Bandmill questions

woodbeard · July 30, 2005, 10:23:01 AM

I am at a point where I am seriously considering switching from my swingblade mill to a bandmill. I have been going over and over all the manufacturers' stuff, and have a couple main questions. They are in regard to either a full hydraulic mill, or one with at least powered head travel, and some form of log handling/positioning.

Operator position: I initially felt like having the controls at one end made more sense than walking along with the sawhead. However, since I normally work alone, I am wondering if maybe it is better to be right there with the log. If you are pulling your own boards, what seems to be the best arrangement?

Toe boards: These are something I have decided are a must. Non-hydraulic ones would be fine, but from what I can see, Wood-mizer is the only company that offers them? How functional are these compared to the hydraulic ones?

Thanks

Brad_S. · July 30, 2005, 10:46:08 AM

woodbeard,

I am all for a stationary operator position with a hydraulic feed. While the saw head is making the cut, you can be pulling/stacking/stickering boards, rolling the next log on deck or just plain taking a breather or getting a drink. IMO, there is nothing to be gained by being up close and personal with the log while cutting and you lose time walking back and forth with the head that could be spent productively .

I agree you must have log levelers. I use them on just about every log, but I have no experience with manual ones so I can't help any there.

If there is any way you can swing it financially, hold on to the swinger and have both available. There are many times when I wish I had the best of both worlds!

Bibbyman · July 30, 2005, 10:47:38 AM

We've had two Wood-Mizers that you "walked along" with the head and now our newest one has the Command Control. When working alone, the "walk along" (or ride on a seat) has a lot of advantages. You're right there to pull the slab or board as soon as it's made.

The mill with the opperation station on one end requires you to move anyway unless you've got some real good kind of board dragback.

The Wood-Mizer manual toe boards work with a crank system. Our first mill was a manual mill but it didn't have toe board. We just had a couple of shims we used to block up the end of the log.

HORSELOGGER · July 30, 2005, 10:56:21 AM

Well, first off, because you started sawing on a swing blade type mill, you are forever ruined in the head and will have a hard time taking apart logs any other way ;D That being said, if you are making the switch, get as much hydraulic help as possible. A bandmill is generally more ,heavier work than a swinger, as the flitches, boards and slabs are much bigger and heavier. Even w/ hydraulics, they still need to be handled. The woodmizer walking back and forth is good if you are not going to run an edger, as you can throw the flitches over on the loader arms (if you have them ) for putting back on the mill later to edge. The drag backs w/ stationary operator sytems are not perfect and you will at times have to retrieve a board that has gone off the side. I think the toe board option is just about universally available w/ most band mills . Oh... remember the saying about the grass always seeming greener ??? Swing mill aggrevations and limitations not withstanding, you will inherit a whole host of new but diferent ones with a bandmill :D

Brad_S. · July 30, 2005, 11:15:02 AM

For clarification, I have neither drag back nor an edger (for on site work, anyhow) and still find stationary to be better. When the saw clears the end of the log I lift the head, bring it back and start the next cut before removing the piece that was just cut. While the saw is making the next board, I am dealing with the previous one. If it needs edging, when the saw clears, I slide the flitch down onto the arms as Horselogger mentioned. If I need to see the face for grade, the second the saw clears the log I can slide the board off and set it on the arms while I turn the log, start my cut, then deal with the board. I stand on the loader arm side while doing all this and gravity moves the board off the saw, not physical force. This may be the result of Woodmizer vs. other brands in the way you have to operate them.

Not to start another controversy, but I don't understand why WM users stop the blade and slide back along the previous cut. Starting and stopping the blade has been shown to be as hard or harder on it as if you just let it roll. Raising up and returning means you don't have to deal with the the board you just cut right at that moment as it's not in your way for a return.

Yep, that's why they make Fords AND Chevy's. :D

Tom · July 30, 2005, 02:28:25 PM

walking beside the cant as you cut it, in the case of a manual mill or one without a stationary operating station, has its advantages. You learn to make the best out of what you have whether manual or automatic, setworks or no setworks or remote station or not.. Being next to the cant lets you look at the board and cant faces. You can make a grading decision without leaving the work-station.

You can push slabs and flitches to the loader on a Wood Mizer to be handled as the next cut is being made. You can pull boards and stack on the outside of the sawdust "run" without taking but about three steps and not having to lift the whole board.

Most any mill with powered "gig back" has dragbacks now. I like them a lot, though there are many flitches with thin ends that don't allow themselves to be dragged back. The fingers go over rather than catch the end. These still need to be manually removed.

When working with heavier timbers you will find that the Drag-backs are worth their weight in gold. It is so easy to drag a 12 x 12 back off of the end of the mill onto a set of forks on a forklift or onto a truck or trailer.

Having the hydraulics to do jobs like this sure lets you sleep better at night. The more powerful and the faster that the loader works, the log can be leveled and the lumber removed is directly proportional to the number of Board Feet you can cut in a given time.

Stopping the blade to Gig the head back.

Wood Mizer taught us to stop the blade, years ago, because of a number of reasons.

1. It saved the blade when the theory was that a blade had only a certain number of revolutions in it before it began to work harden.

2. It prevented the blade from being pulled off of the bandwheels. There is nothing to stop this from happened on gig back if you accidentally hit something. It was perceived to be a safety procedure for this same reason.

3. Many times, an off-bearer would be removing lumber from the rear of the mill rather than the hitch end. Again, stopping the blade was a safety procedure to keep the off-bearer's hands away from a spinning blade and to keep him out of the 15 foot danger zone assigned as a safety zone.

4. Stopping the blade allows the head to be gigged back by dragging the blade through the kerf that was just cut rather than raising the head over the board. By coming back through the kerf, the sawyer can cut several boards without removing any. This allows entire small cants to be cut without off-bearing and saves a lot of steps for a sawyer working alone. It also saves the lengthy procedure of raising the band over several boards. You can usually get a couple of boards cut before the weight stops you from gigging back through the kerf. (this requires that you stop the blade before it exits the cant).

Minnesota_boy · July 30, 2005, 02:38:13 PM

5. Stopping the blade and dragging it back through the kerf can be used as a dragback if you want the flitch to end up at the operators end and the saw ends up at the same setting, causing fewer setting errors with less thinking.

woodbeard · July 30, 2005, 03:04:31 PM

QuoteWell, first off, because you started sawing on a swing blade type mill, you are forever ruined in the head and will have a hard time taking apart logs any other way

Horselogger, there aint much left in the ol' bean to be ruint anymore, so I'm not too worried. But yes, I realise I'm gonna have to reprogram what's left. :D

QuoteA bandmill is generally more ,heavier work than a swinger, as the flitches, boards and slabs are much bigger and heavier. Even w/ hydraulics, they still need to be handled.

Yes, but with the swing mill, I have to bend down and pick it up. At 35, I am already starting to have some back issues, and from what I have heard, they do not get better with age. An 8x8x16 weighs the same no matter what mill you saw it on, but if I can move it one end at a time to the stack in a standing position, that helps alot.
I'm glad to get your input on this, cause I know you have experience with both types. I would love to have both, but that is not an option financially. Besides, then folks would say that I swing both ways.. not that there's anything wrong with that. ;D

Other reasons I am thinking of a bandmill are:

Cutting deck: Aside from the height issue, I would really like to have the log/cant supported along it's whole length, not just at two points. Having the ends of a partially cut 16'+ log flapping around is becoming increasingly unacceptable. Also I really want the log/cant to be on a surface that is parallel to the blade travel and be able to clamp it there.

Portability: Most of my sawing is currently in one spot, but I envision doing more mobile jobs. The ability of the Peterson to be packed up on the truck and taken almost anywhere is wonderful, but too much work for me to do on a regular basis. I can pack it up and be off in 30 min. but it takes at least an hour to get it fully set up again. The places I have taken it have been secure enough to leave it overnight, but if I had to bring it in and out each day, it would make for a day short on sawing and long on hauling.

Capacity: The swingmill can handle a huge log, but in the time I have had it, I have not cut anything over 24" on it. I have a market for as many natural edge slices of log as I want to cut, but it would not be very efficient on the Peterson, and limited in width. Also, I am finding that in addition to the extra processes of doublecutting, I also have to skim the blade over both faces of the board to take out the intersect line in some species or else it will start to crack there when drying. Even if the ridge is very small, it seems to act as a break in the surface tension.

The Peterson is a really cool machine and there are alot of things I like about it. I think it was a good mill to start out with, and if I were still just sawing my own stuff, and occasionally for others, I could work around these factors I have listed. But I am at a point where I may have to drop or downsize a regular woodworking gig that has been my main source of income for 3 years, so I'm looking into the possibility of going more full time with sawing. I really don't see myself being able to do that with what I have.

So, from what Brad is saying, I take it that it's OK to let the carriage come to a stop on it's own? Is this so for the 12v powered ones as well as the hydraulic?

Well, I guess it took me a while to write that. ;D some new posts popped up, so I'm gonna digest them and get bac to this later.

Brad_S. · July 30, 2005, 03:10:25 PM

QuoteSo, from what Brad is saying, I take it that it's OK to let the carriage come to a stop on it's own? Is this so for the 12v powered ones as well as the hydraulic?

That's absolutely true on my Timber Harvester, but I don't know about any other brand mills. You'll need to hear from others before you go toasting any drive units! :D

woodbeard · July 30, 2005, 04:10:34 PM

QuoteYou'll need to hear from others before you go toasting any drive units!

I will toast a drive unit only when it has proved itself worthy. In fact, I have a fine bottle of pepsi I am saving for just the occasion. ;D

Thanks all for the replies! I don't know if I have an answer to my initial questions- it seems that there are pros and cons to both operator positions, but I have a much better picture of how one operates a bandmill. Or, rather I recognise that I need a better picture before I commit to anything. I have a friend with a lt30 nearby. I think I will see if I can pull boards for him one of these days. If he has toeboards on his, they will be the crank type Bibby mentioned, so I will see how well they work.

Minnesota_boy · July 30, 2005, 04:14:02 PM

I tend to run with the feed drive belt just a little loose so when the head hits the stop, it just slips the drive pulley in the belt. I try to not let it hit when gigging back as the head is moving a bit fast then, but it still stops and waits for me to return.

I never want to handle even one end of an 8x8x16, so I use rollers or slide it on a steel tubing to get it from the mill to the pile. I can handle a pretty big piece that way.

woodbeard · July 30, 2005, 06:52:37 PM

Yeah, I guess that is a bit heavy, I just threw that out as an example. Maybe more like 6x6 :D What mill do you have, Minnesota Boy? I am guessing you are describing electric powered feed?

dail_h · July 30, 2005, 09:36:38 PM

WB,
My Norwood has lever activated toeboards,an option. Stopping the blade is a nonissue,as my mill has a centrigul clutch, and usually stops when I turn the throttle loose. It's an all manual mill,I find it works better for me to raise the mill up,6x12s,I use a forklift,but have a cable - winch log loader-turner,another option

Minnesota_boy · July 30, 2005, 09:47:14 PM

Yup, its electric feed on my WM lt40hd.

Furby · July 30, 2005, 09:48:04 PM

So...............what ya asking for the swinger ??? ;D

woodbeard · July 31, 2005, 07:27:26 AM

Hi, Furby. I haven't decided for sure if I'm selling it, but PM me if you're interested. ;)

Gabby · July 31, 2005, 02:56:32 PM

Hi, not only does Norwood offer a manual toe board but they also have an automatic feed option now. Good luck in your search and but what YOU need!

Brucer · August 01, 2005, 01:35:01 AM

I ran a hydraulic WM LT-40 most of last season, and this year I've got my own manual LT-40 with the Log Deck Package (winch, loading ramps, claw turner, toeboards).

Toeboards on the hydraulic mill have heavy duty rollers so you can raise them both to roll a timber off the end of the mill -- but then what do you do with it ???. The toeboards on the manual mill each have a removable hand crank that stows in a holder on the inside of the main rail --exactly where you need them. The manual toeboards don't have a roller, and they don't work on anything below about 10" diameter. That usually isn't a problem -- I just use a 3 foot crowbar and a shim to level the smaller stuff. A 1/4" shim and a 1/2"shim seem to be enough for most work -- maybe a 1" shim for a small log with serious sweep (so why am I even cutting it?)

All the stuff on the manual mill is easy enough to operate, and as you'd expect, it's all a little slower. The manual clamp works really well, but it gets in the way if you want to push a flitch onto the ramps to deal with later.

I really notice how many small mistakes I could get away with on the hydraulic mill. Forget to lower the side stops enough? Back off the clamp, lower the stops, tighten the clamp -- all from the end of the mill. On the manual mill, I have to take a walk to fix it -- sometimes a walk down each side of the mill. In effect, the hydaulic mill is half way to having a fixed control station.

For the sort of wood I was cutting, I don't know that a remote control station would have been all that useful. I seemed to have to walk down the mill at least once on each log to take care of something, and that doesn't count dealing with flitches and slabs.

I mostly work alone, so I built myself a couple of ramps that can be quickly installed and removed on the "driver's side" of the mill for rolling and sliding heavy timbers off the mill. Set a couple of 4x4's on the ground to slide the timbers onto, and you build a pretty impressive pile of timbers without once lifting one. The ramp will work on any of the LT-27 through LT-40 models, hydraulic or manual.

So far my 56-year-old back can handle the demands of a manual mill, but I tend to back off and take my time when I'm faced with a heavy task. When I was shopping around for a used manual mill, I came across two that were being sold because their owners were having "back problems".

It's sure great if you can get some hands on-experience with a mill before jumping in.

woodbeard · August 01, 2005, 06:57:50 AM

Thanks! that helps a lot.

The lt40 manual is one of the mills I am considering. The Norwood seems like a nice mill, but I really need something bigger.
A hydraulic mill would be wonderful, and if a used one comes up in my price range, I may get it, but it is starting to look like I wont need to go full time with sawing. That's probably good, as I would likely get burned out on it, even with a hyd. mill. I will be sawing more, though, which I am looking forward to, and even a manual bandmill with some mechanical handling and power feed will be a big step above moving everything by brute force. :D