Getting started

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Sorry 'bout that, Dan.  For some reason, I thought you owned a swinger ???  Yes, I definitely need to know which model Duke has and go from there.

While I'm here, I might as well inquire about your Mobile Dimension.  What are the up- and down-sides of that type?  From what I've seen -- in video form -- it looks like a monster of a circle saw  It also looks like it would eat the General Sherman Sequoia if it had to.  With a name like that, I'd love to see it too :D

B in the BE  

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Thanks again, Haytrader.

I'll give Duke a call when I get a chance.  Right now, I'm working on my Cummins RAM and typing in between trips to the garage

Bill

[twostroke_blood]

Welcome to the Forum B.   If I had to do it again? :-\??? First of all I can only speak for my mill, and I'd say 30" logs have no business on a 36" band mill  ;D. The biggest problem I have is turning the danged things. I think 24" dia. is about the max for me, and even that is a stretch when your cutting tweenty footers like i am currently doing. I just finished cutting 200 2x6x20's, and they are a bear to handle. A couple of thoughts. 23 horse power is under powered for the big stuff. I wouldnt purchase a Mill again without a hydrolic log lifter. ditto on turner, and most of all, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.
Here's an example of a log that had no business being on my mill.
If I had a circle Mill like these fella's are talking about, I would have tackled this beautiful Maple

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Great post, twostroke!  It's hard to tell, but is that a Cook's mill in the photo?  Are you stating that 30" OD is simply too big for a 36" mill -- realistically speaking -- or are you saying that they're too big for the engine on your particular mill?

I was also wondering whether or not you are enjoying your work?  On the other hand, with a motto like "I love the smell of Twostroke in the morning," you must be liking life :D  By the way, that's a syruppy looking Maple you photographed there.  It must have broken you to pass that thing up!

Bill
 

[DanG]

Hey Bill!  When ya get through workin on that Dodge, road test it on over here and gimme a hand wit dis Ford diesel that's settin in my yard, eh? ;D :D

Yeah, the Sherman could be done on an MD. ;D  I'd want to burn the wood, though. :D :D :D  Actually, the MD would be on the tree, instead of the tree being on the mill.  The MD can be configured in several ways, to accomodate any size log.  Mine is trailer mounted, so it is limited by the size of the trailer.  The way it sits, I could, theoretically, handle a log up to 48"x24'.  No way I'd want to tackle one that big, though.  I could take it off the trailer and make a few adjustments, and take on whatever you could bring to it.

IMO, the biggest advantage is ease of operation, especially for a beginning sawyer.  The simplicity lets you concentrate on the log, rather than operating the saw.

The biggest limitation is in the size boards you can cut.  Here again, there are mods that vary that factor.  Mine is limited to a bit over 4" on the horizontal cut, so the biggest board I can make is a 4x12.  I'm thinking of buying a large edger blade from another forum member, that would allow me to cut 8"+ on the horizontal, but I'd have to give up the upper edger.  I'm thinking it would be worth it to increase my flexibility.  For instance, if I'm sawing a customer's log, and he wants 2x6 or 2x8s, and I get down to where I have less than 6 or 8 inches of depth left in the log, I'm stuck making 2x4s instead of what he wants.  That ain't good for business.

Hey, Randy!  I think I just talked myself into buying that blade!!  :D :D :D

Another advantage is the ease of "one-man" operation.  I just park the Hootiemobile(forklift) behind the operator's position, then I can stand there like a gentleman : and let the mill do the work.  The board return will slide the boards straight onto the forks with just a little guidance from me.

Some say the kerf is a big issue.  I don't see it that way because it is so easy to recover that last bit of wood in the slabs.  If there isn't enough there to make a 1x4, I can make stickers or tomato stakes faster than you can believe.

If it sounds like I'm a fan of this type of mill, I am.  But I'm not a fan just because I have one, I have one because I like'em!

[twostroke_blood]

Im saying that 30" logs are too big for 36" band mills. I'm sure some will dissagree with me and thats fine. Its not so much that the motor wont handle it. For example im sure an LT-70 Woodmizer with a 62 H.P diesel motor wouldnt have any problem buzzing through the log in my picture. What im saying is that logs of that size are simply to hard to manipulate and handle. If I knew I were going to handle alot of big stuff, I would give the circle mills a look. That being said however, I love band Mills, Im happy with mine for the most part. Its a Hud-son Farm Boss 36H . My dream mill is The W.M LT-70. ;D . One other thing I would do differently is go and seek out owners of various different types of mills and watch them operate. That shouldnt be to hard with this bunch of great guys and ladies. I know I'd love to help someone else with their decision.

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

You are helping, twostroke!  Practically every word I've read here is one I'm learning   By the way, you're right!  There's nothing like seeing the mills passing through those logs... 

Shoot, Dan, if I were a little closer, I'd give that (cough) Ferd a try   Seriously, I've been up and down the pike with my Cummins.  In fact, you'd of probably loved watchin' my suburbian injection pump change last year.  The neighbors were crowdin' around like I was Emeril Lagasse himself :D  So, Dan, if YOU had to start over, you'd go with the MDS?

I don't know about you fellers, but I think the free exchange of thoughts that forums like this foster is one of the best things goin' these days... ;)

B in the BE       

[brdmkr]

B

I have not cut the first board with my mill, but it sounds like you and I have similar interests and starting equipment.  Early on, I decided that a swing blade would be my best bet.  I don't have any heavy equipment and mobility was a real issue.  I can take this mill to the log and set up over it.  I also have access to some really large trees.  Some would be a bit much for most of the band mills.  As someone on the forum told me earlier, if you are talking mobility and big logs, a swing mill should be high on the list.  I looked at the Peterson and Lucas mills and ultimately bought the Lucas.  Not that I think the Lucas is superior, but there were a number of factors that made me feel this was the best value for me.  Finally, this forum is great and that you can find out whatever you need to know about milling just by asking.  Good luck in your search for a mill.

[DanG]

B, I been dri...er....thinking about this very question, cause I knew it was comin'. :D :D

Here's the most honestest answer I can give ya;  If I was going to buy a new mill, and money was no object, :  I would have Lindsay Flett build the biggest, baddest Doublecut he could come up with.  I'd like to see a 52" main blade and at least a 30" edger blade, with a 5.9 Cummins perched on top of it.  It would have an 8' wide, four-poster head and 40' of track.  It would be mounted on a drop-deck lowboy, and have an offbearing conveyer that would pull out the back of the trailer like a drawer.  Oh, yeah, while I'm dreaming, an airconditioned operator's cab would be nice, too. ;D :D  One other thing, it would have a hydraulic clamping system, and log loaders mounted on BOTH sides.

Realistically, though,  the largest of D&L's production mills would do nicely.

If I was back to where I was 3 years ago, I'd do exactly what I did then.

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

DanG, that's quite a mill you designed   I especially love the CTD power plant you employed   Do you think D&L would be up for building the "Sherman Killer" model?  :D :D

Bill in the Vieux Carrie 

[customsawyer]

First things first DanG don't you go letting your aligator mouth overload your hummingbird backside. :D :D
Not trying to sing the praise of band mills but I cut alot of large 30" + logs up to 20' long and most of them are red oak so please don't think that band mills are not very good at handling these types of logs. I will produce around 4000-5000 bf of 4/4 sawn lumber per day on average. With that being said you should also know that I have extra support equipment like tractor with loader, backhoe with forks, edger, and 1-2 hired men helping to offbear the lumber so it is like has been said before the type of mill has to compliment your personal operation. I am currently looking to up grade to the LT 70 or possible the Timberking 2400 haven't desided as of yet but when I do it will be with another band mill. The people I am sawing for like those 18" wide boards I cut for them.

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Good post, Custom Sawyer.

What type of mill are you using now?  I noticed that you like the WMs & the TKs.  What do you think about the Bakers?  That Blue Streak looks like it would be a strong contender for your needs as well.

Bill in NOLA

[Shamus]

All right,
     geez Dan, you should be getting a commission from D&L. You'd think they were the greatest thing since sliced boards. Well, I'm here to tell ya you are on the mark! I have had a custom setup D&L mill for a year now, and have to say that it has been a real beauty. The combination of simple design and thoughtful labour savers is hard to beat. And they will build pretty much whatever you need. Lindsay has been real helpful with any troubleshooting also.
     I haven't run a bandmill, so I won't attempt to compare the two styles of mills. I just think I made the right choice. Plus they are made in my neck of the woods, which is a bonus (Oh Canada!).
     The only drawback I have had is my max cut size on the headsaw is 10" (edger 7" max), and have had a few requests for larger cuts. But that is no knock on D&L, I got exactyl what I asked for.




Saw ya later...

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Thanks, Shamus.  From the nice photo, it appears that you're running a diesel power plant, but, unfortunately, I can't make out a whole lot more.

Would you be kind enough to provide some details about your mill?  If I could learn more about the D&Ls, that would be fantastic!  They are definitely up there on the list...

BTW, what type and size of logs do you typically cut up with your D&L?  Have you done any timber framing type cuts?

Bill in NOLA   

[Shamus]

Sure B, no problem.

     Although I lusted after the biggest and baddest, I compromised a little and had one of the smaller mills upgraded and tweaked. I ended up with a Syncro Saw with a 30 hp Kubota diesel. It was designed to mill 16 footers and takes up to a 36" diameter wood sliver. 10"x7" cut capacity (railway tie option), with 1/4" kerf. Trailer package, hydraulic log rollers and lift posts. I went with the manual dogs, which work well. Board return, electric lift. It is currently back in their shop, I am having it lengthened (20'6" capacity), and a few other changes.
     I have put about 400 hours on the mill, and have mill over 80,000 bd ft., virtually all in 4/4 and 8/4 stock. Logs have been from 6" to 5 feet diameter (quartered, then gently set on mill with Hitachi 200 excavator). Average log size has probably been 20" or so. Mostly milled hemlock (framing, studs, floor joists), spruce (rafters), cedar (decking, siding), balsam fir (framing, studs), and Doug-fir (for something nice down the road). The finish on the boards is really good, and the lumber is very consistent. You get the occasional board that is thick on one end and thin on the other when cutting wood with lots of tension (ie hemlock), but I'm pretty sure that is par for the course. I haven't milled a whole lot of large stock, maybe did about 40 6"x6" and 100 4"x4". We needed some risers for stairs, so I squared some cants which we then broke down with an Alaskan mill.
     Problems I had with the mill mostly occurred in the first 100 hours of operation, and I'm man enough to admit that the majority were due to operator error, and a fairly steep learning curve. Considering my limited milling and mechanical experience, I would have to say thye mill has been a real trooper. And the mill is constructed mostly of off the shelf parts, so repairs are straightforward. Also, Lindsay has always gotten back to me toot sweet when I needed some troubleshooting.

Biggest complaint? What do I do with all this freaking sawdust?? ;)
I have been thinking lately too about adding a car jack and dog extensions to allow me to lift the small end of logs (especially cedar, lots of taper), so I can saw parallel to the pith.

Anything else? More pics perhaps?
OK!









     

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

No, Sir!  I don't think I could ask for a whole lot more than that (but I might think of something later) :D  Shamus, that's a really great post!  Thank you so much for the great effort.

BTW, Mr L. Flett just PM'd me. so he's already shown himself to be real go-getter, which I like.

Hitachi 200?  Alaskan Mill?  Do tell, what are those thingamajiggys?

Thanks again,
Bill in the Vieux Carrie 

[Ianab]

G'day, Ian...and Cheers right back at ya!

Yes, the swingers and the double cuts are moving up my list quickly.  They seem to be highly flexible -- especially for someone who DOESN"T currently own any log handling equipment of any kind...although I suppose I could make some ruts with my 4x4 if I had to :D

Seriously, though, the swingers do seem like a good starting point for someone with land that wants to utilize his timber resources.  The thing is...I'm also looking to slow my life down a bit, so I'm playing with the idea of starting a small scale business of some sort down the road. 

As I grew up on small farm -- in an area where everyone pitched in to build things -- I've had saw dust in my veins since childhood.  In short, I want to leave the rat race to the rats and get back to my roots.  Having said all that, I learned enough from the corporate world to be very cautious with business investments (even if they're presently potential investments). 

Anyway, the investment factor leaves a few GENERAL questions about ANY of the mills, not just the Peterson.  For example, does the finished product necessitate the purchase of additional equipment -- planers, edgers, expensive setters/sharpeners and the like.  The Wood-Mizer LT40 Hydraulic I saw rendered a product that was pretty close to finished.  The lumber I saw cut (Cypress 1x4s) was consistent in both finish and dimension.  Heck, the guy even ran a lumber gauge down the length of the boards to show me how "tight" they were, and he was right -- hard to argue with that.

However, it's also quite clear that there are downsides to the "big" mills.  The time and capital you must invest in blades, for instance, makes a huge investment even larger (on a daily basis).  It also occurred to me that there's another problem inherent to the bandies -- portability.  Yes, you can pull them to a tract of land anywhere, BUT can you always count on the serene pastures you see depicted in the demonstration videos.  No...I've got enough grey matter left to know that the grade of the site and the available space are serious considerations.  In short, some of the monsters I've seen in the videos would make dynamite small-scale stationary mills, but truly "portable"...I'm not convinced yet.

So those are my thoughts transferred to the keyboard.  There's nothing personal at all to any of my nonsense; I'm just trying my best to make a sound investment,  By the way, Ian, what is the finished quality of the dimensional lumber you've cut with your Petie?  Are the dimensions fairly consistent on your boards?  What do you do with the slab you end up with at the bottom of your logs?  Some of the video I've watched seems to end just before that part...and some of those things definitely look like they've still got lumber locked in there? 

Thanks very much for your post...and any thoughts or comments are much appreciated.

Bill in NOLA
       

Bill

The lumber produced by the swingblade / twins saws is generally accurate (if not it's usually operator error  : ) and is edged as you saw it of course. You can remove boards from the mill and straight onto the drying stack if you are set up right. A band saw should produce a smoother finish off the mill, but still needs to be planed anyway. Bandsaw is more likely to produce waves in boards, especially around knots or if the band is getting blunt. Like DanG said, if there is good timber in that bottom slab it can be pushed aside and resawn later. By loading it back onto the next part sawn log and sawing from the other side you can easily produce a full width live edge slab as well. If the log is nice and straight you can generally saw down to only 1" left in the bottom slab, sometimes it's not really worth the work to recover that last board. Also a log will often have a bad face thats full of knots or other defect, just load the log so thats face down so you only waste the rubbish wood anyway.

Blade maintainance is another plus for the swingblades. The sharpener is included in the mill cost, it's a little diamond wheel grinder that you use to touch up the teeth in place on the mill. Takes 5 mins. When the carbide teeth are worn down ( or broken by trying to saw embeded steel ) you get the saw retipped by a local saw doctor.

If you are going to get into selling timber, even as a part time thing you probably need to consider a drying kiln of some sort and maybe a planer in the future. Each step in processing the timber hopefully adds value to it. You can sell a tree for say $100, cut it into logs and haul it to the mill it's worth $200, saw it into $400 of green lumber, that becomes $600  of kiln dried wood, that you make into $800 of planed boards.

I agree about the portability, like Ernie I've hauled the mill into some rough spots with a quad bike as well. Friends farm where I often saw has 4 'flat' paddocks out of 30 so we are often sawing on the side of hills or on dirt tracks. 1/2 the logs I've sawn it would have been impractical to get a heavy trailer mounted mill to the site. And if you did it would probably still be there  :D

All the different mills have their place, and there are several ways of sawing a log. But for a first mill, large logs, limited support equipment I think a swinger is a good option for you. They are high enough production that you can run one commercially if you want, where a similar cost bandmill is a personal use sort of thing.

Hope that helps..

Ian

[Ernie]

Ian is perfectly correct as usual ;)

The only thing I would add is the finish from a circle saw is at least as good as a band mill as long as the blade is kept sharp(not a problem with the diamond grinder) and you don't try to push it too hard.

You also have the ability to quartersaw virtually the whole log.

The advantage of leaving the log on the ground obviates the necessity for lifting equipment with its associated extra costs and transport requirements.

I have found that accuracy is spot on for dimension and squareness.  Mt mill manufacturer claims dimensional accuracy of + or - 1mm but, with care, it's a lot better than that

Let us know your decision.

Anything else you want to know?

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

It's good to hear from you again, Ian and Ernie.

I'd be interested in knowing what you two use for log handling equipment.  It seems that that issue has raised its head here a few times now, so it's good ground to cover.

Have a great one,
Bill in NOLA

[Ianab]

Hi Bill

I use whatever I can get my hands on to move logs  :D

With a bit of luck I can just drop the tree and mill it where it lays.. but usually it's someplace awkward so,



or



Bulldozers, tractors and quad bikes have all been pushed into service at times, and as a last resort there is allways the trusty cant hook .

Cheers

Ian

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Really nice photos, Ian!

Is that a winch you're using on the front of that 4x4?  I imagine it is because that duty would be mighty tough on the drivetrain.  My 4x4  weighs almost 9000 lbs, with a Cummins Turbo Diesel, and I would't try that one.  :D

Good on ya,
Bill

[Dan_Shade]

a nice winch is always a big plus when handling logs :-)  I have a hydraulic milemarker, I like it very much, it just keeps on gettin' it.

welcome to the forum, you found a good one with lots of people willing to help!

[Tom Sawyer]

I can't say anything about any other mill, but as far as the WM's portability, I cut with an LT 40HD for 2.5 years (hope to have my own one day ;D), and I can't remember ever not being able to set up the mill at a customer's location.  WM's cantilevered head and rigid bed makes it easy to set up level on all kinds of terrain. 

I expected to hear more from the band guys on this one ;D ;D  Where are you all?  Where's Arky ??? ??? ???

[LSUNo1]

Bill in Vieux Carre, I'm Mitch in Metairie. A couple years ago I owned a manual mill from Cook Saw. Have since sold it, but I have a good friend in Crown Point with a Logmaster bandsaw mill that I am able to use anytime. If your interested I'll let you know next time we're sawing and you can come check it out first hand.

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Glad to know ya, Mitch!

That's a very kind offer -- I'd be glad to see the mill operate.  Please let me know the next time you plan on cutting up some logs.

Thanks again,
Bill