poll: old growth

[Ron Wenrich]

Expries  9-12-05

[Jeff]

Yes, Hartwick Pines near Grayling Michigan
http://www.michigandnr.com/parksandtrails/ParksandTrailsInfo.aspx?id=453

[Tom]

I've been in the Okeefenokee Swamp, the Great Dismal Swamp and many small natural forests in South Florida that have never been logged.

Many of the River swamps in the Southeast fall in this catagory.

[DanG]

I was in one this afternoon.

[Jeff]

I guess I been to the Okeefenokee as well. I dont think I was in an old growth area though was I Tom?

[Tom]

You sure were.  When you were standing on the edge of the canal, you were in the edge of the swamp.  Just cause they weren't too big doesn't mean that they were second growth.  Some of that had been cut over and some hadn't.

You were crawling around trying to catch a lizard on the Satilla in an old growth forest as well.  That little road we took down the banks to the little cabin skirted old growth hardwoods and pine as well.

[pasbuild]

There are a few scattered white pines that have been left untouched and the Estavane (sp?) pines in the copper country, also the very top of mount curwood has been untouched.

[Sprucegum]

I got to see some of the big Redwoods in northern California in the early 90's.

It was an epiphany for me and the memory has never faded.

There is also a cedar grove on the other side of Roger's Pass the I have visited a few times, and enjoy it very much every time.

[beenthere]

What IS old growth? 

[Tom]

I'm glad you asked me that, Beenthere, seein's how I'm an expert and all.

Old Growth means that there are some trees in a stand that are older than the trees the observer normally sees in a stand.

It is, of course, a misnomer since some people think of old growth as virgin.  But even in a virgin stand, there were plants there before.   Perhaps when identifying with "succession", old growth means that the forest is fully mature.

It's unfortunate that we humans tend to think of things only in human years and lifetimes.   Perhaps some think of old growth as older than they.   Perhaps it's old growth if their great granddaddy planted it.  Perhaps, to some, it has to be a thousand years old.

I tend to catagorize it as a mature tree that is old enough that it hasn't been molested by humans.

What is Old Growth is a question usually asked to trip someone up, but, I didn't falter, did I? 

Yep, it's got a lot to do with being confronted in board rooms.   ..........that's a pun and I'll take it.

[Ernie_Edwards]

Yesterday Darla and I went to Hartwick Pines that Jeff mentioned. Hard to imagine that all of this part of Michigan was once covered with those magnificent trees. One of the facts we picked up yesterday ws that at the time of the logging operations about 100+ years ago, the value of the lumber from Michigan exceeded all the gold from Californias gold rush.

Below our house is a swamp. Not on the order of what they have in Toms neck of the woods, just a wet area. When we walk thru there admiring the trees we are amazed at the size of the white pine stumps that are still there after more than 100 yrs. Some of those stumps have 20" ceders growing out of the middle of them

As a point of interest they had their old steam powered sawmill running. Put on a nice show. They diverted a steam line from the engine to a 55 gal barrel in which they steamed ears of sweet corn. It was an old whisky barrel and they said the first year they used it the corn was certainly tasty. I've  heard of corn liquor before but this is the first liquor corn. (SORRY, couldn't resist)

[Bibbyman]

I’ve been in both virgin and old growth timber. 

Back in the 60’s Dad cut some white oak on this farm owned buy a little old man.  The farm had been in the same family since the area was settled. Most of the farm was old growth but one corner had about 20 acres of truly colossal white oak trees that had never had any trees taken out that was not damaged or dead. 

I’d seen a lot of big trees and had been in a lot of old growth timber but had never seen a stand like this one.  Almost every tree was white oak 5’ on the stump and 30-40 feet to the first limb.  There was almost no under growth.  The few small trees only existed in the couple of spots where one of the old trees had fallen and lift a hole in the canopy.  And then they were like power poles with a crown on top.

Our farm is typical of all the farms in my area and has been heavily cut over for many years.  Any spot that was level enough to log has been and more than a couple of times.  Any ground fertile enough to grow corn or grass had been cleared and then let grow back into brush once it played out.  Much of the timber on it is what I’d call new growth – invasion trees like black oak, post oak, elm, hickory, eastern red cedar, etc.  Even trees 3’ on the stump have grown in places that had been planed in corn in my lifetime. 

But I can take you to some remote spots where there still stand trees that were too difficult to drag out with equipment at the time.  There are trees standing there that while not what I’d call virgin,  had grown and matured there among trees since the end of the ice age.

Its ironic,  but I can take you to other spots on my farm where there are virgin tree stands but you’d not recognize them.  There are sand and limestone outcroppings on the south facing bluffs that have snarled stunted trees on them that look like an unmanaged patch of brush.  Yet you cut one and find the growth rings too close together to count.  A tree 8” on the butt may be over a couple hundred years old.  Almost none have been cut because of their remote location and no value been small and crooked and many having damage from storms and fire.  There are a lot of deed trees in this area because of the poor growing conditions.

So… it is confusing.  New, old, virgin?

[SwampDonkey]

Been in old growth cedar stands, mixed forest (Acadian) and West Coast softwood forest.  Alot of our landscape has been burned through in the last 200 years. Also we had alot more cleared farm land 80 years ago than we do now. My favorite old growth is hardwood, nice and clean walking underneath those maple trees.

[Corley5]

Colonial Point east of Brutus, Mi on Burt Lake.  Huge red oak, white pine and a few sugar.  Some is owned jointly by U of M and the Little Traverse Conservancy some is owned soley by the Conservancy.  Cool place to visit.  It was saved from the chainsaw in the mid 80s

[OneWithWood]

Great Dismal Swamp in the early 60s
Sequoia stands in California on numerous occasions
Stood close to Tom and Noble at the pig roast 2004 - does that count? 

[IndyIan]

I've been to a couple "old growth" areas.  Cathedral Grove and Clayquot Sound, both on Vancouver Island.  Some very impressive trees and landscape. 
Also in Southern Ontario there are a few patches of old growth Hemlock around.  The one near a cottage I go to has Hemlock 3 to 4' dbh and maybe 120' tall.  Most are rotting from the center out but judging by the rings on the live outer pieces they are over 300 years old.  Its amazing how much undergrowth springs up when there is a gap after one of these monsters falls.
 

[Ron Scott]

California Redwoods. Visited Muir Woods in San Franciso, CA area this past June. Old Growth forests are described in many ways and not just a function of age.

[sawguy21]

I got to see some of the big Redwoods in northern California in the early 90's.

It was an epiphany for me and the memory has never faded.

There is also a cedar grove on the other side of Roger's Pass the I have visited a few times, and enjoy it very much every time.

Those redwoods are incredible. It is twilight on the ground even on a bright afternoon.  I worked in heli-logging in B.C. and saw some beautiful coastal forests.

[IndyIan]

Ron,
I would interested to hear how a forester would define old growth forests.  A combination of tree age, basal area, stems per acre, and plant and animal species present?  I'm guessing there would be a different definition for each forest type?
I know subjectively most "old growth" areas have a certain look to them, which I don't think I've seen in any area that has been harvested.  I'm sure you've been through more woods than me and I wonder if you see the same thing?
Ian

[thedeeredude]

Been to Tall Timbers State Park of Snyder County PA.  Nothing but old growth Hemlocks.  Most of them are dying off right now and a lot of birch is coming in now.  There's some trees laying on the ground that scale out over 3500 feet.