Swing mill/slabber to increase production

[treebucker]

Hello all,

I'm new to this forum but have been lurking for months.  I have been milling with a LM2000 since last summer. I work with my brother mostly on weekends. We are doing custom on-site milling for others. We're in the process of building a 32'x32' barn/shop and have plans to build a mill shed, drying shed and solar kiln as money/time allows.

I seems as though we are getting bogged down cutting too much rough-sawn construction lumber. The jobs keep backing up.  I don't like to have so much of our time tied up in cutting low-profit rough-cut construction lumber for others but it brings in the other higher-profit items.

A manual bandmill is too slow for this kind of work. It seems the smart thing to do would be to get a swing mill to relieve the rough-cut production bottleneck and get a slabber attachment with it.  I'm thinking we need something that will cut a 20' log,mostly 2x lumber, break down larger logs for finishing on the LM2000, and cut slabs from logs, crotches and stumps.

I've looked at Peterson's web site but I don't have any experience with swing mills so I'm looking to you who have swing mills with slabbers to tell me what model and options you would suggest. I would also like to get an estimated cost for your recommendation.

Thanks

[brdmkr]

Welcome to the forum.  I have a Lucas 618 and it does a pretty good job with 2x material.  Funny, I often find myself wanting a band mill while you are looking for a swinger :D  You'll find a few folks here who have both.  I think they would really compliment each other.

Swing mills really shine with really large logs and I find that the bigger the log the higher the production rate.  Log and lumber handling are the big time sinks.  I can saw 800  or so bdft a day working alone, taking my time, and sawing logs that are 16 " or so on the small end.  With a helper, this number will easily double.

I don't have a slabber, but I do see one on the horizon (this year). 

[Fla._Deadheader]

No matter what kind of mill you have, moving logs and lumber is where you fall short. Some form of loader-skid steer, tractor, forklift is a MUST HAVE. It will easily double your production if you don't have something now. Very large logs are tough. You think there is a lot of quick lumber in there, but, first, you have to get it to the mill. THAT takes time.

  I use a Peterson WPF, carriage adjusts up-down, not the tracks, and where I saw, I get slow production. Can't use a machine in the Jungle, very well  : :

  Tell us more about your setup. Maybe someone with more experience can pinpoint a bottle neck for you.

  Welcome to the Forum, treebucker

[Mobilesawyer]

Hey Treebucker:
I have had a Peterson 8" WPF and think it's funny that if you have one thing (swinger) you probably want something else. In my case I lust after either a Mobile Dimension 128 or if the dreams become really erotic a Mighty Mite D1212. If you have not looked at these you might want to have a look.
N.B. Never had a slabber.

Good Luck

[Part_Timer]

Treebucker

Welcome to the forum.

I'm the RC for Petersons for IN and KY.  If you'd like to come up and run the 25 hp ATS I have your more than welcome to.  Feel free to IM and I'll send you my phone number.

[Ron Wenrich]

There's lots of different ways you can go.  But, I think a lot depends on the size of your logs.  If you have just average sized logs, a dimension or double cut can give you a piece of lumber in one pass. 

If your logs really large, then a swing mill gives you a lot of versatility.  The slabber won't give you any increased production, just some different products that you can produce. 

You could also consider a full sized circle mill.  Used mills are pretty cheap right now and it can really increase production considerably. 

[treebucker]

brdmkr - the grass is always greener... I've read many debates about swing vs band mills and don't look at it as one being better than the other but instead each has their own strengths and weaknesses. I agree that they would compliment each other well.  I personally would have a hard time dealing with a swinger's wider kerf after being spoiled by a band mill but I will adjust and try to apply each to the tasks they are best suited for. Handling will have to be worked out. Currently we often find we have too many idle hands at the mill site. Board and slab handling have not been a problem.

Fla._Deadheader - Moving the logs to the mill has not been a problem - yet. Loading and turning logs is the #1 problem.  A manual mill doesn't help. Even though we have it equipped with all the handling options it doesn't inspire confidence when you put those 16' oaks on there that are at or near the diameter capacity of the mill. Half the sites have a farm tractor with a loader.  It's mostly loading and turning issues, especially the big ones, that's eating the most time and causing the most fustration. It's not practical to haul a tractor/lift to a site and leave it through the week unattended.  Mud removal, especially with all the rain we've had since buying the mill, has been an on-going problem. I still don't have the heart (gonads?) to tell the customers to get on top of it. Instead, we have been doing it at no charge.  Part of the cost of establishing a good reputation. Is it true that mud is a non-consideration with a swinger?

I'm green when it comes to the practical side of operating a swinger. I've seen some videos of them in operation but it's what they don't show you in there that bites you later. (I still haven't seen how the up/down adjustment is done.) I don't know if it is better to move the mill to the next large log or move the log to the mill?

Mobilesawyer - I've seen some references to the Mobile Dimension in this and other forums. I could not find it, or the Mighty Mite, in my web searches. Does anybody have links to these manufacturers?

Ron Wenrich - define average?  :D We seem to be getting a mix - small cedar up to beyond the capacity (31"d) of our mill. Too many of the latter and more coming. We seem to attract an abundance of 16' oaks that have fat bottoms. I going to do a survey Sunday at a site they just finished logging. The logger told me they were leaving all the butts in a pile and the tops are scattered where they dropped them. I found those large butts yield some beautiful clear boards but they are awkward and many are too big for the mill...time to do some whittling with the chain saw. The slabber is being considered as both a means to quarter the big ones for the band mill, and for making some big slabs.

I'm also considering building my own slabber and not getting a swinger.

Thanks for all of your input.

[Brad_S.]

Welcome to the FF!

I'm wondering if slabbing will get you any further ahead. Slabbing with a chainsaw chain whether on an Alaskan mill, a Peterson or a Lucas is a slow, tedious process. IMO, swingers in their normal operating state excel at producing dimensional lumber.

Perhaps though you should consider moving up to a hydraulic mill to increase production.

[treebucker]

Thanks Brad_S.,
You're right - a slabber will do little to increase production. But it would allow us to make slabs from burls, crotches, stumps and large logs. I'm thinking it could also be used to break down the monsters for sawing on the bandmill. Buying/making a slabber without buying a swing mill would be a stop-gap measure until such time as we look at the next level...whatever that is. I don't see much profit in a little guy cutting excessive amounts of construction lumber in the long run. We are simply doing this to get our name established. But a swing mill would help us get over that hump.

[Brad_S.]

One of the problems with a swing mill slabber for breaking down large logs for resawing on a bandmill is that you can only slab as deep as the mill is rated for, usually only 6 or 8 inches. If you have the fabrication skills to make a slabber that will allow you to halve or quarter logs with no depth restrictions as well as cut slabs (or over sized flitches), IMO you would be further ahead.

If I had fabrication skills, I would attempt to construct a smaller, portable version of this mill http://www.lmsaws.com/chainsawlog.htm which has been popping up in a number of threads recently. I think there is a waiting market for a machine like this stepped down in size and costing in the $10-13K range.

[Mobilesawyer]

Yo Treebucker:

Check out these links. Both have videos avaiable and will send you nice promotional packages.

They both have the ability to produce lumber from logs of any size. They were initialy designed to cut the butt logs from west coast forest operations.

The up sides are: power feed, one, and/or two and/or three peices of lumber in one pass, lumber and slab is returned to the operator, no lumber edging, both have been in existance for a long time. Maximum cant dimension for the Mobile dimension is 8x12 and the Mighty Mite is 12x12, both will produce any size under these dimensions as well.

Down side 5/16" kerf, Mighty Mite is primarily a stationary mill, Mobile Dimension does not have hydraulic log handling, neither mill can slab over their maximum dimension (except for one piece per log if the log is turned and cut from the oppisite side). I also find both to be quite expensive

http://www.mightymitesawmills.com/

http://www.mobilemfg.com/

The above observations are my opiniun as derived from the research I have done to date. I suggest you look into each of these areas if you are still interested in either of these pieces of equipment.

Once again, good luck with your decision.

[Part_Timer]

Mud is just as big a pain to a swinger as it is to a band mill.  The big differance is that you can take 3 or 4 minutes to sharpen your blade on the mill and get going again.  Just get your log open or make that side cut before you sharpen.  The more dirt and grit the more you have to sharpen.

[treebucker]

One of the problems with a swing mill slabber for breaking down large logs for resawing on a bandmill is that you can only slab as deep as the mill is rated for, usually only 6 or 8 inches.

Are you kidding?  They ought to come with a disclaimer.  Thanks- I never suspected.

Building my own slabber is looking more attractive.   My brother works at a good sized small engine shop so the power source, bar and chain are ez. Gearbox, frame and working out the up/down control and power/manual feed.

Thanks for the links Mobilesawyer. Everything is out of my price range.  

Part_Timer - say about 1/10 of the log has mud. Logs average 20" x 8'. How many logs between sharpenings?

[Part_Timer]

I'm running about 500-700 bf between sharpenings on hard wood give or take.  If one in ten is muddy I'd try to time it so that my muddy log was my last log before sharpening.  As long as it's just mud and not small rocks you probably won't notice 1 log out of the 5 in between sharpenings.  A lot of it depends on how muddy is muddy.
How's that for answering a question without actually giving an answer.

[Ianab]

I can see a swingmill working for you if you are dealing with 30"+ logs. Thats what they do best  ;D

Although I guess you could break the log down into cants and resaw them with the bandmill, is the extra work worth the extra board you may get from each cant? I suspect that once you start pulling 8" boards off the swingmill and get used to the way it can cut around defects and change cutting patterns mid-log you may just use it to saw those big logs.

2x timber out of medium sized logs works good too, so long as you are set up properly. Having a tractor / loader of some sort keeps things moving. Having the saw stopped while you fuss about loading the next log manually is what hits production. But if you can haul off the bottom slab and slide in another log and be sawing again in 2 mins the boards will build up fast.

Swingblades arent immune to mud, but I think they tolerate it a lot better. Also the normal indication of a blunt swingblade is your sawing slows down, rather than your blade starting to wander. So you seldom waste boards, you just think to yourself, hmmm... it's not cutting like it should. So you stop, have a drink, sharpen the saw and top up the gas and away you go again  ;D

A slabber, makes sense to have one, not for increased production but to cut those WIDE boards no one else has = Extra $$

If you can take someone up on the offer to help saw up a really big log with a swingblade I think you will be convinced.

Cheers

Ian

[treebucker]

Sorry, this thread title is causing some confusion. I used a poor combination of words. I intend to use that slabber for slabber's sake only- not for production increase.

Part_Timer, I realize asking the mud question is like asking how fast a bandsaw can move through a cut.  Too many variables.  Good job with your answer.

Thanks Ianab,  I have many questions about technique, handling and operation. Most would be answered by following your suggestion. I need to get wet in someone else's pool.  [/size] :D

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Treebucker,
You may have been surprised when Part_timer
mentioned that a slabber on a Peterson or  Lucas
can only cut a slab as thick as its rated capacity,
such as say 10" on my Peterson, but....

have you ever tried to lift or manuever a slab, for example
32" wide by 10 inches thick by 16 to 20 ft. long?

A year or so ago, I cut some slabs 6"by 32"wide by 9' long
out of a blown-down Pecan.  Each slab was over 600 lbs.
I used by truck crane to lift and relocate each one, as I cut.
The customer used two, end-to-end to make a gigantic
cabin table which sits on three tree stumps.  I now have
several additional slabs of it, some 4" thick, and some 2-½"
thick.  They have air dried now for two years under a couple
of tons of other Pecan 8/4 boards - nice and flat.

As Ianab says,  Swingers shine on logs 30" and up.
Below 24",  hydraulic band mills are king.  The manual band
leaves you in the efficiency lurch.   Unless  you have the large
logs, I believe your answer lies in log handling on your mill,
which means hydraulics.    I seek out big logs, so I am happy
as is.
Phil L.                   smiley_blue_bounce

[Brad_S.]

Phil,
I shouldn't speak for Treebucker, but I could see what he was envisioning because I had the same hopes when I first saw a slabber- that you could buck a large log in half or into quarters. To do that would require the ability to drop down 20"s, give or take.

[treebucker]

Thanks Phil L.,
I would never attempt to handle a slab like that without some serious power equipment to assist. A plan has not been devise as yet to make this happen on every job that comes along. So if the customer does not have the equipment other cutting methods would have be employed. I'm simply looking to improve production and expand the possibilities. It may seem to you as though I don't have a clear idea as to how I'm going to employ a swinger and I have not thought this thing completely though. Your right. I'm exploring and have time to get the right answers.

In the long run the plan is to go stationary with the band mill. The swinger, if we get one, would be used for road jobs and construction grade lumber. Customers who wanted the higher recovery rate of the band mill, unless they were offering a very sweet deal, would have to bring the logs to us.

BTW - how efficient are swingers at squaring poles for fences and barns? We seem to find a number of them showing up in the log pile after we get there and the customer realizes he's about to miss an opportunity.

[solodan]

I think I will add a band mill to my operation one day to compliment my Lucas. Lots of good points have been made here. Over 30" swingers are good, over 40" they are great, over 60" it gets tough, but is definately your best choice. 8) I think I would use a bandmill only, on the stuff under about 20"  and over 30" inches a swingmill. It is a toss up for me in the 20" to 30" range. I agree with Ianab, cutting the big logs into cants and then resawing on the band mill doesn't make much sense. The swing mill alone would saw that whole 30" log up before you could move one cant and resaw it on the band mill. :-\  Material handeling is always a slow down, but I have had days when I pick up a few 30" logs in the late morning and saw them up by early afternoon. so I end up with a 1/2 a days work and 1500 bf. 8) that's what is so great about 30"- 35" logs. They are movable, and you don't need to saw as many to reach a daily goal. I just skidded and stacked a deck of logs for a guy, I'm guessing maybe 100 logs and probably only 6000bf, :-\ well I'm  not looking forward to sawing all these on the Lucas :   And one more thing, and I know I will tick some of you off :D, but don't worry about the 3/16 kerf, the band mill looses more material on the planer. :-\ I just planed a bunch of 1 by, half from my Lucas, and half from an LT-70. one pass on each side would have been adaquate on the stuff off the swinger, but I had to go 2 on each side as a result of the LT-70. I guess you could blame it on user error, but this has been the case everytime I have used lumber from both types of mills .    And it is possible to get as large of a cant as you want off a swinger.

[Ianab]

This is what swingblades do best.





The forum calculators work it out around 1,000 bf and 3 tons in the butt log. Best part is we got an excavator to just dump it on a reasonably level spot and never had to move it. The mill sets up in about 15 mins, thats nothing compared to moving a big log :D

Smaller logs you want to set up a simple log deck and set the rails Hi-Lo and roll them in under the high rail, or drive them in on tractor forks. But for big logs, just move the mill

Cheers

Ian

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

I spent the last two days cutting oak trailer decking with my swinger.  As everyone has noted, it is the logs in that "gap" size which are tough.   

The excavation company set up two steel
I beams, welded up which were sixty feet long for log rails.
I set up Lo-Lo, but the beams let the logs drop right over
my side rails onto my tie-size notched bunks.  My bunks have
three sets of notches at optimum positions for cutting  a mix
of sizes of logs.  The far "left" notch allows 36" clearance on
the left of the blade.  The far "right" notch allows 13" clearance.
This allows very fast positioning of three logs, 14" to 20".  It is the
lumpy logs around that 24" range and up which make log rolling a challenge.
A few required the tractor jack assist program.  That slowed me down.
I put large logs one at a time in the center notch.  Otherwise I like
to go ahead and load three logs at the time, so I can get around
300-400 bd ft. per group of three logs.

Treebucker,
A swinger also makes great work of "subdividing" a big log into cants
to be resawn on a band.  That would work well by shuffling
off the cants onto forks.  The forks would be eased in as close as possible
to the travel area of the swinger carriage.  Alternately, you could pivot off
each end of a cant onto some dunnage runners beside your tracks and use
forks to load them in bulk units onto a trailer.  Offload at your permanent band
site in bulk units, also.    That would let you clear a freebie log, for example, quickly,
and get the Peterson broken down and back, so that you could slice away at the
smaller boards on even a manual band mill.  Whaaalah!  No need of hydraulics.

You may think I am biased, but with Peterson's quick double cutting, plus the max.
blade depth of 10-¼",   their brand would be best suited to cant formation.

If you just want to build something to truly quarter big logs or slab, the old fashioned
Alaskan mill or a customized knock-off will actually let you experiment.  Mill is cheap.
Good engines to drive log bars a long time are not as cheap.  Spend most of your
time sharpening chain.  (I did this for about two years.)
Phil L.

[Part_Timer]

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Now ya' have it.

I gave the thousand words, and
Part T gave the pics!

(Since I lost one digital camera off the back of a trailer :'(
- as near as I can decipher, and since my son has had
our pro digital in Africa this week, I couldn't take no pics.)

Phil L.            Glad he's coming home today!  8)

[Part_Timer]

Phil,

If you don't mind my asking what's your son up to in Africa?