So how big you want'em ?

[Murf]

Thurlow, I use the "Standard Buyer's Scale" ........

That one renders a measurement about 20% less than you'd think the size actually was.  ;)

:D  :D  :D  :D   :D  :D

[thurlow]

Hey Murf, I meant no harm; glad you "got" it................ :D

[Murf]

Even across the broad expanse of cyber space I could see your tongue stuck firmly in your cheek. 

Matter of fact it was an easy call, I 'd have said something remarkably similar if someone else had made the post.  ;D

[Max sawdust]

Hemlock by marsh behind house in Northern Wisconsin.  3 or 4 like that in a small area.  Tops do not look too good.

Here is another Hemlock near by, that uprooted, I will mill this one up some day.

Here is a nice Northern Red oak (for forest grown in northern wisconsin on poor soil)


Did not get pics of some big white pine, but I was in my house pants and the snow was deep 1/2 mile from the house:D  Also have a few crop tree big tooth and quaking aspen that were not harvested by me last year durning a DNR cut.  The aspen are a little smaller DBH than the oak, but TALL TALL TALL.  (Man dropping those is a rush ;D)

Max

[SwampDonkey]

Also have a few crop tree big tooth and quaking aspen that were not harvested by me last year durning a DNR cut.  The aspen are a little smaller DBH than the oak, but TALL TALL TALL.  (Man dropping those is a rush ;D)

Max

Especilly, when they explode on impact. :D :D :D BOOOOM!!!

You better get more than the pj's on when sawing up them hemlock. ;D

Some of them old aspen have these big upswung limbs, kind of scary in under there sawing away when they have false tinder conk sprout'n out of the trunk. I'de be afraid of one of those big limbs breaking off as it made the tip and struck a neighboring tree. Great widow makers.  :

Aspen here, must be similar to over your way, they are often taller than our hardwoods when mixed with them. They wouldn't survive otherwise. We've cut all our largetooth here a few years ago, just have a few mature trembling and balm. :D :D Trembling die off here beside the house after they get about 8 inches. Don't know why unless it's elevation. Those aspen I photographed are on lower ground. I'll have to get some pics of large tooth compared to trembling growth. There is quite a difference in size at the same age.

I was visiting a corner of the woodlot where I left some maple along a brook,in an area I thinned in 1999 and the beavers cut them off. With all the aspen around, why my maples? They were growing so good too. :D

[Max sawdust]

SD,
ya we have a family of Beaver I have not got around to trapping yet.  Sure enough the cut some nice maples growing on the shoreline >:(
I found some full size aspen the beavers felled (20+ inch DBH trees )  I do nor mind them clearing out the smaller stuff to release the white pine, but they sure make a mess.

Our big tooth and quaking aspen seem to grow at the same rate on our glacial soil in my area of northern wisconsin.  22-24 DBH seems to be it before they rot 50' up in the middle and then the tops blow off  

Next to the white pine and red pine the aspen are the tallest thing in the woods   The Oaks and maples seem "short" like understory trees in an mature aspen stand.  Cords add up fast with the aspen ;D
Even though the are majestic and good for the grouse and other wildlife, I do not care for large solid stands of aspen because clear cutting at maturity is the best managment practice.
Yes I do value my life and widow makers from big aspen is a real threat.  Escape routes are always planned and I look up as I am cutting, when a 100'+ aspen starts to move I move ;)
Max

[Ron Wenrich]

Sent a load of sycamore yesterday and I wish I had a picture for you guys.  7 logs scaled out out 4747 Doyle.  One 12' log had 1080 bf - 42" dib.  The rest were in 10' logs.

A number of years ago, I had a timber sale in the Philadelphia area.  Our red oak averaged 36" with the largest being 52".  I can't find any of the pictures we took on that stand. 

We used to routinely leave trees that were 22", as long as they were healthy.  Now the foresters mark anything over 18" as if it were some magical number, and many go smaller. 

Jim Berkheimer in Wisconsin is using 32-36" as target sizes for crop trees.  There isn't anything that says you can't manage for those sizes, just landowner and industry greed.

[Black_Bear]

Ron, you wrote:

"Now the foresters mark anything over 18" as if it were some magical number, and many go smaller."

Are the marking guides based on the internal rate of return of the tree? In other words, if we won't see a 4% (arbitrary number, every company has their own hurdle rate) increase in the return before the next entry then hack it? 

[crtreedude]

Can I join in?



This is a Ceiba - and it is probably 200' tall too.

The number of really massive trees here is dwindling all the time, but we still find them.

When you start using horses as scale for trees, you know you are talking some serious size.

[SwampDonkey]

CR, yup....no holds bared. ;D

That's an impressive specimen. I have no idea about your species of trees, but don't let that stop ya from posting some.

[Murf]

Yeah, but that's cheating, it gets 3 summers every year in growing time.   :D

[SwampDonkey]

Most farmers are looking at paying farm bills, it don't matter about rates of return or cumination points on growing wood. Most of our hardwood sites in the settlements are  turning into poplar/softood stands because of clearcutting or removing too much volume and leaving suppressed flat topped, skun-up, broken topped or multistemed junk. My strategy for hardwood on my lot is to thin at 5-9 meters, do a crop tree release in 20-30 years, and space again in 20 years for pulp. But, I'm not going to live long enough. ;D The way the industry is suffering we may not be cutting wood in NB in 30 years. Costs can't keep rising, while prices keep falling. At one time the foresty companies bought the machinery to cut thier own wood. Then they laid those guys off, who then leased the equipment to work on the company ground or move on to another career. The next step is that nobody is going to be working. :

UPM is shut down since the first of the month for 3 months and there is talk that the labor has to take a 12 % pay cut. The union says no, so I guess they'de rather have no job. They are already getting 2 or 3 times as much as the average joe holding a chain saw and have a warm dry place to work 365 days a year.

[Ron Wenrich]

Bear

The only return that a lot of these guys look at is if they are going to return to the woodlot.  They figure they might as well get it while they can, then call it a "reproduction cut".   Foresters of several ilks do this.

The average log size has been declining.  Not due to lack of growth, but the number of cuts.  Red oak prices are up, so maturity happens at 14".  Beech prices are down, so that is a den tree.  Prices are more of a factor than actual maturity.

The problem with a lot of those internal rates of return is that they decline as the trees get older.  But, if you have a rate of return of 20% on $1 worth of wood, you will make less money than $5 at 5%.  If the rate of return is the only factor, then you'll cut your timber when it crosses over from pulp to sawlog.  Rate of return continues to go down as the trees get larger.

If you want to produce quality lumber, then you need some larger trees to put on better growth.  A good deal of the growth is put into high quality lumber.  Usually not the case with small stemmed trees.  The percentage of low grade wood vs high grade wood is pretty pronounced between small logs and big logs. 

So the question becomes are we interested in growing high quality wood or just growing fiber?

[crtreedude]

You are correct about the perpetual summer - a roble coral (that is a kind of oak) can be 12" at chest level in about 6 years. 

It has some pretty interesting colors too.

[Black_Bear]

"So the question becomes are we interested in growing high quality wood or just growing fiber?"

Why can't we do both? Here is an article on some new concepts being tested in the east:

http://www.ume.maine.edu/~MIAL/dh/

[SwampDonkey]

Any more pictures ?  ;D  8)

The thread has taken a little twist I think. I even had one of my meanering threads all typed out here and I decided to delete it. What was in it, I've already hashed over.  :D In my experience it doesn't seem to matter how good our intensions are, the landowner ultimately decides what's in his interest and we can preach until we're blue in the face. That doesn't mean we shouldn't stop preaching, but when you look at the woodlots in some areas it seems to be a loosing battle.  :-\

cheers

[SwampDonkey]

5 inch mountain maple growing in the plantation. Dead pin cherry stub to the right. ;)

[Murf]

Does the toque help them in the cold weather much?  :

[jon12345]

The electric pole is a goo scale, these trees are growing at the end of our lawn.  Ash and maple are good size, Ill go measure them exactly later today, but I think both are 30+ the 3rd big one is high 20's


     
The results are in:
     33"                  35"                                    31"

[SwampDonkey]

Max and I were discussing window makers earlier in the thread, so I thought we should have some pics. ;D



24 inch dbh widow maker aspen. Has conk and wide spreading upper limbs.



Wide spreading upper limbs of another widow maker aspen.



Don't know if you can see the big limbs of this wind blown aspen, but definately another widow maker. I measured the length of this beast from stump to tip with a loggers tape and it was 24 meters (77 feet). I measured the diameter at roughly 6 meters (19 feet) because the but was covered in ice and crusty snow and I got 21 inches. There was one wind blown at a right angle from this one that I measured at 23.5 m (75 feet) tall. What a jungle in there with the tops and new growth growing up through it.

[slowzuki]

Oh I remembered another big tree, for its species, there is an about 20-22" diameter red oak on our property line growing out of a rock pile.  It is the largest of about 20 growing there.

Very nice looking tree and produces thousands and thousands of acorns every fall attracting squirels from miles around.

[SwampDonkey]

Slowzuki, You probably don't know it, but there was an old smasher of a red oak on the UNB campus in Fredericton. I beleive it was 6 feet on the stump, but it died in the 1980's I believe.

[farmerdoug]

Those are some great looking trees guys. 8)  But I would be careful as I hear those Peterson mill owners love to cut up those great big trees.  They may sneak in while you are away and leave you with a pile of sawdust and bark.

Farmerdoug

[SwampDonkey]

No Petersons in site. There are a bunch of Pattersons that live down the road though. :D

[slowzuki]

I'd certainly believe it, there are some monster trees around town here.  Some of the elm's they cut two years ago to widen Regent were huge!

Slowzuki, You probably don't know it, but there was an old smasher of a red oak on the UNB campus in Fredericton. I beleive it was 6 feet on the stump, but it died in the 1980's I believe.