steve
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www.curlykoa.com

Offline crtreedude

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Re: I know you don't want to hear this, but....
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2005, 10:00:07 PM »
3000 square feet house, man, that is a small one! When I was in NJ many of the homes were starting around 3,500 square feet and up.

Huge SUVs (and NJ isn't exactly the snow capital of the world).

It is just amazing the waste - and for what?

So, how did I end up here anyway?

Offline beenthere

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Re: I know you don't want to hear this, but....
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2005, 10:19:36 PM »
Maybe because 'they can'. They have the money, or can get it easily, and they want to spend it on something. No more land being 'made' so that is an investment. Also, that big house puts people to work, and the tax man gets paid many ways.

I dont like it, but as long as they can, they will (I think).   :o ::)
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Offline DanG

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Re: I know you don't want to hear this, but....
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2005, 10:30:59 PM »
So, why would we not want to hear it? ???  To those of us who have bothered to listen, it is old news.  GWB has been not only acknowledging the problems with the environment for many years, he's been actively trying to do something about it.  I remember appeals to Congress in EVERY State of the Union address, asking them to appropriate funds to further more economical cars, reduce greenhouse gasses, restore our independence in the energy market, etc.

What is truly remarkable, is that the "News" media is finally acknowledging that he is saying those things.  

Y'all really need to get off the boob tube and listen to what is really going on in the world.  Every word that is uttered by the folks that can really make a difference is available on the Internet.  The media folks all have a political ax to grind, and will not give you the facts without a slant of some sort.  Listen to what The Man has been saying for years, and draw your conclusions from that.

Now, lest that little tirade be seen as an attack on someone, please realize that we all have the same goal here.  It's just that we have  different ideas on what it takes to get there.  Nothing is gained by merely repeating what the political hacks try to tell us as they desperately grab for power.  If ya wanta know what the Congress is doing, consult the Congressional Record.  If you want to know the true scoop on the Judiciary, go to www.supremecourtus.gov  and find out.  If you want to know what the Pres. says, I'm sure the White House has a website that will tell you.  If you just want something to bicker about, the news possums will give ya plenty of that.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Offline Paul_H

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Re: I know you don't want to hear this, but....
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2005, 11:18:26 PM »
Buzz,

Do you want to take the right to complain away from us?  :P
eg  tregar  meste  på  Tulla, for  ho  var  krulla  i  ulla.


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