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Author Topic: Sap hemoraging from dying tree  (Read 6126 times)

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Offline Sprucegum

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Sap hemoraging from dying tree
« on: October 30, 2006, 08:46:07 PM »
 This old spruce has seen its day but I have never seen this before
 

 and here is the base of the tree

 

What is causing this? A guy told me it might be Pine Beetles! How can I make sure?

Offline pineywoods

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Re: Sap hemoraging from dying tree
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2006, 09:21:10 PM »
Sure looks like pine beetles to me. And I got plenty of them here...
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Offline Sprucegum

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Re: Sap hemoraging from dying tree
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2006, 10:12:35 PM »
DANG!!

The nearest beetle is supposed to be 700 miles from here.  >:(

Can I make sure by peeling back some bark to find the little devils? How high up the tree would I have to go to find them?

I'd like to make a positive identification before I contact the local DNR.

Offline pineywoods

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Re: Sap hemoraging from dying tree
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2006, 09:36:16 PM »
If the tree is already dead, you probably wouldn't find anything. These little rascals eat the inner bark, eventually ringing the tree and killing it. When his meal ticket plays out, he will leave and go find a fresh tree. The beetle lives under the bark, but needs an air hole, that's where the tree will bleed sap. Clumps of hardend sap are the first sign of beetle infestation. Usually, you don't know they are there until the tree dies, by then they are gone looking for another home.
They keep me busy, almost all the trees I saw are beetle kills.
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Offline WDH

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Re: Sap hemoraging from dying tree
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2006, 10:34:13 AM »
Something has physically damaged the tree to stress it and cause the pitch flow.  If beetles did it, there should be little spots of pitch where they bored into the wood.  Once you see this, the tree is usually done-for.
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Offline WDH

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Re: Sap hemoraging from dying tree
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2006, 10:37:09 AM »
I forgot to add that at the pitch spot, there will be a little hole about the diameter of a grain of rice where the beetle bored into the wood.  The pitch flow is the tree's way of trying to repel the invader.  I have seen cases where the pitch traps the little bugger, and he is sticking to the pitch spot on the outside of the tree.
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Offline Sprucegum

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Re: Sap hemoraging from dying tree
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2006, 06:06:54 PM »
Thanks for the info.

Its going to be 2 weeks before I can get back out there and have a look. If the ground is froze hard enough by then I will fall it and have a good look.

Offline Phorester

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Re: Sap hemoraging from dying tree
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2006, 10:07:27 AM »
SPRUCEGUM, if this tree is dying, or weak from old age,  then this could just be a decomposing insect attracted to the dying tree.  There's lots of bugs that attack trees. Most are only attracted to sick and dying trees. But some are pretty destructive to living trees and those are the ones people think they have. 

What beetle are you referring to that is 700 miles away?  I'd think that is the last one you would find in your tree.  Remember too that a pine beetle will not attack spruce.

Why would you want to figure out this insect before contacting the DNR?  That's the folks who can tell you what it is.

Not critiziing you at all, just asking for more info.

One other thing........., the picture of the trunk is dark, and I might be seeing something that is not actually in the picture, but it almost looks like there are horizontal lines of holes in the trunk a few feet above the ground where the sap is coming out.  If so, then this could be sapsucker damage and not a beetle or other insect.  On the stump itself , is there also evidence of boring activity, or is this just where the sap is dripping on it from above?
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Offline Woodhog

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Re: Sap hemoraging from dying tree
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2006, 04:38:35 PM »
The first thought that crossed my mind is your old spruce is symbolic of the Canadian
Forest Industry...  :D

Offline Sprucegum

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Re: Sap hemoraging from dying tree
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2006, 10:12:02 PM »
The beetle I was refering to is the Mountain Pine Beetle and I was told they would attack spruce as well as pine. They have become an epidemic in British Columbia and are headed this way thanks to prevailing westerly winds, global warming, etc.They will get here eventually if not sooner. They have already crossed the Rockies so its clear sailing all the way to the East Coast.

I have been reading up on them and have come to the conclusion its probably some other bug bugging me. The sap has no borer dust in it and does not appear to be coming out of the trunk in "pine beetle formation".

The sap is running out somewhere above the top of the photo and is piling up at the base of the trunk. I plan on falling it this weekend for a better look at the top and under the bark.

It would be an all-day job for DNR to come out here and see for themselves so I would rather collect all the info I can and save them the trip, but I still want to solve the mystery :

Who's kickin' the sap outa my tree?

Offline Phorester

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Re: Sap hemoraging from dying tree
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2006, 12:01:10 AM »

I think you are right, this is not mountain pine beetle.  Whoever told you they attacked spruce was mistaken. Even if they did hit spruce, the damage shown in your photo is not bark beetle damage.

Are there horizontal lines of holes in the trunk, or am I mistaken?
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Offline Sprucegum

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Re: Sap hemoraging from dying tree
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2006, 08:10:15 PM »
I took a few more pics yesterday but did not fall the tree. It is in a dangerous location and I was alone. I believe I was mistaken in calling it a spruce, I think it is a Tamarack. Would the Pine Beetles be having a larch?






One of the bugs is on the tip of my hatchet, poor quality, my camera gets fuzzy when it gets cold.





Offline Sprucegum

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Re: Sap hemoraging from dying tree
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2006, 08:13:12 PM »
 And here is a pic of just under the bark






Offline Pullinchips

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Re: Sap hemoraging from dying tree
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2006, 05:47:14 PM »
i don't know about moutain pine beetle but the southern pine beetle leaves S-shaped galleries.
I also can not tell much from those photos as they are kind of far away.
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Offline Sprucegum

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Re: Sap hemoraging from dying tree
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2006, 06:04:12 PM »
I just discovered some info on another post that makes me think they are Spruce Bark Beetles. They act alot like the Pine Beetles , probably cousins.

I will be doing some selective cutting to reduce their impact and improve the stand health. I haven't mapped it yet but I estimate about 20 acres of mature spruce with a fair bit of windthrow and deadfalls in it, I'll be working like 10 men to get that cleaned up by spring! 

If I can keep my camera warm maybe I can get some better pictures, it kinda freezes at -5 C and that's not even cold!  ::)

Offline tonich

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Re: Sap hemoraging from dying tree
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2006, 04:37:15 AM »
Sprucegum,
How many trees on those 20 acres are attacked by beetles?
Are they single trees, or are they dense groups of trees?
You should figure this out, for the spring cutting.

Online SwampDonkey

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Re: Sap hemoraging from dying tree
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2006, 08:14:09 PM »
Move'n on.

Offline fuzzybear

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Re: Sap hemoraging from dying tree
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2007, 09:15:18 AM »
   Sorry to say it sprucegum you definatly have spruce beetle problems. We've been hit hard by them little @#$%$% for a while now.  Because of them and dry conditions we lost millions of acres of forest 3 years ago.
   Only thing is I guess they are the mutant variety up here cause the adults are about 4" long and take one hell of a bite out of you. I've been attacked by the little @#$% when I started cutting through "their" trees.
   Contact your forestry departmant as soon as posible there are things that can be done to stop them, and stop their spred into more healthy trees. You may loose the lot for a short time, but you will have excelent firewood for next year.
I never met a tree I didn't like!!

Offline tonich

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Re: Sap hemoraging from dying tree
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2007, 09:29:59 AM »
You may loose the lot for a short time, but you will have excelent firewood for next year.
True… but pity…
The Norway spruce big timber is considering  as one of the most valuable in my country.

As for spruce beetle attack, a I’ve had some good results with trap trees – very cheap and effective method.
A good option are pheromone traps, as well.
Unfortunately, no one can fight dry weather conditions, which is an accelerator for beetle sexual productivity.

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Re: Sap hemoraging from dying tree
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2007, 10:56:21 AM »
Tonich, welcome to the forum!
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