35 HP Briggs & Stratton Vanguard

[woodbowl]

I sure would like to get some first hand info from an owner of a 35 HP Briggs & Stratton Vanguard air cooled motor. From what I hear, they can really deliver the power to a lawn mower.

I'm interested in the application for a sawmill of course, but it seems a bit early for the reports to come rolling in. It weighs 143 lbs and priced around $2300 - $2400.


http://www.hovercraft.com/content/index.php?main_page=product_oversize_info&cPath=61&products_id=149


http://www.nextag.com/Garden-Power-Tools--zz2700359z6zBkz5---html


http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200322176_200322176


http://www.scag.com/turftiger35bv_ac.html

[woodbeard]

I've been curious about these, myself. I guess they haven't been out long enough to generate a lot of reviews. The thing I don't get is they are about the same displacement as my 24hp Onan. Not only that, but briggs offers 3 models in that line that are the same displacement with different HP ratings. I don't know too much about small engines, but this seems odd. ???

[Brian_Rhoad]

I don't know about that particular engine, but the Vanguard is the top of the line from Briggs. I have been thinking about trying that engine on my mill. As far as the different HP ratings, the difference could be in the carb size. The Briggs 8 and 10 HP are both 306cc. The difference is the throat size of the carb and intake.

[sawguy21]

The camshaft design also plays a big role in horsepower and torque and at what rpm they are produced.

[woodbowl]

One thing I've noticed is that the crank shaft for the 35 Vanguard is 1- 1/8" dia.

The crank for my 25 hp Kohler is 1- 7/16" dia.

I don't get it. ........  Seems like it should be the other way around.

[Tom]

OMC has been doing it for years.  If you use outboards at all, you will know that Johnson and Evinrude 9.5/10 horse and 15 horse were the same engine, but for carburetion.  It's easier to manufacture one engine for two markets, by de-tuning one, than shelf parts for two or three different engines.  

In outboards, the 10 was standard until bureaucracies decided that you had to have less than 10 horses to run in certain waters.  So they renamed the 10 the 9.5.   Then they found that there was a market for a stronger engine than the 9.5 and the 15 was born.  Well, it was already there, they just turned loose the horsepower.

What made the little engines stick was that belief, by the users, that the de-tuned 9.5 would outlast a high-tuned 15 and they wanted longevity in a fishing engine.  They may have been right.

It could be that you are seeing some of the same manufacturing/marketing concepts in these small equipment engines.

[sawguy21]

OTT, but 10 hp also required the boat be registered so through some clever rebadging :D the 9.5/9.9 were born.

[Radar67]

I don't get it. ........  Seems like it should be the other way around.

Seems like the smaller crank diameter would produce a longer stroke.

Stew

[Corley5]

John Deere has engines that pretty much are the same with different heads, injector pumps and with or without turbos cover a wide range of hp with basically the same engine.  Cummins does it too.  The 5.9 in Dodge trucks is tuned to 500 hp for marine applications 8)

[MartyParsons]

The Kohler engines are spec. with heavier crank bearing to withstand side load on the Wood-Mizer mills. I have heard of customers replacing engines and some only last a couple 100 hours and the crank bushing fails. I am not sure about the Vanguard might be a good bet to check it out.
Marty

[twoodward15]

Woodbowl, I'll check with a guy I work with.  He works at a business that uses these motors I think.  He said they are not allowed to keep anything (extra parts) on the shelf for more than three years.  Seems as though they haven't had a failure on one of these in that time and they are going to "dispose" of them.  If this is the same motor it may disposed of in my vehicle.  Seems that they have a few of these "available" but they are going to pitch them because they are taking up too much space.  I'll check with him tomorrow and see what the deal is with them. 

[doublecut]

woodbowl.
i have used the 31 and the 35 and seem to work pretty good. A little heavy for our application.
We have just tried out the new 30 h.p kohler.  Kohler has a 36 h.p coming out as well. I recieve the first one next week to test.
So far we are leaning towards kohler
doublecut

[GF]

I have a 31HP Briggs Vanguard V-Twin running on my mill.  Bought it new last year.  If I remember correctly it comes with a two commercial use warranty.  I really like the motor, its total weight is around 110 lbs.  It provides plenty of power to the blade and a hydraulic pump.  The motor I had on my mill prior to that was a Wisconsin VH4D 30HP (heavy) and worn out.

All in all I have been very pleased with the motor starts up when its cold outside or hot outside.

[Jim_Wahl]

I think the 35hp B&S engine is available with either a 1 1/8 or 1 7/16 inch crank shafts, your choice.
You beter choose 1 1/8 if you buy it from Northern, though.

[woodbowl]

The Kohler engines are spec. with heavier crank bearing to withstand side load on the Wood-Mizer mills. I have heard of customers replacing engines and some only last a couple 100 hours and the crank bushing fails.

You beter choose 1 1/8 if you buy it from Northern, though.

Why would 1 1/8 be better?

[sawguy21]

The bearing size is the same with either crank, the sprocket, pulley, coupling, clutch etc being used determines which one is needed. The 1-1/8 is more common.

[woodbowl]

OK .............  So chances are, we get a crank that is HD enough for the job and has large enough crank bearings that will take the side load. The only difference being the diameter on the PTO end, as 1 1/8"  is a more common size to accept pullys. clutches ect.  ...........  Right?

It just seems odd to me that a motor with more HP would have a smaller PTO diameter.

The Kohler engines are spec. with heavier crank bearing to withstand side load on the Wood-Mizer mills. I have heard of customers replacing engines and some only last a couple 100 hours and the crank bushing fails.

I sure would like to know the particulars of it all.

I do know that WM does some things different on the 25 Kohler. One of them is a bigger carb jet to keep it from running too lean and a bit cooler. Their Onan was different too, but not sure how. I got an Onan from Northern about 8-10 years ago and ran the stew out of it. It only lasted 2000 hrs. I had valves replaced several times and cracks on the head pinged back together. Unless a person has a lot of knowledge about these little engines, it is probably cheaper in the long run to fork out the extra money and get the recomended engine from the MFG, especially if dealing with a reputible company like WM ect.

[jpgreen]

Look at the shaft where it sits in the engine block.

My Kawasaki has a 1 1/4" shaft, BUT at the block it steps up to 1 7/16" just like the Onan, and the Kohler.  It's just been turned down to 1 1/4" to accomodate smaller sheaves.

THis works out well because the old Onan had a 1 1/4" shaft that stepped up to 1 7/16" at the rear of the sheave so I turned a reducer bushing to set in the back of the sheave.

I think that if the old Onan, and Kohler sized 1 7/16" shaft is strong enough for the WoodMizer, then the Kawasaki will be as well.

I'd check the shaft size at the block, and think you will/may find it's big..   8)

[jpgreen]

Just cause I never actually measured it, I went and checked the shaft on the Kawa and it steps up to 1 5/8" before it goes into the block.

That should do her, unless they use a wimpy shaft bearing.

[tcsmpsi]

jp, is that measurement with the cobwebs and all on it?   ;D

I was just looking at the big tub set up yesterday evening.  That good looking two banger would sure run me a lot of laundry.

[jpgreen]

The Kawa-mizer's like fine wine Michael.  You shall serve no wine before it's time..  :D


-now that I've talked all this smack, it'll prolly blow up on me..  ;D

[tcsmpsi]

woodbowl,

I do not have any first hand info on the 35 hp B&S, nor any on a mill engine set up.

I do know from what little I have seen, that the mill stress on an engine is going to be more similar to that of a motorcyle than a lawnmower.

What I have found in a myriad of motorcycle engine/applications is the the balance of bore/stroke ratio does tend to have a direct influence on shaft/bearing life.  Oversquare (large bore/short stroke), though good for rpm transfer capability, has shown to create a notable shorter shaft/bearing life when run hard.
Have been able to compensate for that some with a wider variety of gear ratios and oil coolers.

Hmmm...jp, I see you have been digging around a little.   ;)

In honesty, that engine you have setting there....well... there is part of me that really does itch to hear it sing.   It should make one heck of a mill engine.

[Jg]

I know this is an old thread, but wanted to add some balance to whats here.

The Briggs 35hp big block is a pure industrial engine. It is designed for continuous duty under harsh conditions. I run one on a stump grinder- this is hot, heavy loads service, shock loads when hitting a rock, and many start/stop cycles. The Briggs is totally comfortable in any role that requires torque and constant loads.

I am putting a Briggs 35 on my wood-mizer and know it will be stellar for that.

The Kohler and Briggs are similar service engines. I have run both for 100's of hours and prefer the Vanguard as it has a different crank bearing design. The Kohlers are prone to developing an oil leak at the crankcase gasket. These engines use a design that makes replacing this gasket a pretty big deal.
Anyway, with a thoughtful approach to this sawmill upgrade it is totally sensible. Put the fuel and lube tanks on the back side of the raise/lower pillars to minimize cantilevered weight out on the saws arm. Both the Briggs and Kohler 35's weight enough that incremental things like tank placement will help balance the weight increase over a 15 or 20hp engine.

I have milled enough now to see the value in a ten hp increase over a 25. When you are in wide, frozen, hardwoods, knotty woods, keeping blade speed and feed rate and blade temps where you want them is much harder on a mill with less power. I have experienced the sweet spot when the mill is running right at its best combination of the above and milling is far more enjoyable, results better, and although we are talking manual milling, faster.
Run synthetic oil. Change every 50hrs. Both these engines can go 5000+hrs if you service them.